Pirates Reportedly Agree To Obscenely Cheap Extension With Jose Tabata, In Talks With Neil Walker
by David Todd on Aug 19, 2011 6:56 PM EDT
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PrintOriginally tweeted by Tim Dierkes of MLBTR, the Pirates are discussing a mulityear deal with outfielder Jose Tabata. The outfielder has recently changed representation, leaving ACES and now being represented by Jeff Fannell.
According to Enrique Rojas of ESPNDeportes, the two sides are close on a six-year agreement.
Tabata is in his second year and won't be eligible for arbitration until after 2013, which means he won't be eligible to be a free agent until after 2016, one year after Andrew McCutchen. Neal Huntington has repeatedly said the team would only be interested in doing something like this if the team could buy out some of the player's free agency years.
This type of deal would set Tabata up for life and buy out his first year of free agency. Tabata would make about $1 million the next two years without a new deal and then have three years of arbitration. If those averaged $4-5 million over three years, I would guess a six year deal will come in somewhere between $25-30 million.
We'll see.
UPDATE: Tim Dierkes tweeted that he is hearing that Tabata's extension may include three club options. Depending on the prices, there could obviously be great value in that for the Pirates.
UPDATE 2: Dierkes is now tweeting that Fannell does not represent any players and he is not sure who currently represents Tabata. This doesn't enhance his credibility, but more than one source is reporting that a deal is close.
UPDATE 3 by Charlie: Wow. This is a very bold move given how little Tabata has actually accomplished so far, but maybe a wise one, in that the Pirates buy the right to keep a good young player in Pittsburgh through his age 31 season. The player options would be great, and they're straight out of the Tampa Bay Rays playbook, and because Tabata is young and hasn't had a big payday yet, I assume the base value of the contract wouldn't be prohibitively expensive, either. It's hard to comment further without knowing the terms the two sides are discussing, but I'm curious to see what they are.
Also, I tend to think the base value of the contract will be more like $20-25 million, rather than $25-30, as David guesses above. Tabata is still unproven and has a powerful incentive to sign a contract that give him a big payday, and the Pirates are still assuming a fair amount of risk by signing such an unproven player to a contract worth $20-25 million. Also, a less expensive contract would put the final base years of the deal at more like $6-$7 million apiece, which would mean the three options afterwards would be more likely to be priced reasonably.
UPDATE 4 by David Todd: Jen Langosch and Rob Biertempfel are reporting that the Pirates are also in discussions with Neil Walker as well as Jose Tabata.
She reports that the Tabata deal could be done by next Wednesday and it was the Pirates, despite their desire not to negotiate in season, who reached out to Tabata.
UPDATE 5 by Charlie: If the Pirates want to sign Walker, I can't believe something won't get done, due to Walker's deep roots in Pittsburgh. Again, it's hard to comment much without knowing the terms, but I would be comfortable taking Walker year to year - he's older than Tabata, and second basemen don't always age well. That doesn't mean an extension would be an awful idea, however.
UPDATE 6 by Charlie: Enrique Rojas reports the Pirates have signed Tabata. Here are the details:
$1 million signing bonus, increase to $500,000 salary in 2011
2012 - $750,000
2013 - $1 million
2014 - $3 million
2015 - $4 million
2016 - $4.5 million
There are three options on the deal that would bring the total to $37.25 million.
This is a great deal for the Pirates, obviously - it's at the low end of what I imagined, and I was thinking the sixth full year of the contract would be guaranteed, but it isn't (since the first year of the contract is actually 2011, not 2012). This deal gives the Pirates the chance to buy out three free agent years. It also sounds like Tabata's representation was upset with him for wanting to do this deal, which is why he won't be working with them anymore.
The source also revealed that the agreement led to the split between originals and their representatives Tabata, ACES, due to certain differences. A lawyer helped the player to [complete] the contract.
This is terrific. If these details are correct, this is just obscenely cheap. In fact, it's highway robbery by the Pirates. Sure, there's a chance that Tabata doesn't get any better, but if he does, this is so much less than he would get in arbitration. Even the options should be very reasonable prices.
UPDATE 7 by David: I think things are a little deceiving here. The Pirates are calling the deal a six-year deal, but it includes this season. Under that scenario the team didn't buy out any of the free agency years. They did get three option seasons however which probably run at around $6 million, $7.5 million and $9 million. That means a "six-year deal" if the Pirates were to exercise the option in 2017, Tabata's first year of free agency, would run about $21 million. That still seems like a very reasonable deal as I was suggesting it might run $25-30, but it's not a six-year deal in exactly the way we were imagining.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Tabata is Ready to Sign Perhaps...
As I mentioned in the first fanpost on this one…
While the Pirates might want to sign Cutch now, he may not be inclined to just yet…It may be that they will get something done in the off season but for a player his caliber it isn’t completely in his long term best interest to sign an extension.
If he stays on his current path he becomes more and more valuable far sooner…If I am his agent, I listen and stay in contact with the Pirates but I would not be in a rush to put something together unless it is too good to pass up…
According to NH...
earlier this summer, it takes two to tango and Cutch’s camp wasn’t interested at that time.
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I would gladly sign Tabata now while his value is low.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 19, 2011 2:09 PM EDT reply actions
Also
Now Theres a player we can all safely buy the jersey/shirts/memoribelia of, and know he is gunna be here for along long time
age of last winning season: 5
Nate McLouth says to temper that optimism
by Wizard of Woz on Aug 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
$25-30M is not much at all over 6 years. If he produces 2 WAR a year — which he did in 102 games last year — that is a bargain. At $5M a win (and no inflation!), his salaries would look like the following:
2012: $500K (pre-arb)
2013: $500K (pre-arb)
2014: $4M (arb 1, 40% of value)
2015: $6M (arb 2, 60% of value)
2016: $8M (arb 3, 80% of value)
2017: $10M (FA, 100% of value)
The total is $29M, and again, that doesn’t include inflation and assumes only 2 wins a season.
he should start to be worth more than two wins a season
if he can get that power stroke going
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
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Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 19, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
the power stroke he can figure out
the staying healthy one is the biggest if
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
CM PUNK IS MY HERO
Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 19, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
He should be worth more than two wins a season if he sustains his walk rate and his BABIP bounces back. He should be a .370+ OBP guy.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 19, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I like shayborg’s analysis but disagree with the conclusion. I think that $25-30 million is fair, not a bargain for the Pirates. There’s a quite real chance that Tabata gets hurt/ineffective and isn’t even worth the 2 wins per season.
There's always a real chance that a guy gets hurt
Bottom line is Tabata will be worth about 4 WAR through his first 200 games…as a 21-22 year old. That’s a good, solid start, and the Pirates are right to lock that up.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
Yeah. I think the deal might actually be cheaper than that; I don’t think the Pirates would be interested in this if they weren’t getting a cheap discount. Also, if the 2017 base salary is $10 million, I shudder to think of how much the options would cost.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 19, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with maguro: I'd much rather see the Pirates wait another year and have Tabata prove he deserves big money.
I hope I’m wrong, but I’ve been rather suspicious of Tabata’s commitment to his craft this year. I think he got too much of a free pass from criticism with the leg injury, and I still can’t understand why a guy would need to put on a board and taken by ambulance to UPMC for a strained quad, and why it took him forever and a day to get back from the injury.
Hey, I like the guy. I just think some have been too quick to pencil him in as our starting LF/now RF for years to come when I’m not sure he’s proven himself yet.
パトリック
It's a risk that they've probably assessed
The Rays signed Longoria 9 year deal before he even swung an MLB bat (or close to it). That has worked out extremely well for them, but there was a big risk associated, even with such an excellent prospect. Really, that much money over 5-6 years isn’t a huge risk
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Twitter: @shanecglass
If Tabata signs for something like $30 million over 6 years, we'd better hope he's worth it.
I just think the Pirates are getting ahead of themselves, if this story is correct.
I could be wrong, and someone like dtodd might have more insight into this with his connections, but I got the distinct impression over the past couple months that Hurdle and some others might not have too impressed with Tabata’s efforts at rehab.
He also has seemed distracted at times to me this year-new marriage?
I know he’s a young guy and all. And I really like the player. He might be a good one for us for a number more years. But there’s still just a bit too much “might” in his young career to this point that worries me. I’ll leave it at that for now.
パトリック
This confuses me. So a guy who has the skill but may just seem distracted shouldn’t be considered for long term plans, but that piece of crap Alvarez, who can’t executve, is expected to have all of the time in the world?
Tabata >>> Alvarez in my opinion.
If we’re talking about this year and distractions and lack of production, yes, that piece of crap Alvarez.
So your speaking in terms of this year?
Not in context of him being a piece of crap and never panning out?
age of last winning season: 5
Patthatt said that Hurdle didn’t seem impressed with Tabata this year and didn’t like his recovery time, so it might be scary offereing a guy this contract due to that, based solely on this years variables.
I’m saying, if we’re going just on this year, then why are people so quick to wait for Alvarez and hope he comes around and stops swinging at pitches in the dirt? This year, Tabata has produced, Alvarez hasn’t, so why the hard feelings towards Tabata?
Gotcha
i thought you were just Pedro bashing. I agree. Also i think they wouldnt be extending him if hurdle didnt like him
age of last winning season: 5
"Patthatt said that Hurdle didn’t seem impressed with Tabata this year and didn’t like his recovery time"
I didn’t say it this way at all. I pointed out from my observations of the press conferences I saw while Tabata was out and some things I read elsewhere that I got the impression that Hurdle and some other in the organization weren’t too impressed and asked if someone like dtodd, who might know something definitive due to his job and sources, had anything to add.
パトリック
I know buddy, I didn’t write it in stone, just adding my own thoughts to what you wrote. Simmer down Stick Stickley.
No, you did not, stitch.
Pedro is a “piece of crap,” is he? Well, he’s been awful this year, and I’ve been one of his strongest critics, but I don’t get the description as fecal matter.
Try the wanker act out on someone else.
パトリック
Haven't heard...
anything along those lines.
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Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
I'm not a Alvarez fan
But almost all in the industry say that he has more overall talent than Tabata.
Tabata looks like a 4th OF to me on a good team especially with his lack of power at the corner OF spot. Not sure what the hurry is to extend him at this point. Makes no sense.
tabata just turned 23
He has alot alot of potential. Even if he turns out to be a fringe Starter/4th outfielder his salary aint gunna kill us
age of last winning season: 5
Its wasted resources
that could be going to cutch.
Aint gunna matter
the dudes gunna cash in in the likes of 15-20 mill a year. We will not afford to keep him. And also if tabatas contract includes three options, that gives us a out.
age of last winning season: 5
Minnesota can afford mauer
milwaukee can afford braun but we can’t keep Cutch and we aren’t even a winning team? Makes no sense.
It's whether he wants to be kept
It would be completely reasonable for the guy to want to test the FA market. He still has an outside shot at being worth $35M in his second MLB season. If he averages 5 WAR/year (which is conservative) over the next 4 years, he’ll be in for a staggering payday. Guy could easily get a 4/$120M when he leaves here. Hard to blame him for not wanting to give one of those years away below market rate.
McCutchen
I am sure some of you have heard my bold statement that McCutchen told my brother(next-door neighbor) wants to play for Yankees pinstripes. I was a IDIOT for stating McCutchen told my brother MANY TIME. I asked my brother for a straight number and he said FOUR TIMES. McCutchen loves my brothers fried chicken and filet mignon on the grill. He will only sign a contract through his arbitration years. There has been no talk from the Pirates nor McCutchen and his agent about a long-term deal. WHY? McCutchen will never sign a contract like Tabata that eats into free agent years.
"McCutchen loves my brothers fried chicken and filet mignon on the grill"
I’ll bet I would, too – IF I COULD GET A ^$@king INVITE!
Heh.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 20, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he was in his 30s.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
This makes me nervous
about the progress on the McCutchen extension, especially since reports earlier were they weren’t interested…
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Twitter: @shanecglass
It shouldn't make....
you nervous. There just haven’t been conversations. It’s 2011 and he can’t be a FA until the 2016 season. There isn’t any pressure to get things done and apparently Cutch’s camp is not interested in talking extension at the moment.
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Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
I heard and I think NH and Dejan said that they were talking but Cutch is not willing to give up any FA years, therefore there is nothing to talk about. The FO is using the Red Sox model of not signing players unless they give up FA years, hopefully Cutch will see what is going on and decide to give 1-2 FA years.
Yinzers uber alles
I actually see no way cutch gives up a FA year
If the dude continues on his path to stardom, he is gunna cash in huge. He is going to get carl crawford esque money. Except more, because of inflation. He could be a 180-200 mill player 4 years from now.
age of last winning season: 5
agreed
And him and his agent knows this. He is gone after Arb, and we need to trade him for a boatload a year, or half year before this happens
age of last winning season: 5
As was said above
The bucs NEED to sign the core long-term now that their value is low. Cutch will be hard to do, but right now tabata and alvarez should be managable. Free agency kills small market teams, and the pirates need to understand that a 6-year, $25-35 MM contract is a steal, when any of these players have the potential to make eight digits a year out of free agency
this argument makes no sense. If player A (say Cutch) says I’m not giving up a FA year then there is nothing to discuss. The team has no incentive to sign him when he can’t leave anyway. A perfect example is Papelbon who declined to give a FA to the Sox years ago and therefore is gone after this year.
Yinzers uber alles
If Cutch doesn't want to sign a long-term deal that buys up at least one year of FA right now, so be it.
We do have him for at least 4 more years, right? Why not enjoy the guy’s play now? If there’s a way to keep Cutch for an extra year beyond FA eligibility, I’m sure they will do their best to do so.
パトリック
Signing Tabata
may also show Cutch the team’s commitment to their players, and make him more amenable to staying…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
cocktails42: I see your point, but I think Cutch is thinking about #1, and rightfully so, in this case.
If he continues to improve and stays healthy, he might just be able to realize an annual salary among the top in the game as soon as he’s FA eligible, and this for a number of years from 2016. There is no hurry for him to agree to anything with the Pirates. If the Pirates want to sign him for an extra year through 2016, they would probably have to guarantee him so much money for that one year that it would make little sense to them at this point.
パトリック
No doubt Cutch is looking out for hisself...
and I wouldn’t expect anyone to do otherwise.
However, there is something so be said for being comfortable in one’s environment. If Cutch is happy in PGH, and he’s offered some really good coin, AND he sees that the club is making strides to being a first-division team…
I’m not saying it won’t take a “perfect storm” situation, but hey… baby steps, ‘n’ at.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 19, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
It wouldn’t be unreasonable for Cutch to want the organization to prove something to him before committing a chunk of what will likely be his best years. If so, both Tabata and the draft signings might be the correct medicine. Things have changed in the short time since we heard that Cutch wasn’t interested in selling FA years.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Looks like I was prolly right!
Dejan_Kovacevic Dejan Kovacevic
One component of #Pirates extending Tabata and Walker is to entice Cutch to sign up, too. Cutch’s agent has been tough.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 19, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just plain bad, very bad!
I can’t believe we’re extending a player who is unable realize that his wife isn’t actually pregnant.
no, seriously
I have to question a man’s ability to play baseball when he can’t use basic observation skills.
This is NH most serious blunder ever.
Most serious blunder?
Overbay signing? Aki? Jason Bay trade? Nope. When in doubt go with blind ignorant arguments.
Thanks Cheap Beer if it was a joke its funny (barely) If that’s how your honest opinion I feel bad for any Cheap Kool-Aids you may have.
Twitter: @Filar
Biggest Blunder
Why isn’t the signing of the pathetic Diaz not criticized more on this site? He STINKSs! See my fan post of a few minutes ago.
by pittsburghdad6 on Aug 20, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
we all know full well that Diaz “ain’t” no good. But were not asking him to start 162 games a season and recently we aren’t even asking him to start more than once a week. i really don’t see the big deal…
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line
by lloyd95 on Aug 20, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But I've spent the last few years
building up an immunity to Matt Diaz.
by DG Lewis on Aug 20, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In all fairness to Jose
he most likly didn’t see her during the season
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
CM PUNK IS MY HERO
Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
This is great news
If pedro pans out, no way we keep him long term. I see no way of keeping cutch past arb. I see us keeping Walker, and Tabata outta of the 4, for long term.
age of last winning season: 5
I agree with this. Pedro is as good as gone if he pans out and Cutch will be a very tough sign.
Put on your dancin' shoes.
At the rate Pedro is going right now,
the only way he’ll strike it rich after his current deal is to pan for gold.
パトリック
Yes, we know, Pedro is struggling. Remind us again the next time Pedro is brought up, though.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Where the river is windin'
Big nuggets they’re findin’
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Aug 19, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Truly a great song...
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Can't see this as anything but a win
if reports of 3 team options in the out years are right. Instead of running the pinball machine known as arbitration, the Pirates know what their maximum cost to keep Jose is. Also, if Jose is a rational human being, he knows that to get the Pirates to exercise the option, he needs to perform. If he doesn’t perform, he gets cut and presumably has played poorly enough that even on the market he’s now looking at less money.
What does that mean?!
Agreed.
Also IF somehow they can sign cutch, Knowing what we are paying tabata for the next 6 years makes siging cutch alittle easier because we know what our financial means are.
age of last winning season: 5
a little worried here
tabata has played about a full year of baseball, not sure im ready to give him a lot of money.
It's really not that much.....
He’s already produced 3.2 WAR in about a full year of baseball at a young age.
~$5 Mil a year is pretty good value for THAT, and it’s a good bet that he improves. Add in inflation and this is a very good wager.
What he’s done so far is “worth” $13.5 according to FanGraphs’ value metrics.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
by CTapps on Aug 19, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No no no
The offseason is boring, save it for November so we have stuff to talk about. Who is running their PR department?
Anyone see Dejan's tweet?
He says 6 years plus 3 team options?
Does that mean 6 years total, or a nine year deal? Nine years of Tabata would be stellar.
I’m not sure I like nine years. That’s a hell of a long time for something to go wrong.
That said, if they can lock him up for 4-5M per season for a while, that’s a bargain. He’ll wayyyy outproduce that in terms of WAR dollars for a little while longer.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Aug 19, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It isn't 9 years....
that is why the are options. After 6 years the team gets to re-evaluate on a year-to-year basis.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Virtually no chance....
of that.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
Then there is
much less value to the team with the options. The Doumit deal is a prime example and I’m not sure I’ve seen any deal before structured as a multi-year option that has a one time exercise clause.
Also, if you look at any deal structured like this (ie Evan Longoria) that is how it generally works.
The Hammer Speaks
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Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
well, it depends on the value i guess
but because Longoria was so badly burned (in terms of value), I d be surprised if players/agents would just be willing to give up that much. Maybe have the last 2 of those be picked up together or something.
If true,
It’s hard not to be excited about the Bucs making this sort of a move. That said, count me amongst those not yet convinced that Tabata is going to be a significant piece to the puzzle. I’m not ruling him out by any means, but I’d rather see a stretch like Cutch has had and pay for it than dive in at this point on a player without a power pedigree.
Good day.
Sounds interesting...
…but I’m going to wait for more hard information before spending too much time on analysis here.
+1
Couldn’t agree more
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Aug 19, 2011 5:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Extend Tabata, Cutch and Walker
Make fewer $4+M stopgap free agent signings, and pay rookie minimums to Hague, Marte and the upcoming class of pitchers for a few years and our payroll will actually only go up slightly. Morton, McDonald and Karstens are still pretty cheap and will likely not get too expensive through arbitration.
And of course, we have increased ticket/parking/concessions revenue this year and hopefully into the future (with increased prices on the way) to support a 15-25% bump in payroll. Give Cutch somewhere in the ballpark of what Bruce and others got, plus maybe a little extra to show that we love him.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Also, this shows the Pirates internal assessment of their OF
If Marte and Presley continue to develop, it would seem that there would be a logjam in the OF, with at least 4 guys 25 or younger for 3 positions (not to mention Gorkys, who seems like a 4th OF/trade bait or Grossman a little further down). The willingness to extend means that they believe Tabata is clearly not going to be outplayed by BOTH Marte and Presley in the next few years, and will deserve one of the two starting gigs remaining.
I’m guessing they’re still not sold on Presley as an everyday player, or this extension doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense, depth-chart wise.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Or
they realize how much value Tabata will have if he performs. You can get a kings ransom for a cost controlled guy like that, if you need to. Not saying they should trade him, but if things break right for everyone else he becomes very tradable. Either way, it would be nice to lock him up, whatever the future use will be.
by Wizard of Woz on Aug 19, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
This exactly.
As long as Tabata keeps going his trajectory, this is a fantastic deal.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
No trade clause?
Is there any whiff of this? It could explain Tabata being willing to give up so many years since he seems to really love being a Pirate.
Add to this: Biertempfel says Neil Walker is also close to a long-term extension. Tabata’s deal could be announced as soon as tomorrow.
Linkage: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/pirates/s_752477.html#.Tk7NZnf5aAw.twitter
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
And NFW, too!
Wheeee!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 19, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
no jinx no jinx no jinx
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 19, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Me, too...
(Love my #31)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 19, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
at least you wear a t shirt
Nutting is too cheap for t shirts and always looks like Eric Estrada
Yinzers uber alles
wow
i must admit i’d be at least a little apprehensive about both. The FO must really believe these guys are gonna perform, and improve from where they are.
And it’d have the effect of showing the public (if they are willing to see) that an extension would have been out there for Cutch if he was willing to come to terms on a reasonable number.
Charlie
I agree with it, and said something similar in one of the other threads.
I tend to think the base value of the contract will be more like $20-25 million, rather than $25-30
I’d expect them to structure it as $2M for the first 2 (pre-arb) years, $4M, $6M, $7M, with 3 options each $8M (or 8, 9, 10) (I will admit $10M per is just as likely).
As I argued before, there is a chance the last 2 may need to be picked up together or something like that.
Its better than spending on the next Overbay and Diaz
But I’m seriously at a lost for what the FO is doing. We aren’t even a winning team yet and we are extending guys who aren’t even at the elite at their position? Yeah I know we have to pay somebody but I’ve haven’t seen enough of walker and Tabata to say these guys are a given to produce every year.
Wonder what this means for the Maholm option and the Doumit/Snyder options?
These wouldn’t affect either option since Tabata/Walker wouldn’t make more than $1-2 mil next year. The deals would be weighted towards the later years, I’d imagine.
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 19, 2011 5:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And
if they are club options, we don’t have to take them. Basically we pay them a little more over the course of their team controlled years, giving us the option of keeping them around at a reasonable cost if we want to.
Definitely a win for the team.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 19, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think another factor is the anticipation that we won't have as many holes to fill with crappy FA
Between Ronny lowering his suck level to something more palatable, Wood looking like a capable bench player and d’Arnaud and/or Mercer looking like they might be able to turn into something replacement-level or better, our only real place to be buyers for next year would be 1B.
We still have almost all of our SP back if we pick up Maholm’s option. Pedro doesn’t look pretty right now, but there’s no way we sign someone to block him. And the bullpen might require one or two moves, but we’ve seen NH is a fan of the under-the-radar reclamation project there.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Walker is up there at his position...
…and Tabata could be a top flight OFer, or close to it. Gotta take some risks.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
We aren’t even a winning team yet and we are extending guys who aren’t even at the elite at their position?
Guys who are “elite” at their position are extremely rare, by definition. The only guy who qualifies for us is Cutch, clearly.
I think the term “replacement player” has made people forget that an average player is still a good asset for a team. Plenty of teams, even good teams, are running out one or two sub-average players every night. The best teams are not always those with a few superstars, but those with zero “black holes.”
These extensions are un=possible,
and we all know that the Cole & Bell signings are a fabrication.
Because Nutting is cheap.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
I'd be shocked if both these dudes had hit their peaks right now,
and I’m pretty exciting about the look of these contracts. Sign two young guys with good tools to team friendly contracts? I like it so far.
Walker is probably close to his peak, though he could improve slightly (especially with the glove). I think we can expect him to average 2-3 WAR throughout the length of his contract. Tabata should improve. I don’t think 4 WAR at his best is out of reach, but 2-3 is more likely. Both should provide good value in the long run, and Tabata could turn into a steal.
I think Walker's bat over the next couple years
will be much better than it is this season, mostly cause this season its not that good. His power’s always been one of his better tools, and it hasn’t really showed up this year, but I expect it to eventually. An OPS somewhere between 775 and 800 is certainly within reach, though I’d be surprised if he ended up better than that. Agree with you about the value otherwise though, specially with Tabata. I’m happy.
wow this is fucking awesome
/excuse the language
Tabata is the crap shoot depending on how he continues to develop. He grows into himself and gets that power stroke, we win. he keeps up at the pace he plays at now, cost wise, i’m sure its still a good deal for us, but not exactly what we were hoping for.
I think Walker has shown that he can hit MLB pitching and is at least adequate in the field. If we don’t have to use him as the god damn cleanup hitter each year i think he becomes that much more valuable, esp at 2B.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Woah
I was wondering how Neal would top signing Cole Bell, but signing NFW and Tabata to deals that at least buy out arb and maybe give team options is quite nice. The extra attendance and fan interest has paid off, its nice to see the Pirates putting some of that money back into the players. The Pirates could easy save 10-15 milion per player on arb years AND would have a club friendly option year/years.
holy moley, i m on board with this one now!
From MLBTR:
Rojas reports that the total value of the contract would be $37.25MM if the three options are exercised (link in Spanish). Tabata would receive a $1MM signing bonus, and his salary in 2011 would increase to $500K. He would then earn $750K in 2012, $1MM in 2013, $3MM in 2014, $4MM in 2015, and $4.5MM in 2016. The three option years would potentially be worth another $22.5MM combined.
also
i… uh… dont…. get this… why would a player sign to that? I wonder if he’s kinda worried about his health, and the FO is willing to roll the dice?
If he actually breaks through, this is the ridiculous-est contract ever!
I’m sure the contract will be insured, so it’s not like we’d be totally up the creek if Tabata gets hurt.
Tabata, on the other hand, will have a hard time finding an insurance policy that’ll pay him $15M if he gets hurt.
oh, absolutely
i mean, if you’re getting a deal like this with Tabata, do it. That’s not a hard call at all.
And you’re right about Tabata’s end too, but that’d worry me a bit as a fan regarding what it says about him (healthwise, not as a person)
i… uh… dont…. get this… why would a player sign to that?
Ever been offered 37 million? What impact would that have on your life?
Yinzers uber alles
Right
To some people, there is no functional difference between $57M and $37M. So take the guaranteed $37M when it’s offered.
hehe, when you put it that way...
but in reality, it doesnt work that way for these guys, does it?
Also, I m curious— does he have an agent? Or did he work this out on his own?
Its not 37M, its 15 (which is still enough to me, but thats not the point here), but gosh, if this holds and he signs for that, its crazy (good for the Pirates)!
I'm sure he has an agent
And I wouldn’t be surprised if the agent is unhappy about the deal, what with the lower commission he’s gonna get. But his job is to do what Tabata wants, and if Tabata’s satisfied, not too much the agent can do about it.
Whoa
So I read that article Waxy Case just linked below, and it reads to me like Tabata dropped his agent in order to get the deal done.
thats pretty crazy
but given the (sudden) lack of clarity over his representation, I suspected something like this might be brewing. FWIW, it says a lot about him as a person if the reason for his doing this is his respect for Clemente. As someone who’s claimed that players (and even draft picks) are going to be far far more concerned about the money than anything else, I thought I should concede that :-)
I just hope he turns into a super baseball player, now!
Can’t complain about that kind of value!
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 19, 2011 6:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
looks pretty official.
Heres the same in english through ESPN.
This is an absolutely fantastic deal for the Pirates.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 19, 2011 7:13 PM EDT reply actions
I was already pleased
before I got to the end of the thread and saw the apparently awesome terms. Wow.
I also agree with Charlie about Walker, but understand if it’s part of a charm offensive with Cutch. And frankly, if Walker’s deal looks anything like Tabata’s, it’s good value even if the guy’s plateaued.
well something i didn't know
but it looks like Walker will reach Super Two status. So even if we get cost control on him, it will be better than 4 yrs of uncertainty/guess work at what his contract would be. we get a year or two of FA and we more than likely win again.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
i think Walker has a good shot
at averaging something like 2.5-3WAR and OPSing 770ish…
if he signs a reasonable contract, its fine, but I’d hesitate to lock him down, simply because I hope we’ll get others coming up the farm system that can do that… still, that kind of contract is eminently tradeable so its fine.
I understand the age difference
But it’s hard for me to see how, with respect to a contract that doesn’t buy out free agency, Walker could be viewed as a bigger risk than Tabata.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 20, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
no
both are risks, and you;re probably right that Tabata is the bigger risk
by BurgherKing on Aug 20, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Regarding Cutch
I know there was just a thread on him, but I didn’t see anyone running numbers. So, just for my own edification:
2011: $400k
2012: $450k
2013: $8M
2014: $11M
2015: $16M
That’s my estimate of a likely course of Cutch’s earnings as a Pirate. Total of $36. His minimum FA salary for 2016 is going to be on the order of $25M; could well be above $30 if this year isn’t a fluke. So to get Andrew’s attention, the total value of a contract that buys out his first FA year needs to be in the neighborhood of $60M. Maybe a bit below, but not much; if he puts up 6+ WAR each year for the next 4 seasons, he’ll be in for a massive payday. And one thing about Cutch: he seems to be extremely confident in his abilities. I bet he has no doubt that he’s going to be a $30M man.
So the question is: if you’re NH, do you pay Cutch 60M to stay here the next 5 years? Structured roughly like so:
2011: $1M + $5M bonus
2012: $3M
2013: $7M
2014: $10M
2015: $15M
2016: $19M
Me, I want to frontload it as much as practical, as this year and next will show modest overall payrolls, and 2013 not too bad, either. You end up getting the arb years at a slight discount, and the FA year at a steep one. But Cutch gets to live like a rock star starting now, not in 2 years.
i ran numbers a while back
although i dont remember them now :P
I think you’re overestimating though… i’d bring down 3M on each of the arb year estimates. I think he’d cost about $27M, maybe 30M for his arb years. I’d say if his deal starts in 2012, I’d not want to pay him more than 36M for those years and maybe 2 more years at 18M… so 6 years, 70-75M… I feel like this is more than I’d come up with in my previous estimate, but anyway…
$8 million in 2013....
sounds like a too high starting point to be. While Cutch is a very good player he isn’t an outright superstar and arbitration isn’t designed to determine market value. More likely to start around $5-6.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
The Pirates...
Can’t pay $19 million for a center fielder. Sorry, I don’t care who you are. That’s just the cards we’ve been dealt.
They could certainly do it for a year or two with the right planning
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
@ChristianTappe
an extra year or two for the "window" would be huge
We’ve all been looking at that 2013-2016 period as the point where things will (hopefully) all click at once. But of course, every year there’s plenty of great teams that don’t win the World Series. If we can keep Cutch a little longer with the Taillon/Cole/Heredia/Bell crowd, that would give us a much better chance of actually winning something.
If Tabata did agree to this deal just because of how much he loves Clemente, I really, really hope they don’t trade him. This really is a hometown discount.
yeah
i was thinking that… but in this business, I don’t see that happening… it’d be funny if he took a big step forward though, and ended up as a Pirate for life…
Tabata just said “I want to be a Pirate more than I want maximum coin.” He should be a fan favorite from now through forever.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
the man
is all smiles all time, whether he is on the bench or in the game. whether he just got on base or made an error. how can anyone not ROOT for someone like that.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Derp.
His wife steals babies and he gets injured a lot and he has a low batting average.
Derp. Derp. Derp.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 20, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I really don't think I should have to tell you that.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 20, 2011 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
No, I need to know too
I vaugely think there’s some tv show that I don’t watch where a character says “derp, derp, derp.” But I don’t know if it signifies sarcasm or dweebishness.
What does that mean?!
Great thing about this deal...
… is that assuming Tabata continues to improve and the Bucs decide to trade him at his peak for a more “power hitting” corner outfielder (or any position of need) – they’ll have an above-average player, plus a great contract to dangle out there. Two positives.
In fact, if Tabata ends up not improving and the ever-small-market Bucs want to clear $3-11.5 million off the books (assuming club, not player, options) – teams will be more likely to take Tabata off the Pirates hands, or at least, less unlikely due to salary constraints.
Win-win, win win win. Go NH. Must be the anti-Littlefield move of the year.
Littlefield move of the year:
Get Hendry fired and convince the Ricketts to hire him to replace him.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 20, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
So OT question...
Is there anyone in Pittsburgh who wants a free ticket for the game tomorrow afternoon? The only catch is that you’ll have to sit next to me…
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
if they didn't move the game time up
i woulda said yes. (yes i know this does not answer your question)
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Damn.
Are you sure?
Because nobody else seems to want it.
Maybe ask again tomorrow and see if there’s someone else out there….
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 20, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah sorry
just got home now. see how the time change effected me lol
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Hey man...
If you want to hang out tomorrow afternoon, just let me know. I don’t have any tickets for it yet, so just send me an email and we can arrange it.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 20, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
couple of my thoughts
great deal for the bucs. Any time a player takes a home town discount like this, it says volumes about that player’s priorities and more about the franchises abilities and priorities. This deal, a deal with Walker, and hopefully a deal with cutch could go a long way to enticing FA’s to take a harder look at Pittsburgh.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 20, 2011 9:27 AM EDT reply actions
That has a nice sound to it, but.....
…..I think that there are only two (2) things which will entice FA’s to take a harder look at Pittsburgh.
1. Money. Giving money to other players, especially team-friendly contracts, ain’t gonna entice FA’s.
2. Improvement in team performance. After money, the most important factor for most FA’s is signing with a competitive team. As Pirate fans, we see improvement in the team’s performance. But as the 2011 team “settles” in the standings, it seems that the first half which excited us as Pirate fans isn’t going to be enough to convince most FA’s that the Pirates are going to be a contender any time soon.
So….. I would say that, if the Bucs are successful at signing Tabata, Walker, and McCutchen to extensions, that would be only a small step (rather than going a long way) toward enticing FA’s to give Pittsburgh more consideration.
If one takes a realistic look at the big picture….. even if the Pirates were to become convincingly competitive, our team would still need to offer FA’s money that is (at least) competitive with offers from other teams, in order to entice such players to come to Pittsburgh. Like it or not, the Pirates will never be a significant player in the market for significant free agents.
We have never been a major player in the high FA market
Whatever if it’s the 1960, 1971, 1979 WS teams or the 90-92 NL East division teams, those teams got to where they are by smart drafting and savvy trading.
by Bradley James McEachern on Aug 27, 2011 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Just a point
FA didn’t begin until 976
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 28, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Any thoughts on what the potential Walker deal would look like? 5/$22MM plus options maybe?
by Adam Reynolds on Aug 20, 2011 9:31 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
The best thing about this deal: In terms of WAR dollars, he’s worth his contract and then some if he’s even a 1-WAR player. He’s already twice that good, so any more progression is gravy.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
I've been out of the loop the past couple days.
First thought on reading about this: Holy hell. So basically, we bought out all of Tabata’s arb years for less than he would have gotten anyway, and tacked on three relatively cheap FA years, which we’re not even locked into using. Sounds good to me. Really, really good, in fact.
Second thought: Holy hell. There are people who are actually upset about this deal?
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever
Sure.
Here, here, and here, apparently.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever
Unfortunately
Waiting on conformation that Tabata and Walker are going to be consistently wins above replacement players is not a luxury the Pirates have. They may have already made a mistake by not going after McCutchen sooner. Time will tell on that one. In a perfect world, we all would like to wait, but given the circumstances, I like the deal for Tabata and expect Walker’s to be something close to his.
I don't understand....
why it isn’t clear to people that it is McCutchen, not the Pirates, who does want to give up any of his free agency seasons and that is why a they aren’t even discussing a long-term deal.
Doing a 4-year deal doesn’t really do anything for the Pirates. They would be paying guaranteed money without gaining any real benefit. Going year-to-year and paying “market” value, knowing that next year will be about $500k seems to make sense given the alternative.
The Hammer Speaks
Extra Innings
Twitter: @DTonPirates and @hammerspeaks
I understand
But do you think McCutchen would have turned would have turned down a contract like Longoria got before he came up?
Yes, because Longoria’s contract gives his first three free agent years to the team as options. Which McCutchen has made very clear he has not been willing to do.
Also, because I’m a stickler for details and not because it really affects your point, Longoria signed his contract about a week after his debut.
Doing a 4-year deal doesn’t really do anything for the Pirates. They would be paying guaranteed money without gaining any real benefit.
Presumably, they would get a slight discount on his expected performance in a long-term deal covering those seasons in order to compensate for the risk of him suffering some type of debilitating injury. That’s a pretty small benefit, though.
Just an estimate, but I think $51 million over the next 6 years would be an awfully hard figure for McCutchen to turn down. He’s not hit his big payday yet, but that type of contract would assure it. Yes, he could likely get more once he hits free agency, but that is four years away. From a player’s standpoint, as is the case in a lot of aspects of life, it’s sometimes wise to take the safe approach.
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