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Pirates Top 30 Prospects, Gerrit Cole And Josh Bell Edition

Here's a list of the Pirates' top 30 prospects, with recent draft signings included. There's a fair amount of speculation with some of the more recent signings from both the draft and Latin America, of course, and when we're talking about someone like Clay Holmes or Harold Ramirez, I don't think anyone has a particularly clear idea where on the list he should be. And then there's the problem of comparing someone like Holmes to an MLB-ready (or nearly MLB-ready) player like Matt Hague or Jordy Mercer. So your mileage may vary.

As usual, the grades go from A to C, where "A" means one of the top five or so prospects in baseball, and "C" could mean anything from a guy who's close to contributing but isn't highly rated or a guy from the low minors who might have upside but doesn't yet have much of a track record. Players who have enough playing time or service time to be disqualified from next year's Rookie of the Year award, like Brad Lincoln and Alex Presley, are not included.

Please keep in mind that this is a little more rushed than it usually is, so feel free to use this list more as a jumping-off point than as anything authoritative. I'm literally typing this while sitting in the parking lot of a McDonald's, since my apartment doesn't have internet yet, and my main reference tool in writing this has been my phone. I'll put up a "real" list in the fall. But it seemed like this would be a great time to get a new list out there.

As for what happened tonight, I'm still a bit dumfounded. The Pirates were spending in the $10 million range in the last three drafts, and that already made them among baseball's biggest spenders in the draft. And then they almost doubled that. There was a Baseball Prospectus article a couple years back about how the draft was essentially a sort of prisoner's dilemma – it might be rational for a team to go nuts one year, but only until it thought about what might happen the next year, when teams like the Yankees and Red Sox would take note of the fact that the Pirates or Royals just spent $20 million and start going even crazier themselves. Fans have been talking about how the Pirates should spend $20 million in the draft for years, but they've never actually done it, and I think that's part of the reason why. I think they wanted to be among the top teams in spending, but without breaking the system.

This year, it seems like the Pirates just didn't care – in a great way. Not only did they agree to terms with Gerrit Cole on a deal that apparently broke the record for the largest minor-league deal, but they also added Josh Bell for $5 million. And, okay, there had to be a possibility that they would do that, since they wouldn't have drafted Bell if there was no chance they could sign him. But they didn't stop there – they also signed at least Clay Holmes, Jake Burnette and Tyler Glasnow for over $500,000 apiece, and at least Alex Dickerson, Jason Creasy and Colten Brewer for over $250,000. (Kody Watts was supposed to be close to signing, but ultimately didn't.) We'll see what other teams did this year, but right now, this looks like a historically unique draft. If this draft were a player, it would be Jose Bautista.

You'll see in the list below that the only 2011 picks who make it are Cole, Bell, Dickerson and Holmes, but the other guys the Pirates picked add a lot, and Cole and Bell are now two of their top four prospects overall. This hadn't been a great season for the Pirates' minor leaguers, but the draft has added an amazing infusion of talent, both in terms of depth (which they already had a lot of) and star power (which they lacked).

Potential changes to draft rules must have played a part here. If the Pirates end up having to play by the same rules next year, they could be wandering down a dangerous path, where they could be pricing themselves out of the market for top talent. They don't want big-payroll teams to start taking the draft at seriously as they do. But if the rules are going to change, then this is great – the Pirates snuck this one under the wire. Well done, Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington, Bob Nutting and Greg Smith.

1. Jameson Taillon, P, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 1. Grade: A-. I complained a couple weeks ago about the struggles the Pirates' farm system was having, but getting their top prospect in Taillon through the season without a problem qualifies as a major positive. Other than an occasional tendency to leave the ball up, there's little to dislike about him at this point.

2. Gerrit Cole, P. Previous ranking: NA. Grade: A-. Reasonable people can disagree about whether Taillon or Cole should go first, and in fact I think most people would put Cole first, but I'll wait to see how Cole does against pro competition before putting him in the top spot. Cole had mechanical issues that needed to be resolved, which led to his less-than-stunning performance this year at UCLA. Those struggles weren't, in themselves, a great reason to draft someone like Danny Hultzen instead – ultimately, the draft is about what a player can eventually become, not what he currently is. This is more about Taillon being a great prospect. I wouldn't hesitate to put Cole first if Taillon weren't so good. It wouldn't surprise me if both started out at Bradenton next year, and it also wouldn't surprise me if Taillon's numbers were better.

3. Starling Marte, OF, Altoona. Previous ranking: 5. Grade: B+. Marte's 10 homers so far this year represent a nice step forward; he hadn't demonstrated much power before. He still needs to work on drawing walks, obviously, but his future is very bright, particularly given his plus defensive skills.

4. Josh Bell, OF. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: B+. Bell, who signed for $5 million right before the deadline, immediately becomes the Pirates' best power-hitting prospect. He should be at West Virginia next year.

5. Luis Heredia, P, GCL. Previous ranking: 3. Grade: B. Unlike with Stetson Allie below, I don't think Heredia's numbers this year are cause for concern. The kid played much of the year at 16, and it's to his credit that he didn't completely embarrass himself. At his age, it's all about projection and nothing more, and if the Pirates can get him through the year without his arm falling off, that's a win.

Star-divide

6. Stetson Allie, P, State College. Previous ranking: 4. Grade: B-. We knew when Allie was drafted that his development might be bumpy, so it would be silly to write him off after a rocky season at State College. At the same time, though, Allie got a multimillion-dollar bonus and is struggling in a short-season league.

7. Tony Sanchez, C, Altoona. Previous ranking: 2. Grade: B-. It's been an awful season for Sanchez, and right now, I just don't see any way around that. His plate discipline is fine, but other than that, I don't see much here that redeems the season he's having. He isn't hitting for average, and he isn't hitting for power. Plate discipline alone won't cut it for a starter in the majors, even if a guy is a plus defensive catcher. When a player has a season like this, you just can't call him a top prospect anymore, unless his previous performance was off the charts and there's a very clear explanation for the downturn.

8. Kyle McPherson, P, Altoona. Previous ranking: 9. Grade: B-. Either McPherson or Taillon will be the organization's pitcher of the year once all is said and done. The Pirates' front office pegged him as a prospect at the end of last season, adding him to the 40-man roster, and that's what he turned out to be, breezing through Bradenton and pitching well for Altoona also.

9. Robbie Grossman, OF, Bradenton. Previous ranking: 16. Grade: B-. I'm a bit skeptical of Grossman's breakout season, since I don't know how his high-walk, relatively high-strikeout approach will play against better pitching. But there's only so far skepticism should go; Grossman's numbers this year are amazing, and he deserves credit. His most likely career outcome is something like a solid fourth outfielder, but his upside is higher than that – if he can add a bit of power or a bit of contact ability, watch out.

10. Colton Cain, P, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 8. Grade: C+. Cain has been the best of the 2009 bonus pitchers so far. That's not necessarily saying much, but Cain has had a nice season. He's been hit pretty hard in a couple of recent outings, but I wouldn't worry about that too much - I wouldn't attribute that to anything more than the number of innings he's thrown so far.

11. Jeff Locke, P, Indianapolis. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 12. Other than a lousy May, Locke has had a strong year. He recently earned a promotion to Class AAA, then had a brilliant first start there. He's still a starting pitcher, and he's still healthy, although he still looks like a potential back-of-the-rotation guy.

12. Matt Curry, 1B, Altoona. Previous ranking: 18. Grade: C+. When a team drafts a guy from a big college program, this is what it hopes will happen in his first full season. It'll send him to Class A, and because the competition he faced in college prepared him so well, he'll go nuts. Then it'll send him to Class AA, and he'll continue to hit pretty well. Player development is easy! I vote that we should just draft players from TCU and Florida and Rice and Pepperdine from now on. That Curry survived his promotion to Class AA impresses me more than what he was doing at West Virginia.

13. Rudy Owens, P, Indianapolis. Previous ranking: 6. Grade: C+. Owens was falling quickly even before the recent news that he's been shut down with shoulder problems. He recently wrote that the results of an MRI came back well, but he's still almost certainly done for the year.

14. Jarek Cunningham, IF, Bradenton. Previous ranking: 11. Grade: C+. Cunningham hit for incredible power in April and May, but with a strikeout-to-walk ratio that was downright disturbing. Then he fell off a cliff in June, and has been out since mid-July with an injury. His power is very rare for a 21-year-old, but he has a lot of work to do controlling the strike zone.

15. Justin Wilson, P, Indianapolis. Previous ranking: 10. Grade: C+. There was a recent report that Wilson was hitting 99 MPH out of the bullpen, and a lefty reliever who can throw that hard has a chance to be valuable indeed. As a starter, though, who knows. Wilson has struck out 86 batters this year while walking 60, so he would need to take a pretty dramatic step forward next year to become a viable option in the major-league starting rotation.

16. Bryan Morris, P, Altoona. Previous ranking: 7. Grade: C+. Since the last ranking, Morris has been moved to the bullpen for the foreseeable future. With his stuff, he's capable of being successful there, and his 33 strikeouts in 38.2 innings as a reliever this year bodes well. Unfortunately, he's a lot less interesting as a 24-year-old Class AA reliever than as a potential starter.

17. Alex Dickerson, 1B, State College. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C+. Dickerson is off to a fine start at State College, and he was one of the top 15 or so hitters available in the 2011 draft. He'll be a first baseman going forward, so he needs to hit to make an impact at the major-league level.

18. Zack Von Rosenberg, P, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 14. Grade: C+. He's allowed a freakish number of homers, but he might be making some progress in that area (he's only allowed one in his last five starts), and his strikeout and walk numbers are solid. There might be hope for a breakout next year.

19. Nick Kingham, P, State College. Previous ranking: 20. Grade: C+. The 2010 fourth-rounder hasn't allowed more than one earned run in a start since July 2. He has decent velocity and he's developing good secondary stuff, so health permitting, he'll hopefully be able to carve up the lower levels.

20. Clay Holmes, P. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C. I had hoped, in a weird way, that I wouldn't have to include any of the Pirates' high school pitching draftees in this list, simply because we're mostly just speculating about them. And besides, the Pirates' farm system is way past the point where a random kid who gets a $400,000 bonus automatically goes into the top 30. But $1.2 million? The Pirates must really like him.

21. Matt Hague, 1B, Indianapolis. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C. Hague is old for a prospect and doesn't have classic first base power, but he's currently hitting .325, and has hit at least .293 in every season of his career. I'm not a huge believer, but if everything breaks right, he could have a career a little bit like Lyle Overbay's. That sounds like a slight, given the way Overbay played in Pittsburgh, but he was a pretty good player for a while there. Or how about … a right-handed J.T. Snow, minus the Gold Gloves? I think those comparisons are about as good as Hague is likely to get, but it would be pretty darn nifty if he reached them.

22. Jordy Mercer, IF, Indianapolis. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C. Mercer currently has 16 homers between Class AA and AAA this year. If he can improve his ability to hit for average even a little bit, he'll be a very viable major-leaguer, given his defensive value.

23. Zachary Fuesser, P, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 25. Grade: C. Of all the 2009 bonus pitchers, Fuesser probably isn't the best prospect, but he's been the best one statistically. He's pitched 39 innings this year out of the 'pen and has only allowed one home run in those, so that's where his future might ultimately be.

24. Mel Rojas, OF, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 21. Grade: C. To his credit, Rojas has improved after a terrible start, but he's still hitting for a low average, with a a meager OBP and not much power. With players like him and Allie, you'll often hear people say, 'Yeah, but he's raw.' That's true, and certainly there's hope for these guys to rapidly convert their tools to skills. But there's also the fact that neither of them are that young for their levels, and they're both a million miles from the majors. One would hope that their talent would be able to carry them against weak competition. Starling Marte was/is raw, too, but he hasn't had a year since he was 18 where he floundered like Rojas has.

25. Ramon Cabrera, C, Bradenton. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C. Okay, I get it – he belongs! Cabrera is currently batting .359 while walking more often than he's striking out. If you've seen the guy, you know that he basically looks like a fire hydrant, and for every small guy like Dustin Pedroia or Jose Altuve who makes it to the big leagues and has success, there are about two dozen who don't. Class A is full of tiny guys who are effective at that level but aren't going to make it in the majors. And yes, that's size-ism. Sorry. But I'll root for him.

26. Harold Ramirez, OF. Previous ranking: N/A. Grade: C. When it gets down to the Gulf Coast League and below, we're mostly just speculating. I got to watch a lot of the current GCL team a few months ago, and most of these guys are so far from what they eventually could be that all you can do is make educated guesses and shrug, especially if you don't get to see them play every day. That said, when someone gets a bonus that clears a million dollars, he probably should be on this list. Ramirez is absurdly young and has yet to play in the states, but he's supposed to be an athletic player with the potential to hit.

27. Zack Dodson, SP, West Virginia. Previous ranking: 19. Grade: C. Dodson has mostly pitched well, but he sat out a couple months in the middle of the season and missed some development time. He's back in the saddle now - he pitched six shutout innings in his last start.

28. Brandon Cumpton, P, Bradenton. Previous ranking: 25. Grade: C. Cumpton falls only because of all the talent that's been added to the system. It's been a good couple of months for him – he got promoted from West Virginia to Bradenton and didn't miss a beat. He's in a really good spot, given that it's his first full pro season.

29. Andrew Lambo, OF, Altoona. Previous ranking: 15. Grade: C. Lambo flamed out badly in Indianapolis and was demoted, but he's hit decently for the Curve. He's still young enough to be a prospect, so there's the possibility of more depressing Gorkys- or Alderson-esque appearances on these lists in the next year or so. Or maybe he'll head back to Class AAA next year and it'll finally take.

30. Elevys Gonzalez, 3B, Bradenton. Previous ranking: 26. Grade: C. Gonzalez wins the Mr. Irrelevant award ahead of Brooks Pounders, Brett Lorin, Yhonathan Barrios, and a few others. He's earned it with a strong season at a young age at Bradenton. He doesn't have any outstanding tools, but he's hit well all year (except for a rough patch in June), and his offensive game doesn't have any gaping holes.

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Comments

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My only thought is that if we’re going along the lines of Sickels’ grading system where ‘B+’ can be a pretty good everyday player, I would give Marte and Bell only ‘B’ grades. No knocks against them, but I’d like to see more power from Marte and some pro results from Bell before giving them high grades.

Overall, I think this ranking underscores how important this draft is in stocking the farm system after guys like Owens and Sanchez faltered this year.

by Kidspud on Aug 16, 2011 2:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Just

curious Kidspud? How much power are you looking for?

A .165 Iso for a 22 year-old coming off of surgery to remove his hamate bone (which usually saps power for a year; essentially he should just be getting back to normal) is actually pretty good, especially considering he profiles as a elite CF and not say a 1B.

On the other hand.. his walks…

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

My only concern with Marte is his walks. But there are plenty of very productive Major Leaguers that don’t walk often, and most of them were Latin American prospects since it’s a cultural style of baseball there. I think Marte’s power will be fine because of all the things you mentioned, and his plus-plus defense will only help his case. I see no reason he’s not a B+ prospect ATM.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 16, 2011 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

But there are plenty of very productive Major Leaguers that don’t walk often

but how many of them became superstars??? if marte is going to be a superstar, hes gonna have to see 4 balls once in a while.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tough, but not impossible

Since ’00 there have been 21 player seasons of 4 WAR or greater from batters with a walk rate from 3.8% to 5.2% (totally arbitrary end points there). The one thing that they all seem to have in common is defense at a premium position, which Marte has. Again, your definition for “superstar” is a vit vague, but I feel some 4+ WAR seasons would qualify him. FYI, bot Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez are on the list, as well as Ichiro 3 times

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 16, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carl Crawford

Is another guy who makes up for a low walk rate (5.4% career) with speed, defense, a high average and decent power…that sounds like a familiar profile

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah, 4 WAR does not a superstar make.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll take a Crawford, Ichiro, Sanchez without the injuries, Starlin Castro career from Marte all day

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

so would I...

just wouldn’t call him a superstar.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ichiro

isn’t a superstar? Those are some lofty expectations that you have, huh…

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ichiro has had 3 seasons of 6+ WAR and 6 seasons of 5+ WAR. Not counting this season yet, he has only had one season below 4.5 WAR. I feel like calling him a 4+ WAR player is underrating him.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

If your definition of “successful” is “Ichiro” for Marte, you’re probably going to be disappointed. (Though I would be thrilled if he turned out that way.)

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 17, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

agree copletely

the only one I can think of is Vlad. I think it’s fair to call him a superstar. I’m going off memory though, haven’t really looked at his stats in a long time.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

huh, can't remember but I thught Kriby...

drew around 6-7% BB rates. Not great but Marte is under 4% in AA. Damnit, now you’re gonna make me look stuff up!!!

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well looking it up

Vlad had 720 BBs in 7593 ABs (prior to 2011) while Kirby had 450 BBs in 7,244. I think that they include IBBs in those stats of which Vlad had 247 to only 85 for Kirby so I’d say that they are pretty similiar in that regard.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 16, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kirby

Had a career walk rate of 5.8% and posted a 7.2 WAR in 1988 when he had a 3.3% walk rate (which is insane when you think about it). Marte is at 3.4% this season, is at 4.6% for his MiLB career and was at 5.2% coming into this year. I don’t think anybody thinks that Marte doesn’t need to improve his BB rate but getting it from 4.6%-6% isn’t a massive jump and that could be enough for him to make it work. Others certainly have…

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks guys (Kentucky and WestCoast)

for looking that stuff up. Very interesting. Anyone have Vlad and Kirby’s MiLB walk rates?

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only one I can think of is Vlad. I think it’s fair to call him a superstar.

Aw, shucks!

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

well played sir

recd

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Prospects!

Good list Charlie.

It’s a really good thing when a guy like Ryan Hafner, who got $450,000 and has put up fairly decent numbers for State College as a 19 year-old, doesn’t even make the list.

The farm system has come along way.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 2:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. I know we don’t always see eye to eye on evaluations of prospects, but I’m totally with you there. The number of interesting guys in the system is really high. Maybe during the offseason I’ll do a top 50, just for the heck of it.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 3:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yep

A top 50 sounds good. Get some real sleepers in there. Free Davydas Neverauskas!

And it’s a good thing we don’t always see eye to eye.. It’d be boring.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, cheers to that.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 3:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Rojas

has let me down since our debate :(

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

On the bright side, Josh bell has met your expectations.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 3:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'll

take it!

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dovydas Neverauskas is my favorite player in the organization.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good list, especially on the spot. My only complaint is that I like McFEAR more than you do (guy has dominated every level of competition and is a K/BB monster) and I like Curry a little less (High K rate in the low minors, reminds me a bit too much of Pedro).

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 16, 2011 3:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. I’d be inclined to cut curry some slack on the strikeouts at aa, since he skipped a level. SSS and all, but his ratios have gotten better each month, which is more or less what I’d expect.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 3:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m willing to cut him huge slack at AA, but he also had high K-rates in West Virginia and State College. His results have been too good to ignore, but the Ks are a concern until he can continually cut down on them.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 16, 2011 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

20% and 15%? That is nowhere near Pedro levels. That’s not too bad at all, especially with that crazy high walk rate.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're using PA.

Using ABs (which is what people were using with Pedro) the numbers are 24% in State College and 24% in West Virginia.

It’s not an entirely fair comparison since Pedro was facing better competition (though on the other hand that means Curry should be striking out less than he has been), but Pedro’s numbers in his first two levels of High A and AA were 29% and 27%. The gap isn’t as wide as you think. He hasn’t been as bad as Pedro, but he’s also facing weaker pitchers.

www.stealingfirstbase.com
Twitter: @stealing1stbase

by Stealing First Base on Aug 16, 2011 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fangraphs uses plate appearances, I use plate appearances. And even when I switched over to ABs I got 24% and 19%. And a 5-8% difference is certainly significant.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

AB is more useful than PA when you’re trying to identify guys with problems with contact, IMO.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

so excited to follow these guys

i have to say that i feel 10times better about this list than i did of previous lists with sanchez and owens higher up. I feel like everyone in the top 5 will be superstars, i know thats unlikely, but it just feels good.

2013 can’t get here soon enough!

by bbautista24 on Aug 16, 2011 3:36 AM EDT reply actions  

jeebbus

i pass out, miss singing day deadline and ht ebucs roll over stl… maybe i should just change meh sleep habits to miss every game…since the dame damn thing happend in san fran

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 16, 2011 3:39 AM EDT reply actions  

New favorite prospect

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Twitter: @shanecglass

by glass0941 on Aug 16, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s kind of strange to have Lambo on the list and Gorkys off it.

But it’s not my list.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 8:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

im thinking Charlie just forgot about him or something

even then, he would probably be late 20s. its not much, but hes had a good year.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure Charlie forgot him since he mentioned Gorkys by name in Lambo’s description. He might like Lambo’s potential more…provided he turns it around.

"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto

by blackjackfishtaco on Aug 16, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just the other day

I was thinking, “Gorkys must have really fallen off, I haven’t heard anything about him in ages.” Guess not.

by JRoth95 on Aug 16, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent Job Charlie...

While yesterday was obviously a big day, the more I think about this past season, the more I think our system was over-hyped or guys dramatically underperformed. So many guys did not advance as expected. Granted many are still 19-20 years old, but when Top 10 guys like Sanchez, Allie, Owens, Wilson and ZVR (just to name some) have seasons like they did, it’s very disappointing.

We can count the guys who out-performed from WV up, pretty much on one hand.

I like to group the list together in groups of 5 and generally wouldn’t argue with anything you wrote, but….and let the shouting begin….I think I might move Allie and Sanchez out of my Top 10 altogether. Yes, I know. Nobody needs to tell me Allie’s age and that he only pitched one year in HS. I get it. But it’s hard to see any progress this year and while he may still be able to throw hard, Pittsburgh looks at least 3-4 years away. As for Sanchez, I’m not even 70% sure that Eric Fryer won’t become the better player.


The Hammer Speaks

Extra Innings

Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Aug 16, 2011 7:20 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm with you on Allie

Like Charlie said, it’s good Heredia hasn’t completely embarrassed himself in GCL. But Allie is fairly close to be embarrassing himself.

Also, Sanchez has a better pedigree as a baseball player and has had fairly good stats in the minors until this season against far better competition, but fell behind Allie. In my mind, Sanchez deserves to stay ahead.

To be fair, I’ve had zero confidence in Allie since the draft (too much work and too much money for a guy who may or may not end up as a setup reliever). Obviously, I hope I’m wrong …

by From France on Aug 16, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

allie could always move to 3B... but you had to take a chance on that arm, ya know???

and Sanchez may bounce back fine next season. lots of guys have struggled in Altoona and bounced back.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Still thinking about Sanchez' injury.

Tough to come back from a head injury. Sometimes impossible (see Alley, Gene). I’m hoping that he didn’t try to come back too soon; he has all the tools.

My heros have always been Steelers...

by wozzle on Aug 16, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sanchez confuses me

His contact rate is still fine the ball just doesn’t go anywhere off his bat. For right now, I’m willing to chalk up the lack of pop to coming back from an injury that would have cost him a ton of weight and a ton of muscle mass. The jump to AA is hard on a hitter to begin with and most guys make that jump after spending several seasons getting bigger and stronger. Sanchez tried making the jump after spending the offseason fighting just to get back to his original game shape. I’m frustrated by his season but I’ve got no problem chalking this up as a down year and seeing if he can bounce back before I drop him out of Pirates top 10. Right now, I think he’s 6th right now…

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

ive seen Sanchez a few times this season.

hes not lacking in size of muscle mass. hes very solidly built. similar to tabata, sort of.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I've heard people say that about his appearance this season

However at least in my experience (granted I am by no means a pro athlete) when coming back from an injury, you regain the mass before you actually regain all of the strength. I’ve had to rehab a couple of injuries over the years and in those instances, I had my build back before I actually had the strength back.

Still an upsetting year and it’s a concern for next year, but I’d call it more of a yellow flag than a red flag…

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, a yellow flag

remember that d’Arnaud was ill last season in altoona and underwhelmed both with the bat and the mitt.

it happens.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

my thoughts were he probably was on a liquid diet with his jaw wired shut for a while so loss of mass and just conditioning. Although i guess he’s gotten his weight back according to Angus. But I’d give Sanchez slack for this year…probably a combination of the jump and just being away for a full year about from the game.

by lfhlaw on Aug 16, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

sanchez is definately not undernourished

sanchez and marte, which is kind of a shock, are two of the biggest guys on the altoona team. you all have seen Fryer, and sanchez is definately the stockier of the two. marte, in person, looks way bigger than mccutchen.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

just looking at profile picture of Marte on Pirates Prospects is all you need to see. Is forearms are F’ing huge!

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 16, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

which is why people dont understand his lack of power... (i know its been okay this year, but when you see his size its still weird)

his swing isnt pretty, and lots of his doubles are because of his speed, but thats not a bad thing at all.

in BP, Mercer and Latimore had the most thump on altoona. curry had the most lift. quickest bat had to be holt (hes psycho on the field).

in BP, marte hit lots of line drives. in games, he hit alot like Tabata, which once again isnt a bad thing, but still a surprise coming from someone of his size.

in BP, sanchez seemed to always be working on his opposite field hitting when i was there.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

he broke his hamate...

don’t care how big you are that will sap your power.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

but...

Marte has gotten bigger over the last 2 seasons. he wasnt showing much power before, and its only marginally better now. and i believe its because of his swing.

but thats okay. not everyone is supposed to hit dingers. i love watching tabata play, for example. hes easily my favorite bucco. and his swing just doesnt seem geared for home run power.

the difference between tabata and marte, however, is OBP. if marte doesnt hit for an extreme high average, he just wont be on base as much as Tabs.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guess it depends on what you mean by marginal...

he had a .117 ISO and .432 Slg% last year and this year it’s .167 and .492. That’s a pretty solid improvement imo.

the difference between tabata and marte, however, is OBP. if marte doesnt hit for an extreme high average, he just wont be on base as much as Tabs.

Completely agree. Even if he were going to be a 25-30 HR guy a 3.4% BB rate will not cut it. The K’s are down quite a bit which is good by 3.4% is downright terrible.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many though?

Doesn’t really matter anyway unless you’re expecting him to lose speed in which case his defense would suffer and his ceiling would lower anyway. Besides he’s jumped up to 10 HR’s this year and I think he only had one last year so his power is improving.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

no doubt its improving.

im just not seeing this superstar in the making that everyone else sees.

but like i said before, im the same guy who said Clement would be a good player for us.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah very cool, again always nice to have someone see things up close rather than look at stats.

it appears he is starting to show a bit more power this year, and if he turns into a slightly more powerful tabata, 15hr type deal, i could live with that seeing how his defense is his strong point.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 16, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s strong to the finish ’cause he eats his spinach.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Too Good.

"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway

by SubLime on Aug 16, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Job Charlie

What a great list. It will be interesting to see where the Pirate system ranks this off season.
Can’t say enough about what a huge signing Bell is. Wonder if he will go AFL this Fall.

by NHpiratefan on Aug 16, 2011 8:03 AM EDT reply actions  

I know it's early...

but anybody care to hazard an educated guess as to the immediately impact, if any, this draft class will have on Bucs’ minor league system rankings as a whole compared to other teams? I’m guessing we will move up very slightly or stay static since we added 2 high ceiling talents (Cole & Bell) which, with no significant graduations, will barely offset the disappointing performances of the minor leaguers that generated the most recent rankings.

Thank you in advance and good day.

by UncleNate on Aug 16, 2011 8:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Maybe the edge of ......

Top 10. Much more likely around 15. As UncleNate said, lack of progress from so many guys in the system is going to keep the overall ranking mid-pack.


The Hammer Speaks

Extra Innings

Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks

by David Todd on Aug 16, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

in that case, the Royals should plummet from the top spot, right???

IMO, their top talent has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy underperformed what our guys have done.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well that and the number of prospects they graduated this year should totally drop them down.

 Hosmer, Moustakas, Duffy, Tim Collins, Aaron Crow, Johnny Giavotella… I know I’m probably missing one or two also.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also Salvador Perez and Louis Coleman. So that’s 8 of their top 30 right there that graduated. Not to mention the ones that have underperformed.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

but they wont plummet

cuz they have prospects that are “sexier” to the baseball world. guys like montgomery, lamb, odorizzi, etc… are, plain and simple, hotter than our sanchez, owens, morris, etc…

scouts will assume that guys like Myers will rebound and guys like McPherson are playing over their heads

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think they'll certainly drop

but i do agree that people buy into hype with prospects. I see that happening all the time with Boston, Philly prospects, e.g.

OTOH, I really dont care much where they end up on prospect lists. They aren’t being drafted so we can play one-upmanship on top100 lists, although some do, and thats become a nice auxiliary market overall, which is good, I guess. But I care about what they do in the big leagues. I foresee a guy like Presley (before injury) being able to stick in the bigs for 4 years at the level of play we saw (OK less gaudy numbers, but a very very acceptable starting OF) and thats what I care about, producing in the bigs, not in the minors.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

i completely agree

but most “fans” complain about the numbers our minor leaguers are NOT putting up and judging not only them but the entire farm system. which, IMO, is too easy of a complaint. most fans have never even seen the prospects play.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

and I guess I m guilty of it too— i like to see them putting up numbers, because i m mostly completely unable to project future performance in my mind, or when we are talking of tools turning into skills. Prospect lists, blah, dont care. I look at the ones by Sickels, BA and Law, and they are weighed in that order in my mind.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum I think.

I’m more like the eternal prospect optimist. When someone like Sanchez struggles I try to find every reason not to write him off. Or like Owens moved to Indy and didn’t impress I just thought “oh well, he’ll learn from his experience this year and adjust. Pitchers develope differently. ect.”.

I know how to temper my expectation too though. I didn’t see Curry’s number in A ball and say “he’s the next Pujols!” either. (Not a dig at you BTW Angus. I know you’re a big Curry fan. :-) )

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

when you are talking about lowever level prospects this is very true...

and an excellent point. When you are talking about AA on up the numbers start to match scouting.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think

They’d have any real reason to think the Royals’ “sexier” prospects would be more likely to rebound than Sanchez and Allie. If those two are seen as candidates to rebound then both could wind up at the very back end of the top 100 (I don’t personally think either will make it, though). Much of Myers value was that he was a catcher with a big bat. Now he’s a LF with a lousy bat. You can have a lot of value as a catcher if you are even an average hitter and right now, Myers is not even doing that. He is younger, but now that he has switched positions, his bat has to improve much more than Sanchez’ IMO.

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

but Myers was always looked at as being something other than catcher. since day one they said he would be moved.

myers bat was supposed to be way advanced and a move would be best for his progression. and his bat still may be elite one day.

but my point is that the top 10 or so Royals prospects were considered to be upper or near upper level talents. power arms, power bats; the stuff that the pirates didnt really have. thats what made them sexier.

look at matt moore of the Rays. hes an elite prospect. power arm AND left handed. an almost lock to be in the top 3 prospects in baseball.
if you cut back on his strikeouts, he becomes less sexy, which means you dont notice him as much. he could still be a great pitcher without all the K’s, but he would be kinda plain jane.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the concept

But what I was saying is that Sanchez (46th ranked prospect this year) and Allie (79th) were also in that “sexy” prospect category. I agree that the Altoona 4 will be cut less slack but a 20 yr old with a 100 mph arm and a plus slider or a catcher with plus defense and a .900 OPS coming into this year. I think both of those guys fit the “sexy prospect” category and could be given the same kind of wiggle room as disappointing Royals prospects like Myers (10th), Colon (51st) or Dwyer (83rd).

I know that Myers was considered a guy who would probably move, but I think he was as highly regarded as he was because he had stuck at catcher to that point. His bat has looked good, but I don’t think he was a top 10 prospect in baseball (although still a top 100 guy) with that bat if he is viewed as a cOF instead of a C.

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Up next

Thanks, Charlie, for going above and beyond in compiling this list so quickly and in less than ideal conditions. Having gone to school and worked in Columbus, I’m curious as to the details of your new job.

With the draft done, it seems the next big off field developments for the Bucs will regard whether to re-up NH and the radio decision (whether to jump from ClearChannel, which I think most expect to happen).

Now to try and catch up on sleep.

Good day.

by UncleNate on Aug 16, 2011 8:07 AM EDT reply actions  

I still think ZVR > Cain

Talked about it in another thread, but both need stuff improvements to be more than 5th starters, and ZVR is more projectable at this point. Also, his K:BB and K/9 is considerably better than Cain’s, while neither has a high GB%. I find it much more likely that he could learn to limit HR’s than that Cain could overtake him in K/BB.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Aug 16, 2011 8:11 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think you’re going to find many people agreeing with you, but I’m one. From seeing them both pitch, I’m convinced ZVR has the higher ceiling.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.

by WTM on Aug 16, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I also agree.

I haven’t actually seen either pitch but I’m just banking on ZVR’s projectability, K/BB and K/9. Plus ZVR may still have filling out to do (6’5’’ 205) where as Cain is pretty much where he’s going to be (6’3’’ 225). Not to say Cain can’t add more “craftiness” like lefties tend to do…

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clearly

ZVR has better potential because if he was hitting the mid 90’s a year from today I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. His K/BB ratio shows the polish/potential of his secondaries, while his hits against show his mediocre fastball.

If he jumps up to the mid 90’s range (which could happen, but is still admittedly unlikely) suddenly he’s a guy with #1/2 upside, probably closer to the #2.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

I second this, I still like ZVR a lot. I’m not worried about his ERA this year.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Aug 16, 2011 10:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yes. People are making far too much out of it, when it doesn’t matter much at that level.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

No offense but bull it doesn't matter...

when a high ERA is driven by a high hit rate, an extremely high HR rate, and an extremely low GB% it matters. And given that it is more than fair to question his prospect status. Especially so given that ZVR was touted as being extremely polished. He is by no means a lost cause and I too think he has more upside than Cain but I don’t think Cain is a top prospect right now either. I wouldn’t put either of them in the top 10 right now.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I kinda fall inbetween the 2 views on ZVR. It does matter, with the HR numbers anyway, but it’s still about projection. The K/9, BB/9, K/BB numbers are positives to take from this year. The big thing with him always was the potential to bulk up and and velocity. But even that won’t help if he can’t locate in the zone.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, but those can be a result of how he’s being told to pitch. At the lower levels they aren’t told to just go out and throw what they will to try to get outs. They would be preaching fastball command, so ZVR could be just throwing a steady diet of fastballs. If that is the case, a hitter could sit fastball and skew ZVR’s results. But if his fastball command improves, he improves, and did what the player development wanted him to.

Now, I’m not saying that’s the case, but it is a possibility. And there are many similar possibilities. Which is why the most helpful stats you could take are his peripherals, since those give some indication of his control, which is not affected by pitch selection that may or may not be his own. They generally aren’t handed the keys until AA or so, so I will not be too concerned with their overall results until that level.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I agree...

there could be a development plan preventing performance but I seem to remember Stark open things up for ZVR pretty early because he was getting hammered and he still struggled for a while. And even thought he has a development plan, so does everyone at that level and it’s primarily fastball command but ZVR and Stevenson were getting ripped to a level others weren’t so again at this stage of the game I think it’s fair to question ZVR’s “prospect status”. Not his potential, but his prospect status. You point out many reasons to still be hopeful with projection being the biggest and I think we can revisit his prospect status once he starts to fill out and sees an uptick in velocity. But until then he is just a guy with potential who currently getting ripped in low A. That said, his last month or so has been very encouraging and despite his struggles he’s maintained a strong K rate and K/BB ratio so that coupled with some positive firsthand reports are solid reason to remain somewhat optimistic during a very disappointing season.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you believe the research, HR/FB, BABIP, and LOB% vary significantly from season to season and generally regress to similar numbers for everyone, while K%, BB%, and GB% are much more stable. ZVR’s BABIP is fairly high (.333), his HR/FB is very high (can’t find numbers, but obviously they are bad), and his LOB% is low (59.5%), while his K% and BB% are in the same ballpark as Taillon’s. Even with the high HR’s, his FIP is just 4.42.

That’s not to say that there isn’t a good reason that ZVR is letting up HR’s. Young pitchers are inconsistent, and his inconsistency seems to be manifesting itself as a high 88 MPH fastball. What I think the statistics tell us though, is that typically pitchers can figure out how to let up reasonable numbers of HR’s and pitch from the stretch, while it’s harder to learn to K more people, get more GB’s, and throw strikes.

I see the fact that he has a fairly high K% and great control with an 88 MPH fastball as an affirmation that he has pretty developed secondary pitches for a projectable 20 year old. If he does manage to add velocity and get into the low or mid 90’s, we’re talking about a #2 or #3 starter, flyballs or not.

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by BadMaafala on Aug 16, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you believe the research, HR/FB, BABIP, and LOB% vary significantly from season to season and generally regress to similar numbers for everyone…

That’s true for the majors, but not always correct in the minors, and it becomes progressively less accurate the lower the level of competititon goes.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I was getting at in the second paragraph, although I’m making a logical leap that learning how to normalize HR/FB, BABIP, and LOB% is common. It seems to me that if that were a very difficult thing to do, we’d see more evidence of repeatably poor numbers in the majors for those metrics than one season of Charlie Morton.

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by BadMaafala on Aug 16, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It seems to me that if that were a very difficult thing to do, we’d see more evidence of repeatably poor numbers in the majors for those metrics than one season of Charlie Morton.

The problem with that is that there’s a selection bias at work. The guys for whom those numbers don’t normalize over time in the minors never make the majors.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't have nearly

as good of a grasp of the literature in this area as you do, but based on my knowledge of statistics and a limited amount of baseball literature, I’m inclined to believe that if those peripherals were determined by a scarce skill, there would be a broader distribution of career BABIP’s, etc, than is evident in MLB. E.g., there would be pitchers with good K/BB’s but poor BABIP skills that were just good enough to hang in the majors.

Further evidence against the selection bias hypothesis is the ways top pitching prospects fail. I’ve seen a couple articles reviewing failed pitching prospects and causes, and nearly always the pitchers couldn’t strike people out at higher levels, they couldn’t throw strikes, or they got injured. Again, if having a normal HR/FB ratio was a scarce skill – if only some of the population of otherwise promising pitchers could do it – I would think there would be more evidence in the way prospects fail.

It makes sense that the numbers in the lower minors are more variable. In addition to more variability in opposition, park effects, and fielding, pitchers are working on things other than winning the game. Maybe they’re throwing pitches in different counts than they normally would or learning to pitch from the stretch, or maybe they’re more inclined to hang a breaking ball they’re working on. However, I think there’s a compelling case that the vast majority of the quality of a pitcher is defined in K%, BB%, and GB%, etc, and that normalizing the HR/FB, BABIP, and LOB% numbers is much simpler, if not trivial for most players.

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by BadMaafala on Aug 16, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure I understand exactly where you’re going with this, but guys in the low minors (and even in the amateur ranks) who don’t display MLB-caliber hit-prevention and HR-prevention skills tend to disappear from the sample as their peers advance through the ranks. They go off and become security guards or taxi drivers or financial analysts or whatever.

As you move down levels of competition, you DO start to see more extreme variation in things like BABIP and HR/FB. For the clearest possible illustration of this, look at the lowest level of the game: Little League. To try and apply DIPS at that level of competition would be patently absurd.

Further evidence against the selection bias hypothesis is the ways top pitching prospects fail. I’ve seen a couple articles reviewing failed pitching prospects and causes, and nearly always the pitchers couldn’t strike people out at higher levels, they couldn’t throw strikes, or they got injured.

Again: Guys who give up a .350 BABIP in the low minors don’t ever get to become “prospects”, and don’t get the chance to “fail” in the upper minors. They wash out and get released long before that point.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

If someone did the analysis, I think one would find that those who don’t display MLB-caliber hit-prevention and HR-prevention skills also don’t display good ground ball inducing skills or swing and miss skills. If those skill sets were not tightly correlated, we’d see more prospects with good GB% and K% numbers washing out in the low minors, which in fact we do not commonly see, and there would be a population of fringy MLB players with excellent GB% and K% numbers and chronically bad BABIP numbers (one skill set, but not the other).

Bringing this back to ZVR, he obviously has an acceptable K%, and while his GB% is below average, it’s not absurdly bad. Given that he’s displayed those skills, and considering the above, the simplest conclusion is that his BABIP, HR/FB, and LOB% will normalize and he’ll be fine.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Aug 16, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

If someone did the analysis, I think one would find that those who don’t display MLB-caliber hit-prevention…skills also don’t display good ground ball inducing skills….

There’s actually a negative correlation between a minor league pitcher’s GB rate and hit rate, since GBs become hits more often than FBs do. The place that GB pitchers catch up as far as run value is concerned is on extra-base hits – FBs are much, much more likely to become XBH than GBs are.

If those skill sets were not tightly correlated, we’d see more prospects with good GB% and K% numbers washing out in the low minors…

There are quite a few like that as-is. Look at all the finesse pitchers who put up killer K numbers in the low minors and then see those K rates drop once they reach AA/AAA.

For a real-world example, look at Paul Ah Yat, a prospect of ours from a while back with good command, good breaking stuff, and a marginal fastball. Paul Ah Yat in A-/A is excelling at missing bats (11+ K/9), keeping the ball down (HR/9 of 0.3 and 0.7), and working inside the zone (BB/9 < 2.0). As he moves up the chain and a higher percentage of the league’s hitters know how to lay off breaking stuff out of the zone and punish mediocre fastballs inside it, his Ks go down (because he’s not fooling anybody), his HRs go up (because he’s giving up more solid contact against his FB), his BBs go up (because hitters aren’t chasing his breaking stuff as much and he has to work around the margins with his FB or it’ll get crushed). Then, at AAA, he’s reached the limit of his ability to dance around the problem, he gets a big spike in his hit rate, and he gets released at the end of the year.

There are a whole lot more where he came from.

by Vlad on Aug 17, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct me if I'm wrong,

But I think you’re looking for something to argue about. Paul Ah Yat’s problems are that his peripherals as well as ERA eroded as he moved up. ZVR’s problem is that he has generally good peripherals but a bad ERA. I’m not saying that ZVR’s numbers aren’t going to erode as he moves up, I’m saying that his HR/FB, BABIP, and LOB% numbers are not very concerning.

You’ve done a good job poking holes in the margins of my argument, without putting together a cohesive one of your own. What are you saying?

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Aug 18, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

ZVR's

one and only problem isn’t his numbers. Ignore the numbers, except for the “tops out around 90.” His fastball is gonna need to spike in velocity for him to become a big-time prospect like what was hoped when he was drafted.

Look for a velo spike and not the numbers, because the velo spike will improve the numbers.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree

 i also agree with you from earlier that its unlikely to happen. but ya never know.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's

why you get alot of em. Kingham, Hafner, Dodson, Stevenson, Glasnow, Burnette.. etc.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

KUDO's to ownership

They did what I’d had liked to seen last year, go over budget and make a splash by signing all the top 10.

Excellent, only thing that could have been better was taking Bauer over Cole but beggars cant be choosers I guess

by jackiegleason on Aug 16, 2011 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t mind Cole. I remember when he was initially drafted I heard a lot of concerns about him, about power or strikes or something, but he’s coming from a good system at UCLA to a good pitching system with the Pirates. I grew up in LA and a lot of friends played baseball for those traveling and invitation teams, which would go to camps at the local schools and down in San Diego, etc. They always said the same thing: UCLA has the best program and they felt like they learned the most there from their coaches. Now with Cole to the Bucs, just polish up any of those blemishes and he’s going to be great for this organization.

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by AlexStitch on Aug 16, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

this

mentioning such things should result in permaban followed by those on this board that live close, hunting you down and beating you

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 16, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

it might be rational for a team to go nuts one year, but only until it thought about what might happen the next year, when teams like the Yankees and Red Sox would take note of the fact that the Pirates or Royals just spent $20 million and start going even crazier themselves.

The problem with this analysis is that it assumes that, absent a team like the Pirates or Royals spending $20M in the draft, teams like the Yankees or Red Sox wouldn’t.

Which is like saying that if Michael Lewis hadn’t written Moneyball, the Red Sox wouldn’t have hired Bill James.

There are rich front offices that can spend money wherever they want. There are smart front offices that know where they can get the most impact from spending money. The two are not mutually exclusive – a front office that isn’t rich has to be smart to succeed, but a rich front office can be smart, too. And there’s nothing saying that even if the Pirates, Royals, Rays, and all the other small-revenue teams hewed precisely to MLB’s slot recommendations, Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein wouldn’t wake up tomorrow morning and decide to throw $20-$30M into the draft.

So it makes sense for a team like the Pirates to throw as much money as they see fit into the draft, regardless of what “reaction” they think it might bring from the high-revenue teams – because it’s better to “break the system” yourself then to try to “protect” it and see the Yankees or Red Sox decide to throw $30M into the draft next year anyway.

by DG Lewis on Aug 16, 2011 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

I've always been skeptical of the argument that the problems

small-market teams face in the draft are analogous to the prisoner’s dilemma. The Yankees and Red Sox don’t respond to what the Pirates and Royals are doing. If they thought it was in their interest to spend more on the draft they would do it.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 16, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget, though

They’re in a different position – literally. The Sox and Yanks haven’t sniffed a top 15 pick in 15 years. They’re generally in the 25-30th overall pick range. Which means that, for better or worse, the draft is almost literally a rounding error in their budgets. They could’ve gotten a guy like Bell, but he’s a relative rarity, a top 10 talent who convinced almost everybody he wouldn’t sign. So in most years, the question isn’t whether the rich teams will spend $20M on the draft; it’s whether they can find enough talent to reach $5M. If they wanted to be aggressive with bonus babies, maybe they get up to $7M? Again, a rounding error.

And by choosing not to expend a lot of effort on bonus baby type players, they keep a system that works just fine for them in place, and can expend resources – including personnel – where their big bucks get more payoff.

Put it this way – in most years, the Yanks could double their draft spending without making an appreciable difference in the talent acquired – maybe one more guy who’s top 10 in the org, a couple more guys in the top 25. But to actually get value for that cash, you need to be really aggressive in scouting. That’s a lot of effort in the draft for a pretty modest return.

All that said, I think every FO in baseball is talking about the Pirates this morning, and a lot of team presidents are asking why we got Bell and they didn’t. And why we got Clay Holmes and they didn’t. And so now the pressure is on – internally – to be more aggressive about overslotting picks.

Guys with Porsches don’t worry about tweaking their engines for more performance; guys with Hondas need to. But if the 911 gets dusted by a Civic, then maybe the Porsche thinks again about upgrading his exhaust system.

by JRoth95 on Aug 16, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually the Red Sox already are big spenders in the draft, especially relative to draft position. If I remember correctly they were 3rd or 4th in spending for the 2010 draft (10 million+) and that’s without a big top 5 pick.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Totally

But still no real difference than what the Pirates did. They took chances on projectible prep arms. Spending is still spending unlike say Houston who really took chances on no one.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
RIP Corey Keller, James Taylor, M. Jay Darby, Derek Davis.

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 16, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

just to hypothesize
a lot of team presidents are asking why we got Bell and they didn’t

IMO, the reason for Bell’s shenanigans (which sounds more negative than I want it to be, but I couldnt think of a better word) was that he had a pre-draft deal with someone (Detroit, perhaps, who didn’t have a pick till about 80 or so). That team was willing to give him maybe 6M to sign, and for whtever reason didnt want to pick him earlier. The reason the letter was sent etc was that his camp was afraid that if the bluff was called, they’d lose a lot of leverage, and the letter was an additional i-m-hard-to-get ploy.

And why we got Clay Holmes and they didn’t

I’m not sure thats such a big talking point. I was surprised he got as much money as he did.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

also
if the bluff was called

To their credit, the Bucs called the bluff (if it indeed happened that way) and put up the money (or enough).

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Overspending

All good points (from JRoth). The only scenario under which I could see a high-revenue, high draft position team spending into the tens of millions of dollars on the draft would be to aggressively go after prep players with college commitments, and throw Bell-type money at them to get them to break their commitments. As you say, for a team with $435M in revenue to throw around, it may be a more worthwhile investment to spend it on the FA market and mid-season trades than to spend it on draft picks – but that decision is independent of whether or not the Pirates are throwing $20M into the draft.

by DG Lewis on Aug 16, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

“a lot of team presidents are asking why we got Bell and they didn’t.”

I think Bell was considered a top 15 prospect, and it’s possible that some teams wanted to avoid his top-7 asking price. That’s my guess, especially teams like the Jays and Rays that had an enormous amount of early round picks to sign.

by bolton on Aug 16, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good

points. If you look, the Red Sox have been pouring money into the draft the last few years. I think we should just spend, spend, spend, and make the big market teams choose to keep up. I don’t think alot will (except for Boston).

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the Nats and Blue Jays. It doesn’t just have to be the super top markets. If the Pirates can spend it, the middle teams can too.

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Missing

Not only Gorkys, but D’Arnaud.

Those two are better prospects than many on this list

by ballparkfranks on Aug 16, 2011 10:15 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

Both of these guys should be on the list, unless Charlie considers Chase to have lost his prospect status because of MLB service time.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Aug 16, 2011 10:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

service time would be my guess...

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I figured D’arnaud wasn’t eligible due to service time, although looking over it now, I’m not positive about that. Like I said, I wasn’t able to write it with the research tools I usually have. But that’s why he’s not on there. As for gorkys, I just feel like he’s a spare outfielder unless his hitting takes a big step forward, which I’m skeptical about.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think I just want to see more right now. His numbers are hard to evaluate because he’s played so sparingly this year, and because he’s been old for his leagues. His stint in the majors didn’t answer a lot of questions (not that the Pirates gave him much of a chance to).

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a bench OF with plus defensive value

would be a top 30 prospect in most systems. While it’s not on the level of a future impact player, a solid pinch runner/defensive replacement/capable injury fill-in is more production than we’ll get from the majority of the guys ranked 16-30. Gorkys floor is pretty high in that regard.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Aug 19, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

awesome list. few changes to mine.

1. Cole – more advanced as a college pitcher than Taillon. According to Truth has a ChangeUp that rates as an 80, which to me is alot better than having a breaking ball as your #2 pitch (ask Johan Santana about how effective a changeup can be).

2. Taillon
3. Marte
4. Bell
5. Heredia
6. Sanchez
7. Allie

gotta think those 7 can have the most impact, after that it becomes a wash between 8-15 IMO.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 16, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Ya

Cole’s changeup is filthy, but Taillon’s 70-80 curveball is much more consistent. I’d still rank Taillon higher right now, even though I love a change-up more.

Either way good problem to have.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh, they're are 1a and 1b in my book...

I can see arguments for either one. I think Charlie has nailed the grades that they are both A- prospects so whos on first really doesn’t matter to me.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Question:

Why would the Yankees or Red Sox ever be in position to spend $20 million on a draft when they usually pick 30th, 60th, 90th etc.? If they’re eevr bad enough where they can throw $8 million at their top pick, that’s a GOOD thing for the rest of baseball, isn’t it?

by bucdaddy on Aug 16, 2011 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Well

I think the issue isn’t the exact number, per say, but how much is spent after the 1st round. Ignore the 1st round.

The market inefficiency right now the Pirates are trying to exploit is overslot bonuses from the second round on, precisely because as you pointed out only teams at the top of the draft are really gonna spend really big on one pick. Basically, every team had a shot at a Dillon Maples for example (signed for 2.5 million by the Cubs). Certain teams have chose to actually go after those guys, while others have not.

For example…the Cubs actually spent nearly the same amount of money as the Pirates if you ignore the first round.

Pirates got
Bell – 5 mil
Holmes – 1.2 mil

Cubs got
Vogelbach – 1.6 mil
Dunston – 1.275 mil
Maples – 2.5 mil

The difference was the 8 mil we payed Cole compared to the 2.65 mil the Cubs payed Javier Baez at pick #9 compared to pick #1.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comp picks

also gives those teams a ton of shots for $1m – $3m price tag guys in the 30s n 40s

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to give the front office credit

with this entire draft, and putting down the cash necessary to get this done. I was impressed with the Josh Bell signing, I can’t imagine the difficult odds when a prospect goes to the trouble of sending letters to each MLB team telling them not to draft him. And let’s not forget Texas is one of the most prestigious programs in college baseball, with a long history of sending Longhorn players to the pros.

by SteelStealth on Aug 16, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

it was a great job by the FO

but, increasingly, the sending letters part looks shadier to me. Not that I bought it in the first place, but if a guy is committed to going to college, he just lets the contacting scouts know that and goes on a vacation and says, “No, thanks!” to everyone

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

My top 15

1. Jameson Taillon
2. Gerrit Cole
3. Starling Marte
4. Josh Bell
5. Luis Heredia
6. Stetson Allie
7. Robbie Grossman
8. Kyle McPherson
9. Justin Wilson
10. Colton Cain
11. Alex Dickerson
12. Jeff Locke
13. Nick Kingham
14. Tony Sanchez
15. Rudy Owens

by Cainyoudigit on Aug 16, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Honorable Mentions (in no particular order) – Ryan Hafner, ZVR, Zack Dodson, Mel Rojas Jr., Bryan Morris, Clay Holmes, Tyler Glasnow, Drew Maggi, Matt Curry, Tyler Waldron

by Cainyoudigit on Aug 16, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like

it.. although Tony Sanchez at 14… wow bro.

it.. although Tony Sanchez at 14… wow bro.That’s a gusty call, but I still think he’s gonna be a guy who can OPS .700+ in the major leagues with plus defense at C and that’s his floor. Let’s hope I’m right :P

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought about ranking Sanchez higher. I think that after my top 6 the next 10 to 15 players could all be ranked from 7 to 22 or so. I am by no means down on Sanchez’s ability to succeed I just think the others around him should currently be ranked higher.

Grossman – highly thought of when we drafted him and he is finally succeeding. I think he will only get better.
Mcpherson – is having a great season and has great control. Could be in AAA next year.
 Wilson – is throwing high nineties as a lefty from the pen and has lots of movement. Could still be a starter.
Colton Cain – Having a solid season. Lefty.
Dickerson – Was a top 50 draft prospect. Could be our 1b power bat.
Locke – I personally think he was tired of being in AA. Now that he is free he will continue to get better.
Kingham – I just really like his upside and feel he doesn’t get propped enough because of Taillon and Allie.

by Cainyoudigit on Aug 16, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

i just cant put grossman above Sanchez yet

what did Sanchez put up in A ball last season? see, hes succeeded in A ball too.

and im not sold on Justin Wilson throwing 99mph either. i call BS on that one.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still believe they are all around the same once you get past the first 6. You bring up good points and I still like Sanchez but need to see him take a step forward next year to be back in the top ten. If he wasn’t a 1st round pick many people would be forgetting about him.

Personally I think he will turn it around but it may take a while.

by Cainyoudigit on Aug 16, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

why do you call BS on his heater?

Several different sources reported those reading were from scouts guns. They stadium gun that is juiced had him at 101. Plus two days earlier he was clocled at 98. It’s not unheard of for a guy who throws 93-94 to juiced it up 2-4 mph in the pen. You’re right about Sanchez/Grossman though.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

on Sanchez/Grossman

the big difference is age.

However, the FO must have some concerns with Grossman, coz I have no idea what the hell he s still doing in Bradenton

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm

wondering if Grossman will be pushed to AAA next year.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

tht'd be a big

and unnecessary jump… they could easily have gotten him 2 months in AA, instead of the stupid Robbie For MVP campaign

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

I guess. Maybe half a year in both next year, with a plan to bring him up June 2013.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is quite young

and started, not slow, but not as hot as he is now. Next year he will be 22 in AA and possibly Indy by late season, no need to rush him.

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grossman is still striking out a lot for a guy who's power...

hasn’t fully developed. The walks are nice but he has a ton of K’s and I think that’s the main reason he wasn’t promoted. He’ll start of in AA next season, still age appropriate.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

My guess would be that they want him to keep getting defensive reps in CF, and Marte has that position locked down at Altoona.

by Vlad on Aug 16, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keep

em in the middle of the field as long as possible.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

youre right

chambers has been in CF more this season

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hm.

If he’s a corner guy now, you wouldn’t think they’d let Latimore stand in his way. I know there are people who like Latimore, but if it’s one guy or the other, Grossman is clearly the better prospect at this point.

by Vlad on Aug 17, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

is he getting CF reps in Bradenton?

I assumed Chambers was the Bradenton CF, but I’ll admit I havent noticed the position column in the boxscore

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

a few

But only when Chambers is rested. He’s the regular RF, as he was last year. He’s not a CF.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grossman's arm

It’s more than adequate, but yeah, he’s just not a CF. I’d hesitate to call him a plus in a corner, either.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice list.

I think your top 10 is near perfect with the exception of Cain. I really can’t see an argument for having him ranked higher than Locke. Cain has no projectability and his numbers have declined as he’s advanced. His K rate this year is now under 7/9. He’s a decent prospect but not top ten material imo. Locke stuff is as interesting as Cain’s if not better and is having a better season in AA. Oh and I am much higher on Kingham than you; I think he’s a top 15 guy. Very nice work and props for slotting McPherson in at #8, I like it.

#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!

by Slick1 on Aug 16, 2011 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

my top 10

1. Cole
2. Taillon
3. Locke
4. Marte
5. Bell
6. McPherson
7. Heredia
8. Grossman
9. ZVR
10. Sanchez (or Cain— struggled with this one)

As you can tell from #3, I value floor/proximity to the majors, and I feel (hope?) Locke can be a #3 type pitcher next year, leading him up the list.

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Solid list

I think Marte and Bell could be interchangeable, but a tough call since we just signed Bell and he hasn’t played.

I’m still concerned about Grossman. The walks are nice, the strikeouts are scary.

Would probably bump Cain and Locke above Grossman. I think Currey is too high and might bump him down to just in front of Hague.

by Brakeman8 on Aug 16, 2011 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I think we are starting to see tiers like Taillon/Cole, followed by Marte/Bell/Heredia/Allie and then a huge group of players that have shown some successes and could easily breakout.

This group includes the Altoona 4 (who have all had success), Mcpherson (Excellent year), Grossman, ZVR, Cain, Dodson, Kingham, Hafner, Curry, Hague, Gorkys, even Lambo.

It it this third tier that shows how much our system has come. We now have depth. Depth that could easily breakout.

by Cainyoudigit on Aug 16, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m literally typing this while sitting in the parking lot of a McDonald’s, since my apartment doesn’t have internet yet, and my main reference tool in writing this has been my phone.

you da man

by insane_sanity on Aug 16, 2011 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

HAHA

yes you are ANGUS! I freakin WIN!!!! I have that page bookmarked!

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Over

at Pirate Prospects..

Tim had Bell higher than Marte.. BUT

WTM, John Dreker, and Kevin Creagh all rated Marte higher. Overall, Marte higher than Bell.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

well i'll be damned...

but did you see Creagh’s reasoning behind it??? its ridiculous.

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

it’s not. I addressed this elsewhere… but

Bell and Marte have similar upside, with Bell’s being probably 1 or 2 points higher on a scale of 1-10. Let’s say Bell’s upside/ceiling is 9 and Marte’s is 7 or 8. Marte is successful at AA while Bell hasn’t had a Pro AB.

You argued Owens should be our top pitching prospect (from the fanshot about this list) compared to Taillon or Cole. Thing is Cole and Taillon have 10 upside/ceiling. Heredia probably has 9 or 10 as well and Allie is 9 or 10 (although very unlikely to reach it). Owens has.. maybe 6 for a ceiling, but probably a 4 or 5. Therefore, in the case of Owens vs. Taillon/Cole, the ceiling outweighs the difference in levels. Plus Taillon and Cole have a significantly better floor than Bell has at this moment.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

good work, Charlie, as usual

I like the list. I don’t agree with some of it, but overall it’s very nice.

Some guys I’d have in my top 30 that you didn’t mention:
Alen Hanson – Hopefully you got to see this guy when you caught the GCL Pirates. He’s dreamy, and given that you would include a guy like Harold Ramirez I’m curious why you didn’t include Hanson.
Joely Rodriguez – You’re more stats-oriented than I am, which I suppose at least partially explains his absence, since he’s barely pitched this year. But reports from ST were that he was sitting 93 with his FB and featured a plus CU and feel for a change. For a 19yo LHP, that’s awesome. I think some of the PP guys are in love with him too.
Gorkys Hernandez – Your list values floor quite a bit in the 20-30 range, and if you’re going with that type of criteria, I think you should consider Gorkys, whose floor is higher than that of guys like Hague, Lambo, and Mercer. Because of his D, I’d say his ceiling is higher than the former two as well.

Guys in your top 30 I disagree about:
Grossman – usual complaints
Cunningham and Bell – I’ll talk about Bell just to demonstrate why I think you’re too low on Cunningham. They have similar upside (.300, 30 HR); in Cunningham’s favor, he’s got a nonzero chance of sticking in the IF and is already demonstrating huge in-game power in pro ball. Of course, Cunningham’s got rather serious approach and pitch-recognition issues (as well as a concussion problem at the moment), but I still think the difference between he and Bell is a lot smaller than you have it here. I have Bell as a B and Cunningham as a B-, FWIW.
Clay Holmes – High-effort delivery, inconsistent breaking ball, and little remaining projection suggest a future reliever to me.
Mercer and Hague – I don’t value floor as highly as you do. (I also don’t think the floors on these guys are all that high anyway.)

Minor quibbles on some of the rest, but mostly we’re on the same wavelength. Good list.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 3:55 PM EDT reply actions  

How does Cunningham have .300 potential? He’s got Dan Uggla potential, maybe.

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya

I gotta agree with this. I’d love him to become Dan Uggla though. Solid player.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

especially with the glove...

“clank clank goes the trolleyyyyy”

by white angus on Aug 16, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not quite that bad.

We aren’t talking about Negrych here.

by Vlad on Aug 17, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

his swing is beautiful and he hits the ball hard

If his pitch recognition comes around he’ll be a beast. I don’t think he’s likely to hit .300 in the majors (hell, he’s not likely to even reach the majors, as with most prospects), but I definitely see the potential for a high average with Cunningham.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do

buy into this. He has a very flat, compact swing, which makes his power that much more salivating because he could be a respectable contact guy to go along with his power.

I think his upside could be .280-.290 30 HR’s.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

hey wishy washer you can’t agree with both of us

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can

and I will

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2011 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's

probably true for every player in the system outside of like Owens, Locke, and I’d dare say Taillon and Cole.

That’s why you get alot of those types of guys.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2011 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks. I didn’t see Hanson, or I least I don’t recall seeing him. The “dreamiest” player I saw on the GCL team, at least from a scouting perspective, was Gregory Polanco. Like I said, with lower-level guys, there’s some speculating, but I feel like I’ve gotten burned too badly on GCL stats in the past to think they mean much of anything. With guys at levels that low, the bonus amount is probably the best information we have, unless you’re one of the three people out there getting to see these guys regularly.

I did see Joely Rodriguez. When I saw him his stuff was not as good as some of the reports I’ve seen, but he had a ton of movement on his fastball. I’d just prefer to see him do something before I put him on there.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 16, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting

Would you mind describing what you saw from Rodriguez, and when it was you saw him?

Yeah, Polanco was my second-favorite position player from the GCL team. I also was pretty impressed with Willy Garcia. I’ve heard good things about Osuna, but I only saw him once and wasn’t too impressed.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wrote a little bit about Rodriguez here:

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/3/16/2054662/report-from-minor-league-camp

Basically, I saw a good fastball that moved all over the place. As for his secondary stuff, though, the guys charting pitches were literally sitting there debating what to call them. I definitely don’t recall seeing a plus curveball, and he never hit anything higher than 91 that I saw. This was a week before the scouting report you linked, though, and it’s possible he just hadn’t gotten to that point in camp. And I think his fastball can be an effective pitch at 91 MPH if he can command it.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 17, 2011 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

As for his secondary stuff, though, the guys charting pitches were literally sitting there debating what to call them.

Haha

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2011 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks

Yeah, 91 MPH from a 19yo LHP is still really awesome, especially if it has good movement. Hopefully the breaking stuff just hadn’t come around yet (very early in camp, as you note), or maybe he just wasn’t throwing his curve in the BP session you saw.

How did his body look? Had he filled out or is there still projection remaining? He’s listed at 6’1" 175, which suggests room for added velocity, but I’m wondering if that listing is accurate.

by epoc on Aug 17, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know they aren't our division

but is anyone else afraid of this potential 2013 lineup?
Span CF
Rendon 2B
Harper RF
Prince 1B
Zimm 3B
Werth LF
Espinosa SS
Ramos C

and Stras/Zimmerman/Purke heading up the rotation.

The NLCS could be really fun for a couple years :)

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions  

That's a really young lineup

The same group of guys could be scary in 2015…except for Jayson Werth, he’ll just be old and expensive…

by KentuckyPirate on Aug 16, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only Rendon and Harper would be young by then and they are like… the two top hitting prospects since… Wieters I guess and before that ? I dunno

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

if Rendon is at 2B

i foresee a slide into 2B, and bam… there go $7.2M!

by BurgherKing on Aug 16, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

2013? Rendon having fully recovered from his injury and only needed one year in the minors? Harper only needing one more year?

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 16, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Harper

is crushing the ball in AA. He will be up next year and might break camp with the Nats… although I’d disagree.

Ya that lineup is scary, but they have to get Span and Fielder, and Zimmerman has had a down year and has a major abdominal issue that makes you wonder (he’s had to change his throwing motion). Obviously this is a dream lineup for the Nats, and we do the same in Pittsburgh, so it is nice to see. I like (as in I think they are on the right track; I’m neutral as far as fandom) the Nats and the direction they are taking.

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 16, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I live here so get to a few games and gives me modest interest. I also do think they could be our biggest roadblock to a pennant. Span and Fielder were just names, but I feel they will be aggressive in filling those two holes with at least comparable players.

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s been mashing lately, though. Looks like he just needed a bit of adjustment time. Not surprising for a teenager who skipped A+.

by epoc on Aug 16, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

weren’t we talking about starting Rendon in AA? Where Harper already is. Maybe it is June 2013 but either way is totally possible. Just a fun scenario anyways.

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. Cole
2. Taillon
3. Heredia
4. Bell
5. Marte

then allie/sanchez
then 10 guys where order doesn’t matter

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

368 days ago our top 3 was Sanchez, Owens, Morris

by Mr. E on Aug 16, 2011 5:52 PM EDT reply actions  

As usual...

I tend to have concerns about rating players highly, sight unseen. Pedro, Sanchez and Allie are all perfect examples of overestimation by some. Don’t get me wrong, any or all of the 3 could still be highly productive, and maybe even stars. We’ve had people expecting high draft picks to race through our system and become stars in a short period of time. Or even prospective draftees (Rendon) that were expected to make the majors in a year or so. Fans hear that and immediately throw these guys to the top of the list. As we’ve seen, prospects aren’t perfect. And fans “counting” on them only leads to disappointment and frustration.

Pedro looks like he’s gonna take a while to get straightened out, if it happens at all. Sanchez has been a disappointment to the present. Yes, he had health issues last season with the broken jaw, but that excuse flew out the window this season. Allie has been all over the place.

As Mr. E points out above, last August 14th, our top 3 prospects (after the Alvarez graduation, and before draft signings) were Sanchez, Owens and Morris. Now they are 7, 13 and 16. And may be overrated there.

My point being, a lot can happen between a draft and the time a player makes the majors (if he makes it that far). While we have a better system than the Littlefield era, it is not a deep system, and it is not a system that has had much success at the ultimate level. I’ll hold off a few months of play for the new guys before I get too excited about them. It is heartening to see the front office willing to shell out the big bucks for the kids. Nutting is keeping his word about making the money available. Now it’s up to the front office and instructional people to show that they’ve selected the right players and develop them to their fullest. This is the part that I still question, as I haven’t seen the anticipated results from most, based on the press they have received.

by Thunder on Aug 16, 2011 6:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I would say the system at least has decent depth in terms of possible impact players

I think the chance for every player on this list, and even some prospects not on this list to potentially be impact players on the MLB level is at least to the point that you’d call them all “prospects” as opposed to “organizational guys”. If you expect a system to be much “deeper” than that I think you’d be dissapointed in most systems.

by Justin Mos on Aug 17, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just Wondering

I have to wonder out loud if some of this money might’ve been more well spent about a month ago on somebody that could’ve helped to keep this team in contention.
I just don’t know how long one can keep looking to the future with this franchise.
The future just never seems to arrive.
It seems endless.

by HonzaBednarik on Aug 17, 2011 3:10 AM EDT reply actions  

There weren't

major league players available that could have helped this team. Plus they did add over 5 million in payroll with Lee and Ludwick.

I know it sucks waiting, but the future hasn’t looked this bright since I’ve followed the Pirates closely (Summer of 2008).

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 17, 2011 4:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

hahahahahhahahahah

by Mr. E on Aug 17, 2011 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

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