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Pirates Lose To Brewers, 2-1, 10 Innings

Sometimes I wonder what a Brewers season-ticket holder must think of the fact that the Pirates have actually played pretty well most of this year. That fact must seem so at odds with their experience of the Pirates as to be nearly unbelievable.

It looks like the Bucs at least got a good start out of Charlie Morton today - his line was nearly identical to Shaun Marcum's - so at least things looked respectable. Joel Hanrahan came on to get the last out in the eighth with the Bucs ahead 1-0 and struck out Nyjer Morgan, but it was on a wild pitch and Morgan made it to first. Then Ryan Braun singled in the tying run, and Chris Resop gave up the winning run in the tenth.

Not much news otherwise, but the Pirates have promoted Vince Payne and Orlando Castro to West Virginia. Castro looks like the more interesting of the two right now - he dominated the Gulf Coast League and pitched reasonably well in State College. He's also 19 years old and is from Honduras, a country that doesn't produce a ton of prospects, so it's a little surprising that he's his far along.

I'll put up a draft signing thread tomorrow, but in the meantime: I'd put the over-under on the number of players the Pirates will sign between now and then at about 2.9. One of those will almost certainly be Gerrit Cole. What do you say - over or under? 

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Charlie how is Columbus?

Glad to know I’ll have some more Buccos fans in the area. Is your new job at the university?

by Zach Buccos on Aug 14, 2011 9:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Not the university you’re thinking of, but yes.

I’ll send you an email here in a bit. I’m going to be at at least one of the Columbus/Indianapolis games here in a couple weeks if you want to meet me.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 14, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh meaning to ask you charlie

by academic job, you mean teaching? just trying to put the feelers out there for when i graduate in the next year or so….education major lol

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 14, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I blame Morton

He gave up a run! The bastard!

We need Roth to come by and threaten to punch Charlie in the face, them he won’t give up any more runs for a while.

by maguro on Aug 14, 2011 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Charlie: Hanrahan actually got the last out of the eighth inning twice.

No jinx no jinx no jinx.

by Suffering Buc on Aug 14, 2011 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I would just like to point out

that because a tactic didn’t work doesn’t mean it wasn’t a sound tactic.

I’m just concerned Hurdle will think that because he’s brought in Hanrahan what, four times for the four-out save and twice it didn’t work? He’ll start to think it’s a bad tactic.

But then, the sac bunt so seldom seems to work for us but Hurdle keeps trying it anyway, so maybe I shouldn’t be worried about him actually, y’know, learning anything.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

although at that point, i did think he was overmanaging. Not all situations call for the 4 out save, and Veras facing Nyjer Morgan with RISP and 2 outs doesnt terribly worry me. It’s not a bad move to bring in Hanrahan there, but its not terribly high leverage.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is terribly high-leverage

if you’re effing sick and tired of losing in Milwaukee and you’d like to get that monkey off your back and everyone else’s and get it into their heads that a game at Bad Beer Park shouldn’t be an automatic loss.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

well yeah

but essentially, facing Nyjer Morgan in that scenario is a job I think Veras is capable of handling— which is my point.

If it was Braun, OTOH, I’d bring in Hanrahan (and we all know how that worked out :)

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

You have one game you have to win or your dog dies.

Do you send to the mound the July Charlie Morton, or do you think James McDonald is capable of handling it?

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

i admit if this was meant to be rhetorical, i didnt get it

I actually looked up the numbers, thought about it, and decided on McDonald. Would you elaborate your point a bit, though? (Has nothing to do with the fact that Morton’s dog was popular at some point, does it?)

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I really want to beat the Brewers and end the Miller Madness,

I don’t want to trust my lead to a guy I “think” ought to be capable, I’m going to send out the guy I KNOW is capable. I’m not saying Veras is bad, I’m saying Hammer is your best option.

And really, you’d send out our No. 5 starter over a guy who just put up, what, 24 scoreless? OK, I guess.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, if you wanted to beat the Brewers, now, here, I guess you can send out Hanrahan. The reason I said Veras was fine given the leverage of the situation was to distinguish it from the earlier games where we were screaming for Hanrahan, when the game would certainly be lost without him pitching while we kept Beimel in, or something similar.

And really, you’d send out our No. 5 starter over a guy who just put up, what, 24 scoreless?

I thought you said July Charlie Morton for a reason— here’s his numbers in July— Link. As I said, it was close but given what McDonald has done with the Pirates, I’d take that over a guy with a 5 ERA, and 1.7 WHIP.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Man, I’m taking my dog home and saying screw this baseball game.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

hehe

good thing i dont have a dog… although in fairness, I half expected bucdaddy was coming up with a wisecrack after I answered about dogs, Charlie Morton, and old McDonald’s farm!

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t care whose dog it is. If there’s a dog at stake, screw baseball.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Number of classless fans at the Brew Crew Ball site

it’s really amazing how much stock they put into the regular season. Of course, the truth hurts, and the Milwaukee Brewers are one of the least successful franchises in all of MLB, with only one pennant to show for the last 41 years.

It’s funny whenever they do a look back at Brewers history over there, and it’s the likes of Fred Stanley, or some other mediocre player from the past. I’m tempted to root for the Phillies if they play Milwaukee in the playoffs.

by SteelStealth on Aug 14, 2011 9:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Over 2.9

I must admit I ll be quite pissed if the draft signings from here on don’t exceed 3. My sense is theyare waiting to figure out if Bell will sign before moving forward with other ones and I m holding out (irrational) hope that there’s a couple of other already for signings we haven’t heard of.

Still, if we don’t get Cole, bell and holmes, I ll be disappointed. I d like brown ahead of holmes and a couple of other names that have been thrown around added to the list ESP if bell refuses to sign ( although at this point it looks more money than college).

by BurgherKing on Aug 14, 2011 9:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I’ll take the under.

by Thunder on Aug 14, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am never going to Miller Park again.

And BWood is awful. I called it, right before he floundered. Nearby Brewers’ fans were laughing, and rightly so – not only because I called it, but at the pathetic result.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 14, 2011 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Joke

If Alvarez could stay above the Mendoza line and field the ball, we wouldn’t need to be putting in cast-off’s from other teams. Don’t worry someone will be saying the same thing you are about Pedro in two years, but at least his floundering ass will be gone.

by Pilgrim34 on Aug 14, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

By saying "Joke,"

Do you mean your post is a joke, or that you think Pedro is a joke, or BWood is a joke?

Because if you think Pedro won’t be in PGH in 2 years, I think you’ll find yourself mistaken.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 14, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joke

Your comment is a joke! Wood is a guy we are taking a flyer on! Pedro is one of “our” first rounders! Like I stated, if Pedro was doing his job he would have been in the game. You would not replace a third baseman that was hitting for power. Wait, never mind, why I am even saying power I should just be saying hitting at all. Yes, B-Wood may be a joke but the real shame is that a manager would even consider him a better alternative than your starting third baseman who is considered one of your “franchise” players. I hope they don’t put his picture on the tickets next year. By the way, I like Neal and the front office and I will take the over. Sometimes when you get a guy that is hyped and represented by Boras, it just doesn’t work out. Your scouting team missed or you fell into the trap of all the hype. At least now, we know he can hit at Triple AAA! Sorry, I hope I am wrong but I think Pedro will be a bust and gone in two years or irrelavent.

by Pilgrim34 on Aug 14, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

ahahahahahahah

and the first post i read blames the loss on pedro in a round about way. so sad

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 15, 2011 6:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okaayyy...

I don’t see where I mentioned Pedro in my post or anything, but you’re entitled to your opinion.

And I don’t see where I called anyone a “joke.”

Whatever floats your boat.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll go to Miller Park again when the Brewers suck again.

It’s gotta happen at some point.

See: The Astros.

So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.

by IAPiratesFan on Aug 14, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

BWood has been surprisingly non awful

if I needed a 25 man roster spot, I can think of 3 guys straightaway that I’d remove before him.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

B-Wood

I actually agree that he is not a bad player. He is a good bench player that should get spot starts unless he can prove he is better. At this point, he has shown some pop but he has not been able to make consistent contact. My point was not that he was a joke, but that it was a joke he had to replace Pedro. If Pedro was doing a decent job, the guy would have still been in the game. You would have double-switched at another position. The fact that the manager is so willing to yank Pedro should tell you something.

by Pilgrim34 on Aug 15, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Pedro was doing a decent job, the guy would have still been in the game.

I am not sure this factors into how Hurdle double switches. He’s way too trigger happy on these things. The longer he’s around, the more I m pissed with his game management. We’ll see over time if any players make strides offensively under his watch.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

And how do you feel about

replacing Jones with Pearce?

You neglected to mention that in the midst of your anti-Pedro rant.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

bringing in pearce

to face a righty was just mindboggling. then to leave doumit on the bench in case we needed him to ph for a pitcher was equally absurd. wasnt there a couple on for fort when he came up?

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 15, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over

Tomorrow we get Tabata back, right? Hooray for that.

by Mr. E on Aug 14, 2011 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't count on it.

I would have thought we would have heard something tonight.

by Thunder on Aug 14, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want to get Tabata back and win the series against the Cards.

As far as the draft goes, I think both Bell and Cole sign. I’ve said it might take as much as $6 million to get Bell. I’m going to back off that a bit, but I still bet they pay him huge money to ink on the dotted line-$4.5-$5 million.

パトリック

by patthatt on Aug 14, 2011 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Over

3 or 4, besides Cole I have no idea who.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Aug 14, 2011 11:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I know that this site has already given the move its blessing, but are we really so sure that the increase in ticket prices for next year is a good thing? I’m certain that we would all agree that if the move ends up costing the team money, then the decision would be a mistake. And if this team continues to tank (and I’m not sure that there’s a great reason to believe that they won’t), then I’m fearful PNC Park might look like a ghost town next year, which doesn’t do anybody any good. Does anyone know whether this decision really needed to be made now? Couldn’t the team have waited until after the season was over and weigh everything at that time?

by dirkcalloway on Aug 14, 2011 11:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

They waited a week too long to announce it.

Had they announced it while the Pirates were still winning…it probably would have gone almost without notice. Instead…they were a week deep going into the tank.

My concern is that they get too greedy and raise the prices too much, and actually make it less likely for fans to go to games. They have the excuse that there have been no price bumps since the stadium opened, and that we have some of the lowest prices in the majors. However, the Pirates FO wants to dress up Ludwick and Lee as their poster children for being willing to spend money to improve the team. To my mind, they haven’t done a thing other than to bury one of their mistakes (Overbay). I don’t think we’ll get a true feel until the offseason (when I figure the actual % increase will be made known) and we see if there is any significant addition to the roster through free agency or trade. A big increase in ticket prices and no significant improvement in the roster would spell big trouble.

by Thunder on Aug 14, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t see why they had to announce anything. If this team loses 90-plus games (which is still a decent possibility), they will have essentially lost any goodwill that this season might have produced, and, as a result, the increase in ticket prices might have the unintended result of actually producing less money than it otherwise would have if they had simply left the prices as they were. I’m not sure how much of an ‘excuse’ the fact that they haven’t raised ticket prices in ten years will be. The organization certainly would have raised prices if they could have; they didn’t because they’ve put out a shitty product all that time. I assume that they thought that the franchise was past that—and so I guess that’s why they felt the need to announce the increase so soon—but the fans aren’t THAT stupid. If it’s clear that the organization isn’t past the shitty-product stage (and from the lackluster performance of the minor leagues this year, coupled with this August tank job, I’m pretty sure they aren’t), an increase in prices will be an awfully tough sell next year. They should have just kept their mouths shut. But they’re not really good at that.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 14, 2011 11:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They didn’t “announce” anything, did they? They simply confirmed to the trib that the prices would go up. Coonelly basically said the same thing to me and the other bloggers a month ago, when the pirates were winning.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 15, 2011 12:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, no. The front office screwed up somehow — we just have to find out how they did it.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Aug 15, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I know that Coonelly said it a month ago. But did he have to? Wasn’t the decision premature? Obviously, ticket increases don’t automatically result in a team making money; if they did, the team would have certainly raised them before this. There is clearly some risk involved, and, as a result, I just don’t see why the Pirates needed to even start talking publicly about an increase in ticket prices next year before they were sure what kind of season 2011 was going to be. In early July, they were apparently convinced it was going to be a great one. But that looks like a miscalculation here in mid-August…As an aside, you run a good site here, but does every single comment that questions an action of the front office have to be met with a snide remark like the one below? Why does everyone who is not in lockstep with Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington have to be viewed as an idiot? I know that some commenters here are nothing but apologists for the front office, and I guess that won’t change, but do you really want the site to be known for that sort of thing? Can’t people with differing opinions on a point come here to have a constructive discussion about it without people resorting to the sarcastic, defensive “Obviously we need to figure out how the front office screwed up” posts?

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 12:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Correction: The comment that I was referring to is above, not below. Sorry.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 12:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I know that some commenters here are nothing but apologists for the front office, and I guess that won’t change, but do you really want the site to be known for that sort of thing?

Yeah, that kinda talk is gonna buy you real credibility around here. It’s not a comment by Charlie, so what’s he supposed to do? Run off a warning to every one who makes a snide remark? What’s he supposed to do with someone who drags in something totally off-topic to which an answer is far from clear?

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

They were going to need to raise ticket prices sooner or later. Lucky for them it happened in the middle of a season where they performed above expectations.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but they have to continue to perform above expectations throughout the entire 2011 season. I believe that they’ve won 3 out of their last 18 games. If things continue in this way (or even close to this way), they’re not really going to be able to sell the idea that they performed above expectations. Fair or not, fans’ expectations changed somewhere along the way, and a 71-91 record might not have all that many people clamoring for season tickets next year.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 12:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, they don’t have to. They had to raise ticket prices anyway. It’s a benefit if they have a solid season while raising them, but it still had to happen.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gee...

in the interests of total accuracy, I guess I should have said the Pirates “confirmed” they were going to raise prices, instead of “announced”. I’d say that the Pirates president confirming it to a major media outlet (one of 2 local newspapers), is just as good as announcing it. With that confirmation hitting the media just after a 10 game losing streak, and worst homestand in team history, the timing of the news was “unlucky”, moreso than if it had occurred during a winning streak or early in the losing streak (say after the Phillies series). Which was my point.

Don’t misunderstand me. The main reason for the increase is valid. I don’t have a problem with an increase, I am far enough away from Pittsburgh that my actual attendance at games will be limited to occasional visits back to the area. I’d be going when I visit, no matter what price.

However…we know that there is a line where if the increase is too large, the increased fan support from this season goes away due to lack of ability to pay from the fan standpoint. I could take it to the ridiculous point and say that Pirates tickets will be the same price as the Mets and Yankees, but we know that won’t be the level of increase. If the Pirates have done their due diligence, they will go with an increase that the market will bear. If they haven’t, and take too large a chunk, it causes problems. As I said in my original comment, we won’t know till after the season, when they announce the actual prices, whether they go a bridge too far.

by Thunder on Aug 15, 2011 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is at least the third time I've seen you say something to the effect of

If the Pirates have done their due diligence, they will go with an increase that the market will bear. If they haven’t, and take too large a chunk, it causes problems

I don’t understand what evidence you have that a multi-million dollar business like this wouldn’t do a little market research. I get that you really don’t like the FO, but there is no way they just throw darts at a board.

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 15, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

If this team loses 90-plus games (which is still a decent possibility), they will have essentially lost any goodwill that this season might have produced

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. If the team is in first place or close after April, PNC Park will be sold out.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course it will. But what does that have to do with this discussion? They’ve never raised ticket prices before, assumedly because they didn’t think the Pirates would be in first place in April (or ever). Why would anyone think they’re going to be in first place next year?…Anyway, like I said, I don’t really understand your comment. Are you saying you would raise prices every year on the chance that the team turns out to be good?

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 12:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

no

i m saying it doesnt matter. They were asked a question, felt it was not a bad time to let people know, so they let them know. End of story.

The point of bringing it up was to contradict your point that raising prices would result in less tickets being sold— it may, of course, as with any business decision, but there is little reason to consider that too heavily.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Truth is, Ron Cook doesn’t even know where PNC park is.

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Aug 15, 2011 10:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Ha!

rec’d.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is little reason to consider too heavily that raising ticket prices will result in fewer tickets being scared? Why’s that? I’m sure it’s a concern of theirs because otherwise, like I said, they would have done it long before this. It seems that they were convinced that they were bulletproof because they had a pretty good record at mid-season. Again, that might have been a serious miscalculation. I guess we’ll see in April.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 12:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Nobody was convinced they were bulletproof. They needed to raise prices. Now is as good a time as any.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Coonelly basically told us that they had been thinking about it for years, and that they’re lagging way behind comparable markets in terms if gate receipts. Of course we’ll have to wait to see how big the increases are, but I bet they will be small enough that pnc will still be an entertainment bargain, and by next April, this will be as irrelevant as Tony Sanchez twittergate is now. Dirk, I can’t speak to your motivations, but judging from a lot of the nonsensical stuff about this i heard on 93.7 this weekend, a lot of people just like to complain.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 15, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. They had to raise them. It helps if they have a solid season while it happens, but they had to do it anyway.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t hear any of the discussion on 93.7, and I wouldn’t say that I’m ‘complaining’ necessarily. If the team is good next year, I’ll go to games, and if it isn’t good, I won’t. The ticket increase is irrelevant to me personally. It’s just that I’m concerned that the front office may have made a rash decision based on the misguided belief that this team was actually better than it was. If this team finishes very poorly, I think the fanbase is going to be rather unhappy, and they wouldn’t be particularly excited about going to see Pirate baseball next year, even without a ticket increase. And so if you given them an additional reason not to show up—even if it’s just a dollar more a ticket—I’m guessing a lot of them won’t.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 1:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t think the price being raised had anything to do with the performance of the team.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s quite a coincidence then. If they really need to increase ticket prices and the play of the team on the field has no relation to it, you’d think they would have done it prior to this season.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 1:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think the ticket prices were going to happen. The timing was just based on the team having shown improvement. You’re suggesting that they would not raise ticket prices if the team would not have improved. I am suggesting that they were going to raise prices regardless, and they didn’t deny it when asked. They haven’t announced anything, I imagine that would come in the offseason.
I think ticket prices needed to be raised, and were going to be raised this offseason no matter what.

You have your opinion, I have mine, and both of us repeating them isn’t getting anyone anywhere because there’s no fact to base any opinion in. It’s speculation on everyone’s part and an argument that will never end.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

The sense I got from talking to Coonelly is that the price increase might have occurred even if this season had been awful. I think they think that they just can’t take the next step with prices this low.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 15, 2011 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s exactly my opinion. That it was going to happen regardless.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

That may very well be the case. I tend to doubt it, but I certainly don’t have a way of proving otherwise. It just seems like a helluva coincidence. Team sucks for 10 years at PNC Park: No ticket price increase. Team has a very good stretch in the middle of 2011: Team states that it will be raising ticket prices. Again, I don’t care what they do. They’re the boss. If they think it’s good for business, they should raise prices. I just think that there’s a genuine risk involved, a risk that they didn’t think that they were going to have to deal with because, at the time of the decision, the city was in love with the Pirates. That isn’t true anymore, not by a longshot. But who knows? Maybe it will be true again by the time the season ends.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 6:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The timing of "announcing" the increase

was dictated by the question asked of FC, “Are you thinking of raising ticket prices?”

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

SO

When FC is asked that questions, these are the possible outcomes.
1. He says yes, and pitchforks and torches come out because of the “fishy” timing of the announcement.
2. He says no, and still raises them, and pitchforks and torches come out because he lied.

My goodness, its a f’ing ticket increase. They raised the prices at my local theater recently, fishy, because of the recent success of “movies”. Prices go up, and its been 10 years. Take it easy

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 15, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

if you, or anyone else here, believes that the decision to raise ticket prices had absolutely nothing to do with the performance of the team on the field earlier this season, you are entitled to that opinion. i have no reason to believe that that is true, however, because, as i’ve said three times now, it would be too coincidental. if raising ticket prices was so necessary—and such a fail-safe way to increase revenue—the organization would have surely done it in 2008 and/or 2009 and/or 2010; it seems obvious to me that they didn’t do it in those years because the product on the field was horrible, and they feared a backlash from the paying customers. i know that coonelly told charlie that the team was thinking of doing it next year anyway, regardless of the team’s record. i don’t necessarily accept everything that frank coonelly says at face value. sometimes people are disingenuous. i know that a lot of commenters here are reluctant to admit this, but sometimes the pirates make bad decisions, business and otherwise. hopefully, that won’t be the case here, for the sake of all pirate fans.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

where did i say that the move was ‘fishy’? it wasn’t fishy at all. it was driven by what they saw as a turning-of-the-corner by the franchise, which, in turn, rejuvenated the fan base. i just fear that the corner has not been turned, and that might result in lower revenue than they would have had if they had kept the ticket prices the same.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

"i don’t necessarily accept everything that frank coonelly says at face value"

Well, there you go. You could have said that, and saved a lot of typing.

Not that you’re not allowed to type, or anything….. Heaven forbid that I be construed as a snarky front office apologist and a shouter-down of opposing views.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t understand your comment. is accepting on faith everything that the front office says a prerequisite for posting here? just because frank coonelly said that the pirates were considering raising ticket prices regardless of the team’s record this season, does that mean that the pirates would have stated at mid-season that ticket prices were going up next year even if they were in last place and 25 games under .500? i tend to think not. anyway, i guess i’ve lost sight of the dispute here. my point is that i’m concerned that the decision to raise ticket prices may have been short-sighted, based on a level of play that the team was likely unable to sustain (and did not sustain), and i’m concerned that it may not generate the revenue that the front office had hoped. if you want to turn this into an everybody-who-disputes-anything-that-the-front-office-does-is-a-complete-idiot screed, then i guess that’s your prerogative. if that’s not what you’re saying, then i apologize, but i just don’t understand your first three sentences above.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

is accepting on faith everything that the front office says a prerequisite for posting here?

No, not at all.

just because frank coonelly said that the pirates were considering raising ticket prices regardless of the team’s record this season, does that mean that the pirates would have stated at mid-season that ticket prices were going up next year even if they were in last place and 25 games under .500?

No, but he was asked, and he answered. Whether you “take it at face value” or not is your prerogative. But seeing as how Charlie has said, “They simply confirmed to the trib that the prices would go up. Coonelly basically said the same thing to me and the other bloggers a month ago, when the pirates were winning.,” I’m going to tend to take him at his word, rather than your skeptic view. Unless you were there, of course, but since you weren’t forthcoming with that info, I’m going to assume you weren’t.
if you want to turn this into an everybody-who-disputes-anything-that-the-front-office-does-is-a-complete-idiot screed, then i guess that’s your prerogative. if that’s not what you’re saying, then i apologize, but i just don’t understand your first three sentences above.

Read what I wrote again, then. I said that if you had simply said that you don’t particularly trust / accept what FC says, you could have saved a lot of “breath.”

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think everyone gets your point, as also that you have nothing to substantiate it, apart from raising the possibility it might backfire. Got it— i don’t buy it, but i get it. Your subsequent strawman about posting here and front office yes men is out-of-place and necessary. Save your breath.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So there you go, nobody else has any reason to believe you either. “Too coincidental” is not the most solid reasoning in the worst.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

why are you guys so angry?

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

anyway, this franchise has a lot of skeptics. it’s earned them. you guys are not among them. that’s fine. and if you were the only people that the front office had to win over, they’d be golden. but it’s silly not to at least acknowledge that this organization has some public relations hurdles to get over. thus, to suggest, as some did at the outset of this discussion, that the ticket increase “isn’t a big deal” or that the fans “should just get over it” is to cavalierly dismiss something that could turn into a significant problem.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, you're wrong

there’s plenty of people skeptical about different aspects of the FO, and most people think that a nominal increase in ticket prices is very low on the list of issues they have.

Further, and not speaking for others but purely myself, i’ll also correct your statement that I am suggesting ‘the fans "should just get over it"’. I am actually claiming the fans will get over it. For the time being, I’ll worry about the FO’s shortcomings in drafting, developing and signing players over random speculation that ticket price increases could be an issue with the fanbase.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, i’m wrong? when was i wrong the first time? anyway, seriously, i was simply making a narrow point about the wisdom of the decision to raise ticket prices, and, even more narrowly, the decision to talk about the increase in ticket prices before they had to. (when asked the question, coonelly simply could have said, “we’ll weigh all the factors and decide after the season is over.” in my opinion, that would have been the more prudent course.) anyway, i don’t understand why the front office’s shortcomings in drafting, developing and signing players precludes comments on any other aspect of their tenure. lastly, for someone who criticized me for not having anything to substantiate my point—a point that was basically just an opinion with regard to something that cannot be proven or disproven at this time—it seems rather weak to say that ‘most people’ are unconcerned about an increase in ticket prices. how would we know this until the point that the increase goes into effect and tickets go on sale? as i’ve said several times now, if ticket price increases—even nominal ones—are no big deal and something the fans will surely get over, why wouldn’t the pirates have done so long before this?

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, i’m wrong? when was i wrong the first time?

When you suggested that this was a site that supported the FO’s moves blindly and that you felt like you were being picked on for having a contrarian viewpoint.

anyway, seriously, i was simply making a narrow point about the wisdom of the decision to raise ticket prices

Yes, I know, I got it. Let it go, already.

anyway, i don’t understand why the front office’s shortcomings in drafting, developing and signing players precludes comments on any other aspect of their tenure

It doesnt. As long as you spend an appropriate amount of time on it.

it seems rather weak to say that ‘most people’ are unconcerned about an increase in ticket prices

Yes, I should have clarified it was my opinion wrt “most people on this site”. Unlike you, I will spend one line on the clarification, and not a thesis. It’s an opinion, and I recognize it as such. If more people are concerned, we will undoubtedly find out over time.

why wouldn’t the pirates have done so long before this?

I dont know, of course, but here’s (what I feel is) a reasonable guess: maybe the Bucs considered this, decided on what the operating expenses would be and decided they could do with current prices. Maybe they now feel that the expenses would increase (perhaps because they wish to invest directly in the ML team, while maintaining amateur scouting and minor league expenses), and have decided they will need some more directly out of the ticket sales?

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

"(when asked the question, coonelly simply could have said, "we’ll weigh all the factors and decide after the season is over." in my opinion, that would have been the more prudent course.)"

Your opinion is, of course, something you’re entitled to.

In my opinion. has FC answered the question as you suggest, he gets thrown into the “Teh FO is being seekrit agin / open teh books! / what am they hidingz?” bag.

Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t share the feeling that the front office has been as unfairly persecuted as some here seem to think. there is fair criticism and there is unfair criticism. (the type of person whom you mimic above isn’t someone who i feel is worth getting all worked up about.) i think that it’s just good business not to tip your hand before you have to, and IF coonelly ended up getting criticized for his non-answer (in my opinion, there would have been very little criticism because there was no real need for a decision to be made at that time), the team would have been justified in ignoring it because such criticism would have been unfair…..as for my friend, the esteemed burgherking, i guess it’s also a matter of opinion as to what constitutes ‘an appropriate amount of time’ to devote to any topic. i’ll just say that you and i seem to have devoted about the same amount of time to this one.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just stop talking. I’m honestly tired of reading your walls of poorly formatted, difficult to read text that actually say things that could be sai in a sentence or two.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

this isn’t a very nice thing to say. this is my first time posting here, but before i did, i read over the parameters for comments. they said something like, “don’t write anything that you would not say to someone in person.” i find it difficult to believe that you are so rude—or such a tough guy—that you would say such things to my face. whatever happened to civility? i asked before, but nobody answered: what are you all so angry about? if you disagree with someone’s position, either ignore it or explain to him your opposing point-of-review. the nastiness and hostility seems uncalled for.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not angry, nor a tough guy. And I would certainly say that to your face if you continually repeated the same opinion while saying nothing. You said your opinion, other people presented their opinions. You continually respond, yeah but my opinion.

As I’ve stated several times in this thread, it’s complete speculation, and there is no fact to base it in, so this argument will continue in circles. But you keep stating your opinion over and over, and in such a longwinded manner.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Which I why I keep proposing a mutual “stop it”. But you just keep going.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can stop it any time you want. just don’t write anything else. anyway, last word from me: there are no more facts to support the ‘i believe coonelly was telling the truth’ position than there are to support the ‘i think coonelly was being disingenuous’ position. actually, the people who think he was being disingenuous about raising ticket prices regardless of the team’s record can at least point to the fact that he has not increased ticket prices the last three years when the team has had poor seasons. i’m not sure what the other side has to go on, unless they simply take everyone at his or her word.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

."i’ll just say that you and i seem to have devoted about the same amount of time to this one"

I count 16 comments / replies you’ve made

I have made four (this is my fifth).

16 ≠ 5.

Just sayin’.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

he was talking about me

and I’ve made 7. Anyway, I’ve made my point, and he probably is right in that I m beating the same dead equine over and over. If he doesn’t get it yet, he won’t, so I m gonna quit on this one!

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

until next time, my friends. have a good day.

by dirkcalloway on Aug 15, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am going over....

but I hope it is under.

The way I figure it, if Bell is going to sign, tomorrow will be Cole and Bell, and thats it. The way it will probably go down, is if NH get’s a sense Bell isnt going to happen by early evening, he firms up a couple of the outstanding back up options, and we probably finish with 3-4 signings (Watts, Holmes, and Brown with Cole?)

by goodtymes31 on Aug 14, 2011 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

good stuff

now lets get Cole and Brown and ill be happy, add in Bell and ill be damn near tickled pink

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 14, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

great!

wonder if this has any implications on Bell. Too bad we never find these things out!

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over; and optimistic

Cole for 8.5 mil; amd Bell for 4.25. Pocket change !?


"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente

by michaelbro8 on Aug 15, 2011 12:04 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm thinking Bell for like... 6 mill?

And I support it. He would be hands down the top power prospect in our system from the get go. He would be a top 5 pick next year, too. I say do it, take the chance.

by Zach Buccos on Aug 15, 2011 12:40 AM EDT reply actions  

hmm

its not my money, and it depends on who else it costs, but i stick by my $5M or bust. And I’d really like for them to play hardball with the $4.5M ish range that I expected on draft day.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

just get cole; steve pearce

get him signed. ill be ecstatic if we get bell as well.

i flipped out when pearce hit in the ninth. with doumit on the bench too. but pearce is just bad. i am always reluctant to completely give up on him, for some reason, but god he was the last guy i wanted to see. send him on down to AAA when tabs come back, instead of harrison, which i think they may do.

by bbautista24 on Aug 15, 2011 2:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Went to Altoona last night..

Tim Alderson is garbage. Don’t look for anything from him in the future. He can’t throw over 90 anymore and his command is awful. He plunked 2 batters and threw at another in the 3rd and was tossed after giving up 2 runs on 5 hits in 2 innings.

Marte continues to impress me.. The kid covers ground in CF. I am shocked he isn’t at AAA yet.

Lambo hit a 3 run Homer of Austin Hyatt, but really watched alot of strikes.

Curry did nothing..

Sanchez struggled at the plate, he has to learn discipline, but he has a cannon of a arm.

by Epsy on Aug 15, 2011 8:39 AM EDT reply actions  

i wonder if you are misrepresenting this

And Alderson might well be garbage, but this is why ranting against the team habitually makes people less inclined to believe you.

his command is awful. He plunked 2 batters and threw at another in the 3rd

One of the batters he plunked was the pitcher who plunked him when he was at bat. I am not sure who the other guy was, but the second plunked batter and the 3rd one he threw at were the same, were they not? Wonder if there was something going on there that you didnt notice, hmm?

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Where's the McKenry vitriol?

If it had been Doumit behind the plate in the 8th inning when Hanny uncorked the strike 3 wild pitch, all we would be hearing this morning is about how Doumit’s defensive ineptitude cost the Pirates the game, and he should never catch another game for the Pirates again and should immediately be waived.

by DG Lewis on Aug 15, 2011 9:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Well if Doumit wasn't so terrible on defense...

McKenry wouldn’t have had to play, so it’s still Doumit’s fault!!!

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 15, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

mcKenry has shown that he is pretty good defensively

and this is being written off as one bad play bad play, albeit extremely poorly timed. if it were Doumit, it would be another in a lenghty line of suspect defense plays. mckenrys offense however deserves some vitriol. the guy simply can’t hit.

by theatrain on Aug 15, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

lol i wasnt drunk when i posed that i swear

defense = defensive
lenghty = lengthy
and there isn’t an echo in here

by theatrain on Aug 15, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you are looking for the McKenry vitrol

you could try the game thread.

But you are right. If it had been Doumit that did that, we’d be hearing about it for a long time as multiple posters explained how easily McKenry would have blocked that pitch. To me it seems a strange discission to have McKenry out there most of the time with the team in such desperate need of offense.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 15, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

This.

On Friday, I questioned why in the heck McKenry was starting two games out of three in this series; I figured he’d start today as well, to rest Doumit after a night game. It’s one thing to use McKenry to rest Doumit; heck, it wasn’t that bad a move to start him today (again, the while resting Doumit after a night game). But Hurdle seems to be using them in a full-on timeshare, as evidenced by starting McKenry on Friday. And that is a terrible idea.

Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker

Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.

I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever

by wg1of5 on Aug 15, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the vitriol

should be aimed at going 1-12 with RISP…

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 15, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s scrappy! Can’t get mad at scrappy guys.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yesterdays Game in on picture:

So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.

by IAPiratesFan on Aug 15, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

The guy on the left is going to die…that’s why he’s wearing the red shirt.

by Thunder on Aug 15, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um, maybe.

Of course that’s the reason I was so opposed to the red jerseys a number of years ago.

But yeah, if you don’t get the joke, Chekov there is in the “agony booth”. He’s being tortured for attempting to murder the captain, in the “mirror universe” that is.

So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.

by IAPiratesFan on Aug 15, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Clint Hurdle eschew the bunt in this "mirror universe"?

If so, I may be interested in subscribing to your newsletter.

by maguro on Aug 15, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

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