Who Should Go?
by zogger on Jul 31, 2011 7:12 PM EDT
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With Lee and Ludwick added, the Pirates have a number of potential candidates they can let go. I see the choice is 2 from Overbay, Diaz, Jones, and Paul. Pearce could also be part of this group but I think the Bucs want to keep him around. Lets look at each one:
Overbay: What can you say, he has been a bust. Not hitting and his defense has not been what we hoped. The only reason you keep him is because you think he will get hot. Not likely.
Diaz: He is hitting .262 with 0 HRs. Zero HRs! His defense is not great. He can only play the OF.
Jones: He is hitting .230 with 10 HRs. His defense is not great either. He can also play 1st and is left handed.
X. Paul: He is hitting .261 with 1HR and 12 SBs. He has speed and a good arm, but takes bad routes and muffs grounders.
I think Overbay and Diaz walk the plank. Jones has some power and could be a good platoon with Ludwick. Plus Jones gives us a left-handed backup at 1B and a left-handed PH off the bench. We need X. Paul to fill in until Presley comes back. Once Presley and Tabata come back, I think X Paul and Jones are gone. Unless Tabata comes back after Sept 1st and the rosters expand, then either X.Paul of Jones stays on the roster.
IMHO, I'd drop Overbay, Diaz, and Jones. I'd bring up Bowker and give him some ABs. He has some power and his defense is better than Jones. Also Bowker can be backup at 1B. I have seen enough of Jones that I think someone else should get a shot.
Poll attached to see what we all think.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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My vote would depend on Cedeno’s condition, because they’re keeping Ciriaco around simply because they’re not sure if Cedeno can play, and if not they need someone else other than Wood who can play short.
If Cedeno goes on the DL, then a roster spot opens up right there, at least for the time being. If not, and/or after Cedeno comes off the DL, then I think sending Ciriaco down would be the best move. So that takes care of 1 of them; as for the other, I think you have no choice but to let go of Overbay. He’s been too bad for too long, and really doesn’t serve a big purpose now that they have Lee, since GJ can play 1st if needed.
Steve Pearce...
That is all I have to say. Wood is a better backup and can play more positions. Goodbye Pearce, Overbay, Diaz, and Paul. Jones has too much pop to jus dump. He could be at least traded. Chase, Tabata, Presley all fit in better.
by Joey Mooney on Jul 31, 2011 7:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Dumping jones would be stupid as hell
He has 10 hrs and a .730ops last time i checked. Hes streaky hopefully he’ll get on a roll here and come along, specially with some better hitters around him.
age of last winning season: 5
Yeah
Jones is hitting better thn either of the guys acquired at the deadline, he should not lose playing time.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion…Lee’s been on fire since the ASG and has better numbers on the season than GJ in every category but walks. As for Ludwick, he’s doing essentially as bad as Jones this month, as he’s hitting 10 points lower(.172 vs .182) and has 1 HR instead of 2, but also has 13 RBI’s vs. Jones’ 9. On the season Ludwick remains slightly better in every category except RBI’s in which he has almost double GJ’s total.
Now that’s not to say I don’t want to keep Jones, cause he is a streaky hitter and if he gets hot it would be nice to have him around. But to say he’s hitting better than Lee or Ludwick, whether you mean recently or this year, is simply wrong.
by Akshay R on Jul 31, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
Although he isnt as good a hitter as Craig Wilson, I’m taking up Jones’ cause the way I did Wilson’s a few years ago. The uninformed, sometimes venomous criticism of this guy is something I simply can’t comprehend. It isn’t his damned fault that this offense is so weak he was plugged into a full time starting role that despite trying to fill was not able. To some of the people here, he is either a full time .850 OPS starter, or useless. The dude was about the only thing to watch for two years. Just because he was overexposed doesn’t mean he isn’t a valuable bench or platoon player. Maybe now that he is not expected to provide starter quality, day in and day out production, he’ll relax and rake a bit. Too much attention has been focused on his deficiencies, to the exclusion of those of most of his compatriots: strikeouts and middling to poor defense. Getting rid of him isn’t going to make the offense better, but it will make it worse against righties. He is under team control and unless he goes in the tank, his 30 plus extra base hits as a part-time player at something above league minimum is hard to replicate. We’ve tried at 12 times the cost, and got nothing for it.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
but jones kinda isnt a valuable bench option
hes not a good fielder, so hes not going to be a defensive replacement. LHP makes him look pretty bad. you pinch hit for him against a RHP and cross your fingers… plus the other team could bring an O’Flaherty in to face him and its over with.
i like jones. but he is what he is.
Yeah well
He’s a hell of a lot more viable than a lot of what I see coming off of major league benches most nights. Spend some time looking at the numbers being put up by guys on benches all over both leagues. Very few people are as productive as Jones. He’s also a better first baseman than people give him credit for. That quirk with throws to second seemed to doom him in a lot of people’s eyes. As for right field, Ludwick didn’t look so hot out in left field. My personal opinion is that a lot of people here undervalue some people and overvalue others.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
by RichieHebner on Aug 1, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
as a starter, Jones barely treads water.
on many other teams, he would be their “overbay”. you say hes productive? fine. you turn him into a part time player/pinch hitter, and those numbers will continue to fall.
He’s been a part-time player/pinch hitter all year. The argument is useless though. You judge hitters by BA and others don’t.
Exactly
His OBP is better than a lot of guys around the league you would consider better hitters at first blush. Being a hitter is knowing when not to hit. I could make the argument that Jones may be too selective for his own good. He wants that lay up down and in and over the plate, when he has demonstrated to my satisfaction that he can scorch an outside pitch to the opposite field. To me, Jones isn’t a case of lack of ability. It is far more frustrating, because his unrealized potential stems from a pigheaded determination that his job is either to hit a home run or take a walk. He could be an on base machine if he just stopped thinking and hit.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Lee
Lee will play everyday….jones and ludwick will platoon when presley comes back….my opinion anyhow
Agreed
I agree …..especially after watchin Cliff Lee almost pick off Diaz while he was daydreaming and tightening his batting gloves for some odd reason while standing 4 ft off 1B, havent seen that since pony league………………
Its goin to be a tough decision on who the other player/players will be dropped….its a battle of 5 guys that are all hitting jus above the Mendoza line…Wood…Overbay…Jones…Paul. Pearce…although Paul is hitting 260 he should be gone when Presley comes back…………………….
I cant believe the Pirates record is even what it is with most of our plyers hitting below 230…..the pitching staff has carried them thus far….
yup. I think Overbay should go, really a glutton of players that can play 1st or relieve Derek Lee if he needs a day off. The writing’s on the wall for Overbay.
Pearce, Wood, Jones can all play 1st base, with Pearce probably being the best defensive 1B out of the bunch there.
I’m assuming the OF will be Tabata(when he comes back), McCutchen, Pressley. Left to right. But with Tabata Out, most likely Pressley, McCutchen, (Diaz,Jones,Ludwick, Diaz). Have to almost assume Ludwick plays right field unless he can cover ground and play left.
its a shame that Jones will probably get to stay and Paul will get DFAd
IMO, Paul can help us alot more than Jones
After further review
I think it will be Ciriaco and Pearce as long as Cedeno is OK.
If not, then Overbay and Pearce.
Pearce has an option while Paul and Brandon Wood do not.
Wood or Pearce have to stay as a back up at 3B .
We also have to look at who goes back once Presley and Doumit come back.
You have to assume Fryer goes back for Doumit, but Presley’s return could be the end for Overbay or possibly Paul.
Once the dust clears in a few days, things should look like this:
Presley LF
Walker 2B
Cutch CF
Lee 1B
Alvarez 3B
Jones/Ludwick RF
Doumit/McKenry C
Cedeno SS
That leaves Wood, Diaz, Paul and the two platoon guys not starting on the bench.
They won't drop Paul
He atleast has some value with his speed, he can be used as a pinch runner, he has a good arm too so he could be a late inning defensive replacement. Overbay and Diaz are as useful as me and you out there and I don’t think we would be kept around too long. Ludwick for sure makes Diaz unnecessary and with Lee and Jones ability to play first makes Overbay unnecessary as well.
Agreed as well
Plus if an injury were to occur to A. McCutchen…who plays center RIGHT NOW.
Diaz, Jones cannot cover CF. I’m not sure on Ludwick.
Paul has to stay just to cover the territory. Now if Tabata, and Pressley were around, then I could see Paul going…but without the healthy bodies to cover the outfield, you probably still need Paul.
Be sure to factor in Diaz's contract
He is set to make 2 million next year. The Pirates could probably eat that, but when you’re talking about small margins, it’s a factor.
Pearce is done
Whether he deserves it or not, his health is an issue and the mgmt group never seemed like they were behind him. They promoted other guys over him and even when they did bring him, he rarely played.
It doesn’t cost a thing to believe and the payoff on a winner is huge!
He hasn't been healthy, true
And hasn’t showed any reason, really, for them to be behind him.
hmm i just assumed that we'd replace one of our outfielders with Ludwick
forgot about ciriaco. yeah he’d go before diaz. I just do not like diaz. At all.
Alvarez?
Could management value his development more than some of his pop this year? He is our 2nd most important player and sending him down (not sure how the options workout) could be a good thing for this team next year and moving forward. I know his situation is screwy cause he got an MLB deal but if Hurdle and Huntington don’t like what they see (and how could they not…13 K’s now in 7 games or in 31 PA). Just a thought
by nagihcimwolves50 on Jul 31, 2011 11:42 PM EDT reply actions
He has an option left. Do they want to burn it now and not have an option next spring
if they need to send him back to AAA to try one more time to work things out?
パトリック
It wouldn’t burn it. One option is good for the season. They can send him up and down as many times as they like this season.
Alvarez
Should be out of options next year, when he came off “rehab assignment” he was optioned to Indy. This would be his 3rd option.
I stand corrected.
Then I wouldn’t be opposed to Alvarez spending the month of Aug. at Indy-not going to happen, I bet.
パトリック
Or maybe not, if an option hasn't been used yet this year.
It would be used if he was sent down simply for non-injury reasons, which is what nagih…50 was asking about.
パトリック
if he was sent down
he would burn his last option.
Apparently, though he could still be sent down next year on an extra option coz he’s been in pro ball less than 5 years. or something like tht.
keep jones
if they were going to get rid of jones i believe i saw rumors that teams like the A’s and the Angels were interested(no putting a link up because i dont feel like finding it, but im possitive teams were interested). also he is our best LH power bat at the moment, atleast until pedro finds his swing. it would be stupid to DFA him. i really want overbay gone. diaz would be next, paul provides plus defense and a good PR off the bench. Pearce still has some value against LH pitching. diaz and overbay have been useless. ciraco will be gone as soon as cedeno,tabata, and presley are healthy.
bench should look like this:
Paul
Jones/ludwick
wood
pearce
tabata/presley.
realized that catcher is missing...
so id say pearce or paul would be gone with fort/doumit on bench.
since Tabata might not be back until september, i think the OF should be:
presley/cutch/ludwick… backups to be diaz and paul…. keep Pearce to backup RF, 1B and 3B. Wood to back up the IF.
that leaves Jones out, IMO. i know Diaz isnt hitting with power, but he really is a better hitter than Jones, plus they are both equally inept in the field.
once Presley is back, i would DFA jones
Diaz and Jones...
When you say better hitter im guessing your talking about average and contact. Which I would agree. Only reason I like Diaz is he has done pretty good lately pinch hitting where jones has struggled. I still like Jones pop. I say Pearce is gone before jones.
by Joey Mooney on Aug 1, 2011 8:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
which would be a shame
because the additions of lee and ludwick make jones extremely expendable, especially with presley coming back and hopefully tabata.
pearce can at least play a few positions
"with Pedro still struggling, Pearce will come in handy"
I have a bad feeling the same will be said of Pedro on Aug. 1, 2012.
パトリック
Pedro
Yes I agree….Pedro will never hit lefties…..he is a "guess " hitter…If he doesnt guess right on the pitch he looks foolish….and even if he guesses right he rarely makes solid contact.
I hope he turns it around and proves me wrong.
career splits for other comparable power hitters vs LHP
ryan howard- .233
adam dunn- .226
carlos pena- .211
p.fielder .256
jay bruce- .234
adam lind- .229
granderson- .223
if Pedro can put up numbers similar to these gentlemen above, and by gentlemen i mean all but Fielder, he could still have a very very good career with the pirates.
by white angus on Aug 1, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yep.
And that jack offa a certain Phillie lefty looked pretty good…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 1, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
how would Adam Lind look as a pirate?
i probably would take him over the rest of that group, even over Bruce.
Prince is very respectable...
SIGN HIM!
by Joey Mooney on Aug 1, 2011 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What about B Wood.
I like him more than Pearce.
by Joey Mooney on Aug 1, 2011 11:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
keep both Pearce and Wood for now
Pearce can back up Lee and Pedro. Wood can back up all 4 infield positions.
You keep Paul and Diaz in the outfield, let Jones walk.
doumit and paul will be the only lefties on the bench if Mckenry gets some starts. presley could also be a part time starter to make sure we’re not too RH dependant
Charlie Morton would tear us up!
I see Presley starting all year long. After Hurdle said Tabata isn’t close but he seemed to run fine almost seems like he could be shut down. I hope not. This team needs Doumit, Presley, and anyone else before all these games with cards and brewers this month.
by Joey Mooney on Aug 1, 2011 11:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So when Chase comes back...
Probably good bye Pearce? I don’t mind Pearce he has shown some signs but the guy been given a lot of chances. He better start making the best out of every at bat and time on the field.
by Joey Mooney on Aug 1, 2011 11:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
doesnt matter
Ludwick is now the RF, when presley comes back that is… the team should waive Jones to see if any team claims him then go for a trade.
also i happen to like jones a lot more than pearce.
just the fact that he has actually showed that he can hit, pearce cant stay healthy long enough to prove that.
pop means little when you arent a good hitter/fielder
i understand keeping him; you see the double digit homers and ya get all warm and squishy inside. then you see just how often he actually hits a ball, then you see him trying to catch a line drive… ugh.
Presley
Has anyone heard anything about when Presley is expected back? I would think his DL time is about up. Has anyone heard if he will be read, will need rehab or what the plan is?
Just curious and not sure where to look!
I am not so sure about that for three reasons. First, the FO seemed to be focused on buying rather than selling. Second, nobody in their right mind would claim Diaz on waivers and pick-up his full salary. Third, he strikes me as a third-tier type of player who gets traded or released in August, but ignored at the deadline.
I can't fathom any universe in which Diaz is more valuable than Jones.
It’s worth eating Diaz’s remaining salary the next year and 2 months just to have the better player in Jones. Just consider it paying Jones his actual value as opposed to his pre-arbitration salary.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
how is jones a better player?
both are now going to be part time players. jones isnt as good a hitter as diaz despite Matt’s lack of slugging this season. jones is now behind lee and ludwick. he is not a good pinch hitter and hes not a defensive replacement.
if anything, Paul should be kept over both diaz and jones
Garrett Jones career as PH: .292/.379/.375
Diaz career as PH: .271/.304/.354
Paul career as PH: .119/.140/.238 (wow, I expected it to be bad, but…)
They both kind of suck at defense, but Jones plays first too. If by hitting you mean only average, then yes Diaz is a better hitter this year. If you take virtually any other measure of hitting performance Jones is better this year. If you look at career numbers, they are fairly comparable overall as hitters.
Paul’s defense, despite reputation, has been just as bad as either of these two other than his strong arm. Despite his stolen bases, he is terrible in actual baserunning. I think it goes without saying that he’s far below average at the plate. He can steal bases and throw, but IMO he’s not even close to as valuable as the other two.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
ridiculous. Paul's defense is better than jones/diaz put together
1. his arm
2. his speed
3. he can back up all 3 outfield spots
yes, Paul has been bad at PH. i definately agree to this. but jones is not going to be playing much 1B at all once Lee arrives. i mean, just how many games did jones take away from Overbay???
On paper Paul should be good at defense, yes. He also had/has a reputation (at least as far as I could gather) for good defense. However, when I’ve seen him play in the outfield he looks like he has no clue what he is doing and is constantly bobbling the ball. His arm is good, still agree with that. He probably is a little better fielder than Jones or Diaz but he hasn’t shown it to me this year and it’s not nearly enough to make up for his Ciriacoan hitting anyways.
Jones may not play first much with Lee, but now that he’s opposite handed from the first baseman, he might start every once in a while if Lee has really bad numbers against a particular righty.
By the same token, how many games has Paul taken away from McCutchen? You imply that it’s not worthwhile that Jones plays first base since we have an everyday player there, so why not the same with Paul in CF?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
about Paul...
youre cherry picking. his D is just fine. cutch has made some seriously bad plays this year, but because hes Cutch, we dont dare say his defense stinks. (for the record, it doesnt. nobody is perfect, including him)
paul can get to the gaps faster than anyone not numbered 22. his arm is impressive and very accurate. players sometimes bobble the ball. stop expecting perfection from these guys and ROOT for your team, including the bench guys.
With all due respect
You are cherry picking negative anecdotals to diminish Jones. He is a better hitter than Diaz, Paul, Presley, Pearce, Wood and until I see evidence to the contrary, Alvarez. You may not like it, but it!s true. Unless he’s seriously slumping, he is often on base twice or three times a night. That’s pretty damned valuable. And aside from going back on hard liners, he is not bad in right. ,ost often, he is just fine at first. Give the guy a break.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
jones is NOT a better hitter than Presley or Pearce or even Diaz
just because he has 10 HRS doesnt make him a good hitter. his bat disappears for weeks at a time, is not a good situational bat and his Defense doesnt allow for the team to keep his bat out there while we wait.
why do you think Diaz was brought in in the first place? because jones is not a full time guy, and his skillset doesnt do us any good on the bench either.
for the record, i like jones
but with lee at 1B and ludwick/tabata/presley/cutch/diaz/paul, just how much is jones going to be contributing?
but hes not going anywhere. tabata probably wont be back until the rosters expand, so his job is safe.
He actually is
a better hitter than all of them. His slumps are characteristic of the sorts of slumps big guys with long swings often have. Presley may turn out to be a better hitter, and we should expect Alvarez will be, but neither has anywhere near the body of work to demonstrate that he is. Diaz as of the year before last (and I am a big fan of his) was a better average hitter. He still is. Jones draws walks, he hits the ball hard and can deliver a double or a home run more frequently than any of the others. even slumping, his OPS against righties is more than respectable. So he’s a platoon player after around two plus big league seasons in actual service time. So was Richie Hebner, so was Al Oliver, so was Willie Stargell and so was Andy Van Slyke. Jones’ biggest drawbacks and they are big) are lack of an appropriate defensive capability and his age. But to say he isn’t a good hitter for his role as a 1/2 to 60% player is just plain unfair. As a part time player, he is tied for third in doubles, is second (before Lee and Ludwick arrived) in home runs, is third in hits, and is third in walks. Ignored is the fact that he almost never is hurt (from what I hear his conditioning is superb). Is he ever going to be a regular? No. That doesn’t mean he can’t hit, especially if used properly. To be honest, I think he would do better if used against certain pitchers and types of pitchers, including some lefties, rather than as part of a straight R/L platoon. Same with Ludwick. When Presley gets back, I’d rotate Jones, Ludwick and Presley around the corners depending on the pitchers on both sides and get them all some at bats.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
For people who bring up the $2M owed to Diaz next year...
Remember that the Pirates ate $2M in salary to release Ramon Vasquez. And of course there’s Aki.
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