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The irrational expectations for Pedro Alvarez

What does an unexpected flirtation with .500, combined with a farm-system that's almost completely void of power-hitting talent add up to?

Irrational expectations for Pedro Alvarez, the young slugger of the Pittsburgh Pirates, who is almost singularly responsible for me placing "almost" in-front of "completely" in the paragraph above.

Pedro Alvarez pretty much possesses the only power-bat in the Pirates' entire organization capable of putting-up Ryan Howard-like numbers. Sure, guys like Mccutchen, Walker and Tabata will probably improve their power numbers as they mature (Cutch already has with 16 dingers this season), but their bats don't pack the potential wallop that Pedro's does.

But, Alvarez is struggling.  In 534 at-bats, his career batting-average is .238, with 19 home runs, 79 RBI and a whopping 184 strike-outs.

You might think that it's normal for a young power-hitter to struggle early-on in his career, and you'd be right. Power-hitters are supposed to have holes in their swings, they're supposed to strike-out a lot (especially as youngins'), and they're generally an "all-or-nothing" proposition when they step in the batters box. Howard struggled early in his career. Heck, Ryan Howard holds the NL record for most strikeouts in a single-season by a lefty, and he accomplished it twice!

Even as they mature into Hall-of-Fame players, power sluggers have a tendency to whiff a great deal. Reggie Jackson is the all-time leader in strike-outs; I'd say he had a pretty decent career.

Alvarez struggling should come as no surprise. He barely has a year's experience in the big leagues. However, in today's day-and-age of 24/7 sports coverage, it's almost impossible for a young player with the pedigree of a Pedro Alvarez to struggle without facing boat-loads of scrutiny and ridicule.

On his blog the other day, John Steigerwald compared Alvarez at his age to players like Clemente, Stargell and Bonds, and how they were light-years ahead of where Alvarez is at the same age.

Of course, those players had much more experience at 24 than Alvarez does now.

On Smizik's blog, the Pirates' faithful mercilessly refer to Alvarez as "Kdro," a bit mean-spirited, but a perfect example of the high-expectations of an impatient fan base.

Alvarez is in a tough-spot being the lone mega-bat in the Pirates' organization. The front office made a huge-splash in '08 when they drafted him 2nd-overall out of Vanderbilt. It was a sign that the Pirates were going for the best player available and not the easiest to sign as they had done in the past.

Alvarez was labeled the "savior" of the struggling organization, and that would weigh heavily on any young player.

Last year, it looked like the Pirates had the real deal as Alvarez hit 16 home runs and looked really great down the stretch.

Unfortunately, as often is the case, Alvarez has struggled in his 2nd season and is completely lost at the plate.

Now people are starting to call Alvarez a bust, and I think that's way premature. I think it's pretty easy to forget how inexperienced Alvarez is. 534 at-bats is less than what most full-time players get in one-season, let alone two.

I don't know if Pedro Alvarez will ever have a bust in Cooperstown like Clemente and Stargell, but my gut tells me he won't be on any "all-time biggest busts" list any time soon.

Pedro Alvarez should still be in Indianapolis right now, but when your organization lacks a lot of muscle, sometimes you're called-upon to do some serious lifting even if you are still trying to find all of your strength.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

Comment 115 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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You gotta feel for the kid.

He’s sure in a tough spot. In hindsight could it be possible that “fast tracking” him through the minors was a mistake? I agree that he will be OK. Not being discouraged is a huge hurdle and is separate from ones talent. It’s a tricky skill that requires a lot of anyone. Hang in there, Pedro!

by almcbean on Aug 14, 2011 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes. I hated him being called up at the time, and I still think it was the wrong decision.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s sure in a tough spot. In hindsight could it be possible that "fast tracking" him through the minors was a mistake?

No sympathy from me. If he didn’t want to be fast-tracked to the majors whether he was ready or not, he shouldn’t have gone back on his initial contract agreement and then pushed for a ML deal that would accelerate his timetable.

This was an eminently predictable issue, and I have no doubt that it was brought to his attention at the time.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I completely agree with Vlad.

by bolton on Aug 15, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great point!

He helped create the expectations by his demands. Also, Howard was taken in the fifth round and not the second pick. You give examples of power hitters who have eventually developed. The reality is that the norm for power only guys is not Howard. There are plenty of guys who’s inability to make contact caused them to have dismal major league careers. I hope he turns out to be a Howard. I think he needs to focus on his approach at the plate. It is obvious he can hit as he has shown in the minors this year. He is not adjusting to what guys are doing to him in the majors. He seems to expect his ability to simply carry him. It is unlikely he will be able to simply succeed due to power numbers. He is going to have become more of a professional hitter who is willing to settle for a solid single when necessary.

by Pilgrim34 on Aug 16, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

There was no reason at all to bring him up when they did, other than that the team was lousy and they wanted to give the fans a reason to come to the games. He still had an option left for 2011 and the league typically grants a fourth option year to players who originally sign a ML deal as they have in fact done for Pedro.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 18, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure they were aware of his flaws, they probably just thought he would either adjust or be good enough in other areas to overcome them. Last year he was, this year not

by Mr. E on Aug 18, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice first post, Anthony

Obviously Pedro’s having a tough year, but some of the doomsayers are way premature. Lots of great players struggled in their first few seasons.

by Garrett122 on Aug 14, 2011 10:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I Hate To Say It.....

…..and I agree with just about everything that has been said by the original poster and others who have posted in this thread….. but the oft-used cliche applies:

It is what it is.

Pedro’s performance has been pretty bad, both offensively and defensively. Given his pedigree, the criticism will to continue to get worse until and unless he starts to perform. And let’s hope that “until” is the operative word, rather than “unless.”

I’m reminded of the reports that he was none too happy when informed that he was being optioned to AAA immediately after coming off the DL. Apparently, Pedro believed that he should have come back directly to the major league club. However, his performance since coming back seems to have vindicated the decision to option him to AAA….. and seems to be saying (as Hurdle and Huntington have been recently quoted) that he was brought back too soon. In fact, he’s looking bad enough that it was inevitable for the word “bust” to start showing up.

We can only hope that Alvarez finds himself sooner rather than later.

by magnumo on Aug 14, 2011 10:46 PM EDT reply actions  

"On his blog the other day, John Steigerwald compared Alvarez at his age to players like Clemente, Stargell and Bonds, and how they were light-years ahead of where Alvarez is at the same age. "

Clemente and Bonds were dynamite defensive players in the OF and, especially in Bonds’ case, could really run the bases and provide something positive there too. Stargell played a solid LF for many years, and had a great arm for the position.

Not only is Alvarez stinkin’ it up with the bat, he’s also a defensive liability, and this is something that was discussed repeatedly back in ’08.

Your post is interesting, but only looks at one part of the game for Pedro Alvarez. He’s hurting the Pirates in the bottom and the top half of innings.

パトリック

by patthatt on Aug 14, 2011 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

DOUMIT!

Can’t believe ppl thought he would help us. Offensively? Maybe. Defensively? -1000000!

We need to dump him this offseason. He’s useless in the field, and not worth a bench spot if we would just PH him. Good riddance.

by H2O on Aug 14, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not sudden love.

He’s consistently hit well in the minors since 2007.

Unfortunately for him, he’s really stunk up the joint since coming off the DL this year. I don’t know whether he tried to come back too soon, or what, but at this point he looks like he’s playing his way off the 2012 roster.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

kinda harsh

im not a pearce fan, but hes servicable if used correctly

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

what has he done to show that he is serviceable in the majors

yeah he was good in the minors. he hasnt done much in the majors and has been up and down since 07. and every time he shows a glimmer of hope, he gets hurt. i’m not the least bit convinced he’s going to turn out to be useful.

by theatrain on Aug 16, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny how

you defend Pearce when you’ve essentially been saying the same sorts of things about Jones.

"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."

by RichieHebner on Aug 17, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

ive never said Pearce was a starter, thats the first thing. his ability to play 3 positions makes him valuable.

Jones, however, doesnt do well as a backup/bench player. hes extremely streaky for that role.

sure, jones is hitting well in august, but he hasnt put together a good few months since 2009, which was an obvious outlier.

im not a jones hater at all. i want him to succeed, for the pirates. but this team should definately go another direction at 1B in 2012

by white angus on Aug 19, 2011 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see your point

But I do think he is a late bloomer, and Hurdle and Ritchie seem to have made some progress with him. I think a platoon with Pearce would work well for both of them, and for the team. The Pirates won division titles in the 70s with platoons at several positions. There are a hell of a lot of good left handed hitters in the past 40 years who couldn’t hit lefties, and platoons were very good solutions for everybody involved.

"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."

by RichieHebner on Aug 22, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

its easy to say that in hindsight

but i agree entirely with Vlad. He looked very good in limited opportunities last year and this year, both times getting injured. After coming back this year form the midseason injury, he’s looked terrible. At this point, he is playing his way off the roster, which is unfortunate.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Guys who are “nobodies” don’t win Minor League Player of the Year.

Other than Pearce, who was the last Pirates minor league hitter who had 75+ extra-base hits in one season? Go ahead, I’ll wait while you look…

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, Pearce won Pirates MiLP of the year

and so did Jim Negrych

(yeah, i know Minor League Baseball named him offensive player of the year, but its been a while since i dissed anyone with a Negrych comment)

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i know Minor League Baseball named him offensive player of the year

That is, to be clear, the one to which I was referring.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah we kno he was good in the minors

he hasn’t done much of anything in parts of 5 seasons in the majors

by theatrain on Aug 16, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being great in the minors is nice, maybe Steve Pearce can be a nice career minor leaguer.

Properly-contextualized minor league success is an extremely strong predictor of future major league success.

by Vlad on Aug 17, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, yeah

since 99% of all players that stunk in the minor leagues dont make it to the majors

by white angus on Aug 19, 2011 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is this sarcasm?

Doumit has an OPS of nearly .800 on the season and since he’s come back he has a .316/.409/.474 line. And he wasn’t the one that whiffed on that inning ending strike ou…er wild pitch* it was The Fort who has been hailed for his excellent defense but inexplicably tried to catch that pitch in the air instead of making a routine block and throwing out Morgan at 1st by 60 feet. That was a joke. Doumit has been outstanding and, especially considering the weak FA catcher market, I am hoping the Pirates will find a way to bring him back next year.

*In what world is that a wild pitch and not a passed ball? I understand hometown scoring advantages but still that was a horrible effort by McKenry. It really wasn’t even close. Morton didn’t deserve the ER for that one.

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 15, 2011 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's a struggling player right now, in all facets of the game from what I can see, that brings nothing positive to the team right now.

Nothing at the plate, nothing in the field, nothing on the bases. I made what I believe to be some relevant observations and you come back with “there are a lot of players hurting the Pirates these days.” Your FanPost is about Alvarez, not others.

There were concerns held by many leading up to the draft that have not dissipated about Alvarez’s ability to make enough contact to hit with any consistency in the majors. There was a division among baseball people too about his long-term prospects to stay at 3B. He has done nothing to make people think he will be able to stay there and even play adequately.

However, in today’s day-and-age of 24/7 sports coverage, it’s almost impossible for a young player with the pedigree of a Pedro Alvarez to struggle without facing boat-loads of scrutiny and ridicule.

Some part of the negativity surrounding Alvarez stems from what happened with him in ’08 from the draft til he got into the organization, and that he was initially fat and out of shape in winter ’09. This was a bad way for him to start his career, especially after getting a $6.3 million bonus.

People here still hold out plenty of hope that Alvarez will become a much better hitter and help the Pirates for years to come. Nobody has written him off yet. But he’s got to start making progress. (The Pirates haven’t done him any favors with the knee-jerk decision to recall him early last year, and the foolish decision to recall him again several weeks ago. He should’ve stayed in Indy-period.)

パトリック

by patthatt on Aug 15, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over the last couple weeks,

has he really had more than a handful of key ABs? Most of the time, he’s coming up with 6-run deficits. If he homers, doubles, or whatever, who really cares?

If the pitching can keep us in the games, I’d give him another 1.5 weeks to work things out. Then send him to AAA if they’re still playing (bench if not). He’ll get everything worked out in the offseason.

by H2O on Aug 14, 2011 11:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Howard struggled early in his career.

During Howard’s rookie season (including his 42 plate appearances as a September guy in 2004) he hit .288/.354/.567 with 24 HR. I wish Pedro would struggle a little more like Howard.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 14, 2011 11:57 PM EDT reply actions  

He also won rookie of the year in 2005.

And the Silver Slugger, MVP award and was an All-Star in 2006, his sophomore season. He hit .313/.425/.659 that year and led the Majors in homers (58).

Basically, I’m not seeing these early struggles for Howard at all.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 14, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

big swing

and the K-rate is i believe what the OP was aiming for when comparing to Howard.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 15, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but see, the difference between Pedro and Howard is that Howard was hitting when he wasn’t striking out. Quite well, in fact.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Howard is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to minor league K rates.

(There are a few guys with ghastly minor league K rates who were successful MLB hitters – Fred McGriff is another. But for every one of those who made it, there are probably a hundred who didn’t.)

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was going to look that up

because I had a feeling it wasn’t right. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Howard’s another guy who shows, like Pujols and Votto and Braun and Fielder, that if you’re going to be a star, you’re going to announce it pretty early and pretty loudly.

It’s getting pretty late for Pedro to do that.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Howard’s another guy who shows, like Pujols and Votto and Braun and Fielder, that if you’re going to be a star, you’re going to announce it pretty early and pretty loudly.

That’s not necessarily true either. Plenty of stars start out slow, and plenty had bigger samples of bad baseball than Alvarez, too. Howard is just not a good example at all.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clemente

took 5 years to really establish himself as even an average big league hitter. As a rule 5 pick, he had to come up before he was probably quite ready and he wasn’t a disaster as a hitter but he was a below average hitter (89 OPS+) for the first 2500 PAs of his hall of fame career. Some great hitters do start out fast but some struggle. Hell, even Mickey Mantle was demoted back to AAA as a young player.

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 15, 2011 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

The big problem for Pedro...

…is that he’s a polished college player who’s struggling in his initial exposure to the majors. It’s a lot easier to spend your first two or three years screwing around and then go on to have a productive ML career if you make the majors at 20 than if you do it at 23.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

And let's not forget

that when you sign Boras as your agent and you let him pull his shenanigans on signing day and jerk the Pirates around and you finally pull down $6 mil+ for your signature, you are pretty much responsible all by yourself for raising expectations to unreasonable levels, and we have a damn good right to expect a lot out of you.

I think fans (at least here) have been remarkably patient with him, actually.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:18 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

fwiw

i wouldnt mind Pedro being pulled down a notch or two on a personal level. Give him hell, then dump him in AAA till he shows he’s ready over an extended stretch.

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s hitting below the Mendoza line…I doubt he has much confidence as is.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

see, now i feel bad

but if he needs confidence, all he has to do is take a look at that bank account!

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure where this reputation of Pedro being a selfish asshat comes from with some fans. He’s shown no signs of that.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

nope

dont have that impression at all. He seems to be a fine guy overall, but man, i’d be pissed if i gave a dude 6M before he did anything and he sucked balls! (exaggeration, of course, but you get the sentiment)

by BurgherKing on Aug 15, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure where this reputation of Pedro being a selfish asshat comes from with some fans. He’s shown no signs of that.

He agreed to a contract and then tried to weasel out of it and have himself declared a free agent. That’s definitely asshat-style behavior.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

after he came out and defended Boras to something like “I dont regret how it went down at all and I wouldn’t change a thing” – paraphrasing but you can look it up

by Mr. E on Aug 15, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Until Pedro signs, Boras is just an advisor.

If you tell me it’d be awesome if I shot a guy and stole his car, and then I do it and get caught, which one of us is going to jail?

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This

When he was in the process of signing, I suspect he believed that none of the drama would be remembered becase he would rake his way through the minors and then do the same up here. He forgot what a lot of players forget when Scott Boras (and the other Borases) are blowing kisses in their ears and telling them how great they are. That is that Boras (and the other Borases) represent a lot of nifty pitchers in whose ears they blow kisses and tell them how great they are. And some of those pitchers (and apparently in Pedro’s case, lots of other pitchers who received fewer kisses from lesser mortals) can find more interesting ways of getting you out than you can of hitting them hard. And so lessons are being learned, hard lessons. Some of those learning the lessons become better by the learning, and others collapse under the weight of it all, and become footnotes to baseball history. Pedro has arrived at the fork of a very dusty road. I suggest that he heed the sage advice dispensed to many: when you reach a fork in the road, take it, before said fork is stuck into you and you are proclaimed done.

"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."

by RichieHebner on Aug 15, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Until Pedro signs, Boras is just an advisor.

that cant be true. if it were, Pedro could sign with anyone AFTER he agrees to a contract.

Boras, or whatever agent, is going to be part of that deal before its even signed. what agent would agree to that?

would a salesman let someone else get a commission after he did all the work? nuh uhhhhhhhhhh

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

conditional contracts?

i am your advisor till you sign, at which point I become your agent?

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

although technically

Pedro really could fire Boras and go with someone else— its a chance you have to take.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

im not buying that

you dont make a sale without a contract. boras negotiating the contract THEN signing pedro afterwards?

nuh uhhhh

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

something like that

maybe Boras signs a contract as his advisor, with a vesting option which vests if he signs with a ML team.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Josh Bell will also fall into these increased expectations

Pulling crap like he and Pedro did gets you more money, but also brings on higher expectations. Lets hope Bell will thrive under them.

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 22, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t want Ryan Howard type numbers. At all. I would far prefer someone who could play defense and get on base any day. Everyone else can have Ryan Howard, I will take Kevin Youkilis all day long.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Seriously?

I’ll give you seven Kevin Youkilises (Youkili?) if I can have just one guy with Ryan Howard numbers.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I will take the guy who averages about 4.3 wins a season over his six full seasons over the guy who averages about 3.3 wins a season over his six full seasons (this year included for both).

He’s a more valuable and more consistent player at a fraction of the cost. His peaks are just as high, but he’s far more consistent, and his valleys are much higher. Plus you can retain him for less money because he doesn’t put up the sexy numbers like Howard does.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention those “full” seasons for Youkilis almost always involved fewer games played than Howard. He has been worth 28.2 wins in 898 games. Howard has been worth 22.9 wins in 993 games.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Didn’t quite realize how good Youkilis is until I looked at his numbers. I did note, however, that he’s 32 and his numbers while still good have slipped somewhat from last year. Of course the same could be said about Howard at age 31.

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Youk put up 4 WAR last year, and 3.7 so far this year. That’s far less of a drop off than the 1.3 and 1.5 of Howard. Also, I would imagine Youk’s eye would hold up better with age than Howard’s power. But that wasn’t really the point. The point is, I will take someone who can get on base and play defense over someone with power who can’t get on base as well and plays awful defense.

I’m not saying Pedro couldn’t put up Ryan Howard numbers, that is unfortunately his skill set. I’m just saying Ryan Howard numbers aren’t actually as valuable as they look at first glance.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Granted.

I think we had some miscommunication there for awhile, but I see what you mean. Let’s just say that in the ABSENCE of eight Youkili (seven, I guess, if we still have Cutch), couldn’t we at least have a Howard?

by bucdaddy on Aug 15, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

"couldn’t we at least have a Howard?"

IIRC, the scuttlebutt is that we could’ve had the real one when DL was around.

パトリック

by patthatt on Aug 15, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. For Benson, I believe. Benson had, at that point, clearly demonstrated that he was never going to recover from Tommy John surgery. Littlefield’s rationale was that we already had Brad Eldred. Which, to be entirely fair to him, wasn’t a bad comparison at the time. Both were big, bad defense first basemen with huge swings that mashed minor league pitching but struck out a lot. And Eldred had, in fact, hit minor league pitching better than Howard had to that point. Howard just happened to be the one to pan out.

That said, he still should have taken the deal, because he wasn’t going to get a better offer for Benson. He ended up bundling him with Jeff Keppinger and getting back Jose Bautista (who he had and lost in the Rule 5) and Ty Wigginton.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The team of seven Youks would probably win more games. (Assuming that the value was adjusted to position…Youk may be a good corner infielder, but I wouldn’t exactly want him playing SS.)

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

But man would his bat be good there. And at catcher.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dude he’d be the best bat at SS since Honus Wagner, haha.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

No matter how poorly-suited Youk is for SS, I’m guessing that he’d still do better there than Howard would.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just once in my life, I want to see Ryan Howard try to play SS. We need to make this happen at the next All-Star game. Write in Ryan Howard at SS.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I read one time that Adam Dunn was a shortstop for at least part of his high school career.

That must have been quite a sight.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunn was much, much smaller than he is now, so i believe it.

everyone harps on Pedro’s weight problems but Dunn is way bigger now that he was just 2 years ago

by white angus on Aug 15, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Dunn the prospect was actually a guy who was small and quick but had a frame to add bulk (and add bulk he did.) Check out his minor league numbers…he had 4 years in the minors and had two 20 steal seasons. And in fact, his sophomore year in Cinci he was a steal short of a 25/20 season.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i believe Dunn was a big time football prospect as well

and not on the offensive/defensive line either. he was a true athlete, not just a big lumox

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

He was a true athlete back then...

…but he was never exactly small. He was drafted by the Reds in ‘98, and per this article, he was already listed at 6’6", 235 in spring of 2000.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

but if those numbers are accurate, hes downright slim

at his height, hes easily approaching 3 bills right now.

6-6, 235 is almost superhero-ish

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder . . .

in this age of internet group-thought and “kickstarters” and viral campaigns, if something like this might actually be possible.

Not necessarily Howard at SS, but I mean, if you could get the biggest MLB sites (fangraphs, SBNation blogs, YahooSports, etc.) all supporting a write-in campaign for some goofy, out-of-position write-in, I bet it could happen. Baseball fans don’t seem to take the ASG very seriously.

by Garrett122 on Aug 15, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

People tried once in the NHL. There was huge “Vote for Rory” campaign across the internet to try to vote in crappy defender Rory Fitzpatrick. The autovoters were going crazy because the NHL wasn’t using a very good captcha system, and he jumped into second place just before the votes were announced. All the sudden, he suddenly stopped getting as many votes, as the NHL secretly took away a few hundred thousand votes because they didn’t want him to make the team.

It was a fun time. People trying to vote him in, the talking heads talking about how it was a mockery and the NHL should intervene. It turns out they probably did intervene in secret. It was too bad.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

cool, thanks for the story

I don’t follow the NHL at all so I didn’t realize there was a precedent.

by Garrett122 on Aug 16, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would far prefer someone who could play defense and get on base any day.

Uhh…Howard has a career .369 OBP. He’s not exactly bad at getting on base.

Your point about defense is apt (though Howard isn’t a butcher with the glove, merely slightly worse than the average 1B), as is your point about value relative to cost, but from a pure hitting standpoint I’d take Howard over Youkilis. (Also, it’s not like Youk has no power in his bat either.)

The comparison is being made to Pedro Alvarez here. If he turns into either one of those guys I’ll be beyond thrilled, and if he turns into one of them, it’s more likely to be Howard than Youkilis, because he’s never going to play the defense Youk does.

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Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know he’s fairly good at getting on base. The point was just that I hate Ryan Howard’s skill set, not necessarily Howard himself. I hate that kind of player and I would always take someone who plays defense and gets on base over a a home run hitting K machine.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose, but if we’re talking Alvarez’s ceiling, it’s a home run hitting K machine, not a walk machine that plays defense and has pop.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right. My comment had very little to do with Alvarez. I just hate when people bring up things like “Pedro Alvarez pretty much possesses the only power-bat in the Pirates’ entire organization capable of putting-up Ryan Howard-like numbers.” because it makes it seem like the team could not survive without a Ryan Howard type player. I don’t believe that at all and it bothers me to no end to see people constantly overrating power. And by power I mostly mean hitting home runs, because people always incorrectly consider that by itself to be power.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 15, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you could argue that Youk’s own team falls for that same fallacy. Why else would they still employ David Ortiz?

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s just so cuddly!

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree

But he definitely doesn’t fit the “gets on base and plays defense” role.

Ortiz is actually one of a very few full-time AL DHs. Most teams use the DH as more of a way to keep a bat in the lineup while they give the player some rest. Most of them play the field at least a few times a season.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

youre right

but Boston has that luxury. if the Yanks go after Fielder, he could be a fulltime DH, which Prince says he has no problem with.

can you imagine a clean-cut Prince??? mind bottling.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

heres something unusual about Howard:

he was viewed as someone who didnt take care of himself yet hit 40+ bombs yearly. now hes in the best shape of his life. and his HR rate has dropped significantly?

so what am i leading too?

i say let Pedro have carte blanche at Golden Corral

by white angus on Aug 15, 2011 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe Panda and Pedro can go together

Yinzers uber alles

by BostonBuc on Aug 15, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

bq.so what am i leading too?

Its age, when it comes to “old man skill” guys, not necessarily the weight.

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 15, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

What irrational expectations?

He is expected to hit for power and drive in runs. He was expected to be our cleanup hitter. Not irrational to expect that from a guy with his pedigree. He may still do those things and he may be a flop. We don’t know but it still is not irrational to think those things or expect him to produce a little better than he has

by Skipperron on Aug 15, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

He was also expected to, at the very least, play average baseball.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 15, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

YEs, eventually, but people were acting like he was their answer to their power problems as recently as a month ago.

and if I remember the contract drama correctly, Alvarez wanted to sign a deal, but Boras tried to hold things up.

by Anthony Defeo on Aug 16, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think MLB had a hand in that as well

because they hold up deal for guys that way above slot, just to make sure that other teams don’t have to pay even more than they normally would

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by WVPiratesfan on Aug 17, 2011 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the consensus is.....

….. that the expectations for Pedro Alvarez are not “irrational” at all. That word makes the subject of this thread provocative, but it is inaccurate.

It could be argued that CURRENT expectations are unreasonable or premature, but clearly, they are not irrational. A lot of logic and rational thought support the expectations expressed here and elsewhere for Pedro Alvarez. No one is more hopeful than I am that Pedro will find himself and become the kind of player that all Pirate fans hope he will become….. yes, the kind of player we EXPECT him to become.

by magnumo on Aug 17, 2011 2:23 PM EDT reply actions  

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