Robbie Grossman: Why OBP Isn't The Only Thing
It's a little strange to have written about the minor leagues as little as I have this season, but I guess that's what relevant major-league baseball will do. Today, though, a note about Robbie Grossman.
This season, Grossman has undergone a weird transformation in the eyes of Pirates fans. Last year, some people were writing him off as a bust. This year, people are beginning to pencil him in as an outfielder of the future.
In my opinion, both positions are, or were, exaggerated.
Grossman's story, before this year, had been all about age relative to league and his strikeout-to-walk ratio. In 2009, he struck out 164 times at West Virginia. That's a horrible number for a minor leaguer at any level, but Grossman was only 19 and was playing in a full-season league, and it's somewhat impressive that he even held his own there.
In 2010, he only posted a .688 OPS as a 20-year-old at Class A+, but he was a lot younger than most of the players there, and he significantly improved his control of the strike zone, striking out "only" 118 times while not losing many walks.
This year, he's posting a remarkable .429 OBP, which has people salivating. He has taken another step forward with the K:BB ratio, too. Those are real improvements, and I'm not dismissing them at all. He's definitely a real prospect at this point.
The problem, though, is that he's still either walking or striking out in a huge percentage of his plate appearances. If he were a major-leaguer posting his current line of .290/.429/.426, he'd be incredibly valuable. But major-league pitching isn't the same as Class A+ pitching, and a guy who's striking out about 18 percent of the time and walking about 20 percent of the time in Class A+ isn't necessarily going to have an easy time getting his skill set to work against pitchers with good control and command, particularly if he's not (yet) much of a power hitter.
In other words, I would take Grossman's OBP with a grain of salt right now. Yes, he's pretty much dominating at Class A+, but I think he's doing so in a way that turns out to be unsustainable for most players. It's good that he's taking walks, but once a Class A+ prospect passes the point where, say, he's walking in about 10 percent of plate appearances, I don't think more walks really adds a lot to his profile. I would gladly trade 40 of the 94 walks Grossman has now for fewer strikeouts and a handful more hits.
The most encouraging thing about Grossman's season, from a statistical perspective, is that his batting average is better. It's at .290, up from .245 last year. At the Class A+ level, a hitting prospect really should be learning to hit the ball, not just wait out pitchers who are having trouble getting the ball into the zone.
Grossman is obviously a better prospect than Evan Chambers at this stage, but this is similar to the problem I have with the idea of Chambers as a prospect. Chambers does a great job controlling the strike zone ... against A-ball hitters. (He even has some power and athleticism, to boot.) But he does a ton of waiting for ball four, and that's going to be a tendency that's incredibly easy for major-league pitchers to exploit if he's not even capable of clearing a .250 batting average at Class A+.
This is also one reason why Starling Marte is almost universally viewed as a better prospect than either of them. (Marte's insane toolsiness is a much more obvious reason.) Marte rarely draws walks at all, but that's a skill he can develop later, to some degree, as long as he's able to hit .300, which he has done over and over.
(This isn't to say that there aren't issues with Marte, like his tendency to leg out a lot of infield singles, which might turn into outs against major-league defenses. Grossman might indeed turn out to be the better player. But I'd much rather have Marte right now.)
I think Grossman has taken a nice step forward this year, but he still has a lot to work on before his skills will transfer to the majors. If you have a major-leaguer who's hitting .290/.429/.426, then hey, great - All-Star! But if you have a Class A+ ballplayer who's doing that, you need to ask what else he's bringing to the table, and his development needs to focus on that, or else he's going to turn into ... I don't know, Jamey Carroll without the positional versatility. Grossman needs to cut down on his strikeouts. (Kyle Stark himself said this when I talked to him in March.) Grossman needs to develop more power. And he needs to maintain the high average he's posted this year. He has had a great season in many ways, and he deserves much of the praise he's gotten recently. But let's not pencil him in as an outfielder of the future just yet.
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Grossman’s K rate is almost exactly league average and his power is improving. The last two months he’s slugged .480. He’s not where he needs to be in the end, but he’s not that far off and he’s still moving in the right direction. The important thing is that he offers a package with some very productive elements. Hopefully he can get the mix right.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Random, probably stupid, question
Has anybody ever looked at the fact that the average Class A pitcher is fairly lousy/inexperienced and can’t control the strike zone? I could see this really messing with batters’ approaches, especially since ball 4 is probably pretty likely regardless of count and situation. I think I remember this being an issue with a couple of players whose profiles changed substantially after they started seeing better pitchers (or at least that was the theory).
No, of course I can’t remember the players…
ball 4 is probably pretty likely regardless of count and situation.
These A-ball pitches, they can throw ball 4 on a 1-2 count… :-)
yeah they throw 3
at a time down there sometimes
While I don’t think anyone will argue that Grossman is near the prospect that Marte is;
Grossman
.290/.429/.426 at A+. 21 years old. 22%K, 24%BB, 23SB, 9CS
Marte
.315/.386/.432 at A+, 21 years old. 26%K, 5%BB, 22SB, 8CS
Grossman has put up similar average, a little more power, better BB rate, similar SB production. Yes, Marte’s numbers are superior, especially considering that was his second year in the USA. I’m just saying that Grossman has become very interesting and a player to watch in AA at 22 next year.
by rutang on Aug 2, 2011 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
K%
I was just doing a quick and dirty comp and I didn’t look for PA’s. I guess I could have estimated PA’s as ABs + BB.
The point was to show some similarity in the numbers. Marte is a better prospect, but Grossman has gotten himself closer to the prospect map.
no, i m actually genuinely curious
I dont know what the right way to do it is, and while i figured you were using ABs, I still want to know what it is that should be used, and maybe it is ABs
Fangraphs
Fangraphs uses PAs for both.
It makes sense to capture the PAs in both metrics.
Yep
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I prefer K/AB as a predictive tool, personally, but to each his own.
by Vlad on Aug 2, 2011 5:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Using K/AB will give you a more-encouraging-than-is-warranted picture of high BB/high K hitters in the low minors, like Chambers.
It’s also handier as an off-the-cuff tool when you see a guy’s raw stat line at a park, since the danger zone on K/AB happens to fall at an easily divisible 25%, while with K/PA it’s some other, less convenient number.
Posted
this below, but just found it and it fit perfectly so I figured I’d share
Dan (Jersey): Pirate Question. Which prospect Marte or Grossman has higher upside. Do you think Gorky has regained prospect status with his performance this year or do you think he is still defense outfield with a poor bat.
Jim Callis: Marte, easily, though Grossman has has a nice year. Still see Gorky as more of a glove guy than a difference-maker.
Not that there was ever really a question.
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by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Marte vs Grossman
Marte’s numbers are superior because Marte is clearly a centerfielder. Grossman is likely going to be a corner guy and his numbers are viewed in that context. That said I’m more than pleased with his development this year. He’s added some power, likely enough to maintain an above average walk rate, assuming is plate discipline is that strong. He’s not a perfect prospect but he is moving in the right direction. I’d like to see him heep his K rate below 20% and continue to improve upon his slugging but I look at this year as a positive. I’m still not sure he’s a top 10 prospect though but he is in the discussion given his performance this year.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Let's see here
I’d imagine that Taillon, Sanchez, Marte, Allie, Heredia, Cole, and Bell are all no brainers to be ranked ahead of him, for a variety of reasons.
I’d also guess that McPherson, Curry, Dickerson, Morris, Owens, Rojas, and Locke are roughly the next tier or prospects, along with Grossman. That puts Grossman pretty safely into the 8-14 range in my book, unless Bell doesn’t sign in which case everybody bumps up one spot.
So maybe
1. Taillon
2. Cole
3. Bell
4. Marte
5. Heredia
6. Sanchez
7. Allie
8. Matt Curry
9. Rudy Owens
10. Robbie Grossman
11. Kyle McPherson
12. Jeff Locke
13. Bryan Morris
14. Alex Dickerson
15. Mel Rojas Jr.
Of course
that’s all subect to change going forward, and I can see arguments for a few guys to be higher/lower, but it should be a rough estimate
don't forget Cunningham
I think Jarek Cunningham gets in my top 15. He has holes, but he has some power too. Another interesting 22 yo at AA next year.
Forgot all about him
Probably because he hasn’t played in forever. What’s his injury?
He also has some massive contact problems, but the power/positional value would be enough for him to have made the list above. Next year will probably be a big year in determining his value.
No
Cunningham? Come on Woo.
1. Taillon
2. Cole
3. Marte
4. Heredia
5. Bell
6. Sanchez
7. Allie
8. Curry
9. Grossman
10. Cunningham (Dude was starting to walk before he got hurt (?))
11. Morris (I still really like him)
12. McPherson
13. Owens
14. Dickerson
15. Hernandez (Gorkys still has that glove)
16. Locke
17. Wilson
18. Mercer
19. Cain
20. Von Rosenberg
21. Rojas Jr.
22. Dodson
23. Kingham
24. Hanson
25. Cabrera (Ramon)
Around 15, I had to start getting some floor guys in there.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Alen Hanson!
and yes, yes I did. I promise you I said to myself “keep going until you can get Hanson in there.”
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yet
MITT managed to pass over Osuna!
Cain and Dickerson may need to be moved up that list. Dickerson’s pre-draft ranking put him into the first round comp picks. In a shallow draft he makes it into the first round, and he gained that status even though he was injured his draft year.
s.zielinski
I like
Cain alot, but his recent starts have been.. meh.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Untouchable
In the mind of Jason Parks. His mind is hilariously skewed towards Texans overall, but he said that he could see Cain adding a few mph and being a beast overall if I remember correctly. It was in the last podcast or two.
Marte's numbers are NOT superior
he is a superior prospect because he’s a step higher, players better D at a more valuable position and has superior tools.
I think we just said the same thing...
When I evaluate their performance I’m taking into consideration their position. Marte is a CF and Grossman is a corner and I look at their numbers within that context.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I'm not an expert...
…on how to evaluate minor-league statistics relative to age, level, etc.
What I will say is that I find it refreshing that we have a guy like Robbie Grossman in the system to discuss his positives and negatives and where he may fall in the system’s rankings.
For too many seasons, especially under the Littlefield management group, were we left with players like Yoslan Herrera and Brian Bixler in the Top 10. The fact that our system has significant depth that an intriguing player like Grossman is borderline top-10 is much better than having a bunch of non-prospects cluttering up the top of the list.
Under DL
we seemed to have mostly players that were too old for their level. Success by Jason Delaney and Steve Pearce at A+ meant little because there were 24 years old. Now we have a lot of guys that are showing some success while be young or at least age appropriate for their level.
If Grossman was in the last draft
he would have been a top 15 pick
Agreed
unless you meant top 15 rounds. In this past draft, he’d probably a 8th-10th rounder. If he keeps this up, I bet he’d be in the top 3 rounds in next years class.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
His stock has gone down since he was drafted?
I find that hard to believe. He was a 6th round pick when drafted and I’m pretty sure he was ranked higher than that. He would be a top 2 round pick.
Before
June 6th (or whatever day the draft was) sure his stock had dipped. He’s not particularly toolsy, so he would have been a college guy with mediorce stats. He OPS’d .826 in April and .670 in May after a bad year at A+ ball. On his way to another bad year at age 21 in A+ ball (appropriate, but not young) would have caused his stock to drop significantly.
He might have not even been selected in the top 20 rounds this past June. On the other hand, this coming June, if he keeps up these 900 OPS+ months, he could have been a pick in the top 2 or 3 rounds.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
no.49 prospect by BA in draft year
average tools all around, ~.750 OPS at A+ as a 21 year old is at least holding your own, not “bad,” as you suggest. I strongly disagree, but whatever.
Okay
I understand what you are saying, but he doesn’t wow with tools like a George Springer. Had he went to college, and put up the equivalent numbers in college that he did in the minors, right up until the draft, he would have had two “down” seasons in a row. Even if you adjust the pro stats and make them equivalent college stats, I don’t see his 2010 and April/May 2011 stats being even average college stats, even with his age factored in.
If you understand that and disagree, I respect that; just not sure you understand what I’m trying to say. He wouldn’t be the #49 prospect again. He might be around this time next year, all of course in my opinion.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree that you can just run a formula and calculate what his numbers would have been in college, with metal bats, against exclusively kids in his age group, against generally less talented pitchers.
I’m basing my opinion off his previous prospect status and him not doing anything the last two years, in my mind, to lower that, at least not significantly.
Robbie Grossman will have a longer, more successful MLB career than Starling Marte.
(And we’ll have to come back to this in 10 years or so to see who was right.)
パトリック
I'm
taking Marte hands down. Love Grossman too, but positional defensive value.. too much for Grossman to overcome.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case....
Both will win 3 WS Rings with the Pirates, Marte will play 5 and Grossman 8 seasons for the Pirates.
Just
cause I stumbled upon it and it fit perfectly into this discussion.
Dan (Jersey): Pirate Question. Which prospect Marte or Grossman has higher upside. Do you think Gorky has regained prospect status with his performance this year or do you think he is still defense outfield with a poor bat.
Jim Callis: Marte, easily, though Grossman has has a nice year. Still see Gorky as more of a glove guy than a difference-maker.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll see in about 2020
who’s had the better career for sure. I have no doubt that Marte has superior “upside” at this point. However, something tells me when looking at their progress so far that Grossman will have a longer, less injury-filled, and ultimately more succesful career.
It’s O.K. to put things off for a decade. That’s what the government does.
パトリック
If Starling Marte becomes a top-notch player in Pgh. in a year or two,
we’ll have to thank Dave Littlefield once again.
パトリック
Littlefield would’ve traded him this year for Pudge Rodriguez.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Littlefield did have his share of decent prospects, really. He just…never held onto them.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
No he didn't
He had precious few decent prospects and just… never held onto them.
He inherited some that had been brought in under Bonifay by Mickey White, and then pissed them away. Bronson Arroyo, Chris Young, Jose Bautista, Leo Nunez, etc.
by Vlad on Aug 2, 2011 5:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
WTM
The Cubs think highly of DL’s ability to judge talent and just look at the success they are having after he’s been there for a few years.
パトリック
Grossman/Marte
If I took defense out of the equation, I would rate Grossman above Marte as a prospect. I think Marte has an uphill battle to conquer his strikezone issues. I’m not seeing the progress. Grossman hitting homeruns is a big development, because that is the one thing he needs to do for the rest of his numbers to be acceptable.
Well
ya, “if” you took defense out of the equation, Grossman is the better hitter, but I think that’s just on floor. Marte has a higher ceiling offensively, and matches Grossman’s overall floor with his glove. In my opinion, strikezone issues included, Marte is head and shoulders above Grossman, who’s a solid prospect in his own right.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Also probably worth noting
That Tim Williams loves Robbie Grossman. Talks about him being his favorite story all the time on twitter
Maybe it's because he is a symbol of the Huntington organizaiton...
this is the first late round guy the Pirates when seven figures over-slot to get. He represents everything NH stands for in terms of draft philosophy and everything DL didn’t believe in. I’m pulling hard for this guy to succeed, along with Cunnhingham. I mean I want everyone to succeed but these guys are kind of my favorites for the reasons I listed.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I
like this. Too bad good ole Quinton (pronounced – qui-en like Stuart Scott does) has blossomed like Grossman has. I still think he’s too young to completely dismiss either though.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep Miller is in the same category.
Though he needs to start showing something and simply stay on the field.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
Yep
that was supposed to read “hasn’t blossomed” but I’m sure y’all figured that one out, haha.
For Miller, staying on the field is the first step. I saw one start of his a last year in WV and he was touching 95, so there’s still potential there.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
In
other news. Heredia got absolutely dumped on, crushed, lit up, destroyed, rocked.. pick your term
3IP, 7H, 5ER, BB, K, 3HR.
Alen Hanson is 2-2, 2B though!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
Heredia can't do much wrong in my eyes at this point
Just staying healthy is my entire wish list for this guy this year and next. His pitching repertoire was halved, so now he’s focusing on developing fastball command, as well as getting comfortable with his changeup and curveball. He’s not even 17 yet, and playing with guys several years older/more experienced than he is.
Double
posted cause it’s double right. I’d love to see 4 IP, 2H, 1BB, 7K’s or something, but the best thing is just seeing him pitch innings. Still so incredibly young; exciting he is stateside at all really.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Heredia can't do much wrong in my eyes at this point
Just staying healthy is my entire wish list for this guy this year and next. His pitching repertoire was halved, so now he’s focusing on developing fastball command, as well as getting comfortable with his changeup and curveball. He’s not even 17 yet, and playing with guys several years older/more experienced than he is.
nice post, Charlie
The ultra-passive approach is a big concern, in my eyes, for Grossman, and I’m glad you pointed it out instead of shrugging it off like a lot of people do.
There are two other significant reasons for concern about Grossman. One is that he’s repeating the FSL. I know he has a good ARL still, but it took him a full season plus the first two months of this year before he started hitting in A+ ball. That doesn’t make his stats worthless, but it’s definitely a red flag.
The other big concern is that no one really believes in his power potential anymore, the Pirates included. When he was drafted, people were hoping for a five-tool talent, but he no longer fits that profile. Here is an article from spring training in which Kyle Stark admits that Grossman projects for average-at-best power. For a corner outfielder who Ks a lot, average power is not going to cut it. His upside looks to me like Kosuke Fukudome with more Ks.
As you say, Charlie, I think Grossman is a legitimate prospect, but I’d only give him a C grade right now. (I’d actually put Chambers just above him, because I think he has more power potential and is more likely a CF long term.) Once you get beyond the walks, there are a lot of holes in his profile.
The list of guys who put up a BA as low as Chambers’s in the low minors and went on to have a productive MLB career is pretty short.
by Vlad on Aug 2, 2011 6:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
epoc wrote:
(I’d actually put Chambers just above him, because I think he has more power potential and is more likely a CF long term.)
The power potential doesn’t mean squat if he can’t make consistent contact, especially at the low level he’s at now.
His upside looks to me like Kosuke Fukudome with more Ks.
If Grossman could be a similar player to Fukudome when he was in his prime, we’d have a pretty good player. You only know Fukudome in his 30s when he has faded year by year. He was a better player, regardless of the difference in level/style of play, when he played in Japan.
パトリック
uh huh
To reiterate, I don’t think Chambers is a good prospect. I understand that his passivity and contact problems are likely to keep him from being a major leaguer.
Of course, quite obviously, I’m saying that I think Grossman’s upside is that of the version of Fukudome who’s performed unspectacularly in the majors for the last four years (except with more Ks).

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