Civil Discourse
by RichieHebner on Aug 2, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
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I posted a version of this in response to a comment about the outfielders. After finishing it, I decided that despite the fact that periodically we have discussion about how we interact here, another was probably warranted. Why now? Because hopes were up, are now back down, and could go right back up if they run the table the next six games. After eighteen years in the wilderness, that is to be expected. The product has been some lively discussion and the inevitable trolling, but also some rather disturbing tantrums against players and their advocates by frustrated posters who understandably are tired of our 3.83 run a game offense and alarmed by the fact that the pitchers' arms may all fall off one night.
To be blunt, as Dave Parker famously said back in 1978, opinions are like rear ends: everybody has one. Discussions go sideways, however, when unreasonable prejudices make it impossible to evaluate players objectively. Overbay underproduced, so he is human garbage. We found out Jones wasn't going to be a regular, which most of us knew, but because someone tried to ride his runaway 2009 horse for two years because we had nothing else, he should now be blamed for that and dismissed as completely useless. Ronny Cedeno was a slug and now people want to keep him next year. Let's not even start with Doumit, or going back a few years to the unfair and rather mean stuff people dispensed about Craig Wilson.
The only saving grace is that the Fan Posts and comments usually don't read like the game threads, which have become depressing. The Pirates could do a service by having an event (charity, low contribution, whatever) where posters could meet the players and talk to them. I would bet anything that the tone here would change overnight if enough people came. Frankly, knowing that several of the players look in here and read some of the stuff that is written makes me wince in embarrassment. Yeah, they make a lot of money. Most are only lucky enough to do so for only a few short years, and then are forgotten and have to make it in the real world, just like everybody else. I have no problem with objective critiques of players' abilities based on their actual performance. However, I have no interest in your mind's eye view of a player, which sees all of his strikeouts and bad paths to scorching line drives, and misses his walks, singles and doubles. I have even less interest in that view when it is presented with the kind of vitriol that in more than a few cases is less harsh than what I've seen thrown at the Norwegian mass killer. Seriously, folks. This is baseball, and while it may seem like life and death, it really isn't.
Although I haven't had a chance to make it to any of the gatherings, I have noticed that the discussions between those who have gone are so much more informative and pleasant than those between anonymous posters. While we know each others by our handles, we know little to nothing about each other, or about the players we critique daily. Human interaction is impossible at the level many of us once knew it, for better or worse. That doesn't mean that we have to jettison the good that came of that different time and place. Try and remember that the person who you are posting about is a human being with hopes and dreams. The same is true for the person with whom you are debating. The community of those who forget that still represents a minority. After three some years here and six in the overall baseball blogosphere, I fear that minority is growing a bit too much and too fast for my taste.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Bravo
It’s one thing to be upset about how a player performs but I always remember.
( a ) Almost all the time, these guys are giving 100% effort
( b ) Their performance on the field, whether good or bad, doesn’t make them good or bad people
( c ) These guys are way, way better at baseball than any of us ever will be. Even a “bad” MLB player is in the top .000001% (that’s about 700 people if my math is right) of the world’s population about playing baseball. Calling them a “failure” is basically asburd.
At the end of the day, I’m simply thankful I live in a time and place that allows me to freely watch baseball (or pursue other interests) and enjoy it. I try and keep the enjoyment by not getting too caught up in it. I especially try not to be hateful or spiteful towards other people, on here and the players, because of something I should be enjoying.
About ( a ) and ( b ), clearly when a player doesn’t give any effort and stops trying, his character comes into question. That situation is different, but it’s still better to be careful when applying blame. I’d rather reserve my own judgment and internalize it, be ready to give them a second and third chance if possible, and remember that I have my own faults and vices.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
both the op and cutchistruth are dead on
I also am quiet surprised at the lack of civil discourse. but most have been trolls, some have had bad days and are just in a bad mood. take brakeman08 for instance. the first post i saw of his where he was telling an individual in no uncertain terms to stop complaining about his fanshot/fanpost, i wanted to rip his head off, literally. but after seeing some other posts it seems that dude was having a really bad day or something along those lines. The baseball documentary “Baseball” is spot on when it in several instance’s links the times of the day to baseball. The 1900-1930’s organized crime ruled the day and there was corruption widespread through baseball, bringing the two separate leagues at the time to its knees. In the 70’s-90’s drug use was of epidemic proportions in society and it transferred over to baseball, as the government turned a blind eye to it until very late in the 80’s and early 90’s, so did baseball. Even after that it literally took an act of congress to get MLB to do something about it. In this day, there is very little civil discussion going on between ANYBODY of opposing view points, particularly in politics, and its possible said tone and tenor is transferring over to here.
Now you look at recent events within the pirates org, specifically overbay,diaz, xp, and pedro. By all accounts overbay had just an awful season. Does that make him a bum, a dirtbag, or a failure? No of course not, it makes him a ball player who had the worst season of his career when we all just wanted an average season. The same applies to Diaz, the guy is having a down year, but really what did we expect from him? a guy who could hit left handers with a bit of pop, which he has done to some extent. Windows is clearly a guy who needs more time in the minors, he fielding is questionable, but he has good speed. he makes a decent pinch runner at this point in his career. most certainly not an abject failure as some like to say…..at length.
Then there is Pedro. For a guy who has yet to play a full season in the bigs to get the treatment he does here and on local talk radio (listen to 97.3 the fan via the net) its as if he is puljos and having back to back bad years. Does he need seasoning? Yes of course he does. Will he get that in AAA, no he wont. There is no one in the organization that has received that treatment he has except overbay. We have a chance to win with Pedro at third, we have a much smaller chance to win with Brandon Wood, Harrison, or Chase. That’s not an indictment of their skills, that is a testament to Pedro’s. Sit back and watch this young man grow, its ok to be frustrated with what is perceived as a lack of progress, but realize he cant learn big league pitchers in the minors.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 2, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it's that bad here
This place is more civil and substansive than most of the baseball blogs out there. People do get carried away now and then, especially on gamethreads, but what can you do, it’s the internet.
not a lot you can do
it’s normal for fans to get angry when the team plays substandard ball. in 162 games its a given thats going to happen at some point or another. some times i just giggle at some of the comments. especially when we fall behind and zach buccos loses his mind..
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 2, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It isn't that bad here
but it was better a year or two ago, and I expect more given the level of intelliegence here. If I expected the run of the mill blog or the internet in general, I wouldn’t be here.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Well, that's mostly because there's more interest in the team this year
And greater expectations as well. But even a year or two ago, things weren’t all that civil – there have always been players like Andy LaRoche and Brandon Moss who were ferociously hated around here even though their only crimes were not being all that good at baseball. I think you may be overstating how pleasant this place used to be.
i also think
the “ferocious hate” is not directed at the person, but at the bad play or the bad outing. If players do read this place, it would be embarrassing, but gamethreads in particular are heat-of-the-moment places— not that I dont agree however that there has been more angst recently, and a lot of it has to do with a sudden upsurge in users based on the Pirates’ performance.
Well, it does cross the line into the personal, unfortunately
Just the other day we had someone talking about punching a certain player in the face….
yeah
i agree, and RH’s post is spot on too. I acknowledged that people have gone over the top. Simply suggesting that part of it is people who are new to following the Bucs, now that they are relevant, and haven’t dealt with the downs (or dealt with it in a similar manner to Steelers’ games).
Not excusing them, and I’d be in favor of handing out warnings to guys who are going over the top.
There were moments
And I can’t really put my finger on it, but it’s different. The Nutting trolls were vaguely amusing (anyone notice they’ve pretty much gone?) and although the LaRoche and Moss folks could get pretty rough, the language is more violent now, and defending one of these guys who is getting you ripped often gets you ripped right back. Usually, it took a few exchanges to get to “you’re a @&$)!?/ idiot.”. It doesn’t take nearly that long anymore.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Rudeness is not new to the blogosphere
I don’t think the issue is really one about the blogosphere, although I think perhaps that MB posters are less likely to think that players are actually aware of what they are saying about them.
For some perspective on the matter, consider the behavior of fans at minor league games. I hear the most outrageous heckling of, basically, teenagers. The other day I read a celebration of WV’s “toast man” on these boards. Toast man, in addition to tossing out toast, is pretty quick to remind struggling 19-year-olds that they suck, are overpaid, were dumped by their previous team because they are terrible, and/or haven’t gotten a hit in however many at-bats. Even Phillies fans started booing a young pitcher in the middle of their blowout of the Pirates the other night because he gave up a few meaningless runs.
is this really true?
Toast man, in addition to tossing out toast, is pretty quick to remind struggling 19-year-olds that they suck, are overpaid, were dumped by their previous team because they are terrible, and/or haven’t gotten a hit in however many at-bats.
Not that I’ve seen. Most of his taunts seem to be based around puns and such. Pretty harmless. Although it’s possible I’ve missed something.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 2, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The day I saw him
It was all, Hey Billy Bob (sitting on the other side of the section)! Did you know this guy got a million dollar signing bonus? Did you know he’s 0 for his last 16?
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 2, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It was heckling of the other team’s players, not the Power. I don’t think he heckles the Power’s players. But what’s the difference?
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 2, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
I can only laugh that you are upset about the toastman.
FWIW I’ve read many articles in the local paper about other players who’ve found his antics hilarious and quite likeable.
Tim Beckham is one in particular because he shared that with me personally when I talked to him before the SAL All-Star game back when he was with the Rays Low-A team (Bowling Green I believe).
The Toastman has been a staple at the ballpark for over 20 years and is nothing but fun and laughter, and the kids love him. He is the epitome of what baseball, especially minor league baseball. You should get your facts straight bro.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 2, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He did the things I said he did the day I was there. It wasn’t fun or funny (lots of his schtick was fun and funny, but not this). It was just straight out heckling of 19- to 21-year-olds who were struggling. That probably is what minor league baseball is about, in the same way that one could say that burning coaches and throwing quarters is what college sports is about.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 2, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
man. Way to get personal. Call out me, my hometown, my state, and my school. Go ahead buddy.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Calm down
Half the people on here are from WV. What makes you think I’m not?
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't care where YOU
are you from, you made it personal for ME.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 9:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That
was a bad thing to say on my part. For that I apologize.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Please
flag this everyone. This post is infuriating, insulting, and offensive.
Most passive-aggressive bullshit I’ve ever seen. I don’t know why the “toastman” was even drug into this, but it was irrelevant and an attempt to ignite an argument. Classic trolling and I’m tired of you doing it throughout the board.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t get this reaction. The premise of this Fan Post is that fully-grown, major league players like Lyle Overbay, who is making tons of money this season on top of a lucrative career, have feelings and might read this and we should be civil because of that. There was a side point about how the internet is bringing down public discourse.
I respond that the internet is not bringing down public discourse, that sports fandom has always had a rude underbelly, and point out that the celebrated Toast Man heckles teenagers who are chasing the dream Overbay is living.
You can’t seriously feel worse about the prospect of Lyle Overbay reading things written here and feeling bad than about the fact that minor leaguers across the country are routinely mocked for their past failings in a setting in which they can’t avoid hearing it.
If you approve of this Fan Post, then you should disapprove of hecklers like Toast Man. The only other possibility is that you can somehow identify with the Lyle Overbays more easily than the struggling teenagers trying to turn things around.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions
The
difference is the motive. The toast man is heckling during a baseball game. He’s the nicest guy you’ll ever meet and truly cares about the players, Power or opposition. The players know that too, as I alluded to as well above.
Heck the toast man single handedly “built”, power park. He’s the biggest supporter of the Power and minor league baseball in Charleston
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 9:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Posted early.
Had more to say. When I went to the game monday I actually talked an opposing player. He had pitched the night before and was in the stands manning a radar gun. He asked me if the guy with the toaster was at every game. I said “basically” and he said he thought it was funny and pretty cool.
That’s vastly different than someone genuinely feeling and directing hate and rage at Lyle Overbay or Matt Diaz because “they suck” on a baseball field.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 9:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I can believe that Toast Man is a nice man
I just think he ought to think about whether it is civil to hammer an opposing pitcher (who was, I think, all of 21, and making scratch for the privilege of being heckled) with his prior season’s failings or insinuate that he was traded because his prior team had no use for him. Toast might put himself in the opposing pitcher’s father’s shoes, just as we have been asked to put ourselves in Lyle Overbay’s shoes.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair
enough. I’m being too defensive and irrational I’m sure. For that I apologize.
You do raise valid points and I let my emotions get ahead of me. Again, my fault.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn't learning to handle
the psychological side of the game part of what the minor leagues are for? If you can’t handle mild heckling in A ball you’d better find another line of work, because it’s only going to get worse. I promise you, there are 21-year-olds in the NHL, NBA and NFL who hear far far worse and seem to be able to deal with it. Are baseball players so much more delicate?
Overall, though, I get your point. It’s not like (most of) these guys aren’t trying their hardest. But some of them need to get weeded out, and the sooner, the better, and if a little taunting helps do that …
That was not the point of the post
That was secondary the the general observation about our communications with each other. I also have no issue with criticism of players, just with the language and manner.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
reading what Charlie and MITT had to say about it
sure sounds like you’re misrepresenting the case. Also, heckling has been part of games forever, and I’m OK with it, unless its offensively personal.
Right, it's heckling
It’s taunting opposing players for being in slumps and pointing out their faults and so on. What is this thread about?
My point is that saying mean things about players who are underperforming in a way that they might hear it is not some novel internet invention.
As for misrepresenting, I described exactly (almost verbatim) what I heard him do. Whether you think that is “civil” in the context of a minor league baseball game is up to you.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 2, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i think its fine
anyone who has played or watched any competitive sport, not even professional, knows players get heckled. As an athlete, you expect it.
This is different from going up to the guy while he is eating in a restaurant or something and saying, hey, dude, you suck.
I admit you said exactly what you claimed it was. But because of the context, it sounds like player A goes to Toastman and says “Can I get a toast?”
Toastman: Yeah, $5 out of your $1M bonus, you sucky-cant-hit-for-shit-bozo.
Maybe it was my mistake interpreting it like that. I dont have a major problem with heckling unless it takes on a racial or discriminatory nature.
So then: Why is heckling struggling teenagers who have neither fame nor fortune in a venue in which they can’t avoid it okay?
Why is that less offensive than saying mean things about Lyle Overbay as a baseball player? (I take it nothing has been said about his personal life, even if his play has been treated as a reflecting on his character, and it definitely isn’t racial in character.)
I know guys who make tons of money and live a life we would love to live still have feelings and all. I get that. But the fame and fortune still matter. A lot. I mean, I would subject myself to an internet beating for my professional performance in exchange for $5 million / year.
Or: Why is it worse when it’s on the internet? Players at minor league parks can hear everything yelled at them.
I’m trying to advance the discussion by taking the stated, apparently non-controversial premise of the Fan Post and challenging us to see if we really agree with it or want to live it. What if it’s fun or funny to make people feel bad about themselves because they are underperforming? Does that make it okay?
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It was when I saw Hickory play
He kept reminding the pitcher (who did very well that day) that he had an 11 run ERA with Boston’s SAL team and had been dumped by them. There was a player on the Crawdads who, I guess (I don’t follow other team’s minor leagues), got a million dollar bonus and was in a slump, and he was all over him. That guy smacked a double.
I mean, Toast Man is fun and funny, and it gives the fans something to keep them actually in the game instead of just socializing and drinking, but I find all the heckling (not just Toast Man, now, but throughout the minors) of kids chasing the American dream to be a bit offputting. Maybe that’s why I kind of like Bryce Harper. We all love the minors and Bull Durham and all that, but these are places that make most of their money selling beer.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 2, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
"Even Phillies fans"
I’m not sure what to make of this – if there’s anyone you’d expect to boo, it’s Phillies fans. They booed Mike Schmidt when he was picking his kid up at school, fer chrissakes.
Well, he whiffed on a good parking space . . . .
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 2, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Loved the great line from Ball Four
When the game is rained out, Philly fans go to the airport and boo bad landings. A few years ago, my wife and I went to a Phillies-Braves game at Citizens. Turned out to ge legends night. They had Schmidt, Carlton, Luzinski and a cast of thousands. They also honored their retiring PA announcer. He gets up to thank the crowd and says he loves everything about Philly and the fans, but wished they wouldn’t boo so much. They booed him off the field. Most of it was in jest. Some of it was pretty sick, though. Hell of a town.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
No kidding....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmR82553eR8
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
It certainly isn't.
For one, the 19th century ballplayer Charlie Pabor, who got hung with the nickname “The Old Woman in the Red Cap,” agrees.
Agreed with all.
Rec.
As to “not a lot you can do”, I don’t know, seems like RichieHebner did something. And I reccommended it along with some others, it may be very little but every bit helps.
yeah but
some people are just ahole’s. you cant change them.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 2, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Rudeness is a feature of the human condition
I recall sitting on the firstbase line at Forbes Field. Don Clendenon played firstbase. For the whole game he and those of us nearby had to listen to racial taunts directed at a man who was a superb baseball player. I wish we had him on hand today.
I can think of no sensible reason to smear a baseball player for playing baseball and for the way he plays baseball. Just because rudeness is a part of the human condition does not make it inevitable or condonable.
Besides, heaping abuse on a player can undermine his performance. ARam quickly improved after relocating to Chicago. Who among us Pirates fans would reverse that trade if they could?
s.zielinski
So you're saying
that a man who has been deceased for nearly six years is still better than Lyle Overbay? :)
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
I remember it
and it is so funny you mentioned it, because Clendenon came to mind the other day as I was reading things people said about Overbay. What people did to Clendenon was brutal. I’m not denying that fans can be nasty in real life, and that we saw this almost fifty years ago, but hell, civility should be immutable and I’m not giving into what is a variation of the moral equivalence argument. Just because some asses called Donn Clendenon awful stuff from the stands in 1967 doesn’t make similar behavior delivered into the ether to an unseen being about another unseen being any better. Both unseen beings are human. From a purely utilitarian view, we ought to care because if this sort of thing becomes the norm, I promise you it will drive away the most thoughtful. Not because their feelings are hurt, but because they have tired of wading through rubbish and repeating the same argument again and again to the deaf. The baiters are the worst. They key on the thing that gets on your nerves, and engage you in a self-defeating back and forth, until you realize you’ve wasted an hour of your precious life engaged in the proverbial battle of wits with the man armed only with a twisted resilience and appetite for pointless ping-pong.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Civil discourse
and anonymity are mutually exclusive. While certainly different in degree, a mob draws its energy by a similar dynamic to what we find on the web. And that mob only gains life as individual identities fade into a blur. When there is no face, there is no face to protect.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
I can’t agree with you that anonymity and civil discourse are mutually exclusive. Or perhaps I’m missing something.
Perhaps "mutually exclusive" is a bit strong...
Nonetheless, civil discourse is tenuous at best whenever anonymity becomes part of the social dynamic. Civil discourse requires authentic community — something that can’t be realized without face-to-face interaction among actors who see their interests linked at some level. Anonymity is one factor that severs those links. Since there is no longer any sense of personal investment, the norming mechanisms become woefully inadequate. It really is similar to a mob mentality since individuals essentially “hide” in a mob much as they “hide” behind screen names and avatars online.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Holy
freakin crap. I love reading stuff like this.. cause I’m like “woah, big words” but then “and they actually make sense, edifying the eloquence of the delivery, rather than the eloquence being in spite of the discourse; furthermore, a poignant point is made specficially relevant to the conversation.”
Plus, it’s all about sociology, etc., which is fascinating.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I do think it’s a little silly to worry about what the players think of what is written here though. First of all, I can’t imagine they read what’s on the internet (I certainly hope they don’t). Second of all, Overbay just got DFA’d…if he doesn’t know that he sucked this year, he’s got bigger problems that anything written about him here.
If you want civil discourse because you find that yelling/bashing annoying, then I’m fine with commenting about it. If you want it because you’re embarrassed that players might read it….I think you’re wasting your time.
Not a matter of silliness
By the way, you are wrong. I can identify by name at least ten past and present Pirates who check in here as well as at several other blogs several times a week and in a couple of cases even more often. I got to know folks with the club pretty well via Fantasy Camp activities, and that experience helped inform what I am saying here.
And I’m not worried about it, nor is it my main point. However, If you can’t say it to his face, then maybe think about how gutsy it is to say it here. While I don’t always succeed, I try to post things I’d be comfortable saying to a guy in an arbitration hearing. What is so wrong with thinking about how what you write will be perceived by the most discerning critic? Not always necessary with a quick comment, but even those can be nasty and warrant some thought. In any case, I still have to learn how to edit properly on my mobile posts. I keep catching typos. I’d like that to be my worst offense on here.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Noted
I’m surprised that present Pirates give a rip about what’s said about them online, but I take your point. I’m actually pretty confident that I’ve never personally posted the kind of stuff that you’re trying to get rid of, for the record. I clearly have a more significant emotional response to sports than I should, but it generally manifests in thrown remote controls and punched couches, not posts on the internet.
“I’m surprised that present Pirates give a rip about what’s said about them online…”
I’m not. These are young guys with laptops, iPhones, iPads and the like, and several hours a day of free time.
I know when I was acting in L.A. (beforeI moved to Chicago), I read my press clippings – why would it be different now?
I would expect it to be moreso, not less.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 2, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Beforel!
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
spacebar fail.
But I appreciate your civility..
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 3, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t exactly peculiar to the internet. Sports fans have ALWAYS tended to attribute moral, as well as physical, failure to players who disappoint them. One phenomenon that’s always interested me is the tendency to refer to disappointing starting pitchers as “gutless,” or something along those lines. I’ve seen that applied countless times to guys like Kris Benson, Kip Wells, Zach Duke and Charlie Morton. Conversely, sports fans, and especially broadcasters and reporters, love to attribute on-field success to moral superiority.
I’m not disputing RH’s point, which is clearly correct. It definitely makes a difference, for instance, when people on the internet tubes have actually met the people they’re typing at.
And I don’t pretend to be better than anybody else about this. I just wish I was.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
It’s true that people have a tendency to speak in moral terms whe they criticize a player’s performance. Does that matter?
I think what’s worse is when we look hard to find some aspect of the game that we feel we can rightly and righteously attribute to moral character, like chastising a player for not running out a pop-up, not being a good teammate, being a hot-dog, or whatever.
We desperately want sports and sports fandom to include lessons in morality and civility. But it’s entertainment.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re talking about somebody not running out a ball, that’s a different matter because that IS a moral failure, in a very small way.
I’m talking about situations where poor performance is attributed to a guy being gutless, or not caring, or lazy, or a cancer, or any of the thousands of personal insults fans throw at players without having a clue what sort of person the player really is. That’s arrogant, unjustified, and just plain stupid.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 3, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
We're talking past each other
I’m saying that it’s worse to go hunting for actual moral lessons in sports (even very small ones, which sometimes end up being treated as not so small) or to think you saw inside the soul of a ballplayer (however tiny the insight) because he didn’t run out a pop up. The player may very well be a good person in spite of one or even repeated failings of this kind. In fact, I bet there’s zero correlation between on-field hustling and off-field morality or character. (Call it the Charlie Hustle question.) Complete dedication in one facet of life may not imply complete dedication in another; it could just as easily be correlated with neglect of other areas. (My guess is zero correlation one way or the other.) Sports are entertainment and diversion, so without some such correlation, there is no (even slight) moral significance to running out or not running out a pop up. It just means the guy is a marginally less valuable player.
Putting forth full effort in a game has to do with being a good player (the more effort you put in, the better player you are likely to be) but neither of them — putting forth full effort in a game or being a good player — give much insight into the goodness of the person.
by RafaelBelliup on Aug 3, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds good to me.
I always found the worship for Pete Rose nauseating, and that was long before the gambling stuff. Because he ran to first after a walk, he was a paragon of virtue.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 3, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
The year he beat Clemente for the batting title
Rose bunted for a hit on his last PA of the season. The bunt base hit won the title for Rose.
At that point I not only hated Pete Rose, but I knew his tough guy act was just that, an act. Rose was the kind of player who, when playing basketball, would hoist a shot every time he touched the ball. Notoriety before honor.
s.zielinski
Solid point...
I think that there is a tendency to conflate different uses of a term like “good.” On one hand we use it to denote the quality of an object or the performance of a skill (e.g., a good pizza). On the other hand we use the term to discuss moral/ethical value — good as the sacred poll of a sacred/profane dialectic. In the process the human mind, somewhere beneath the immediate level of consciousness, smuggles in other senses of the word “good” through the backdoor. So, while we are discussing the quality of a performance, there is a tendency to also make a value judgment. By the way, I had a very virtuous pizza last night.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Wilbur is right
It isn’t peculiar to the internet. However, for most of us, this has become the means by which we interact most commonly about sports. Since it is our bar, our town hall, our ballpark, to some degree, I wanted to take a crack at guilting a few folks into thinking. Some of the responses are leading me to believe this was probably an exercise in futility.
You actually are much better at it than most, for what it is worth.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
I think this site has been pretty fair with its overall treatment of players since I found it at the end of '06.
Most of the people that have regularly contributed for the past several years have done so because they admire Charlie’s writing and the wealth of knowledge a number of others demonstrate here on a daily basis.
Some of us, including myself, probably should try to engage in more civil discourse at times, but しょうがない, IMHO.
I doubt very seriously that any Pirates’ players who check in here are going to be hurt by anything posted about them. They should have thicker skin. In fact, they might learn something useful.
パトリック
Up until recently, I would have agreed with everything you said
I don’t anymore, though. Some if it has gotten over the top.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Yes, it has.
I do remember having fun during game threads even during losses over the last two losing seasons.
Not so much now.
More’s the pity. Not a helluva lot to do about it, but try to keep an even keel, and hope others follow.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 2, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll look at them more closely. I’ve been away from them for a while, partly because I write all day and need a break, and partly because my laptop emits warmth and the TV isn’t in the room with the fan in it.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 2, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
They've gotten terrible.
I’ve considered several times not taking part in them anymore. It’s amazing, every single player on the team sucks, is lazy, a cancer, etc. It’s amazing with a roster full of crap that the Pirates have managed to be so competitive…that is if you believe what you read in the game threads.
#AllTheBuntsAreBad!
I'm there less recently because of it.
Sadly, it just kinda doesn’t feel like “home” a lot of the time.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems like the vitriol has increased with the traffic load.
Sure we all get frustrated when things don’t go well, but some of it has gotten out of hand. If everyone would keep in mind where this team was last year, and where they are now, they shouldn’t be getting stressed like we’ve seen. Enjoy the ride, however long it lasts, and have fun. Some people here have forgotten to enjoy things. (Tails, you definitely aren’t on the list of forgetting to enjoy things :))
Negative comments are fine when appropriate, but Charlie and others shouldn’t need to police the place.
Oh, so true.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 3, 2011 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, the game threads are less fun. I mostly keep away from them now, maybe stop in for a little bit. Too easily offended and all, I am.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 3, 2011 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure if it's taking offense,
or just tired of the nearly incessant negativity and name-calling. And by name-calling I mean at first the players, then the other posters.
It doesn’t stop, and those who continue to do it say, “Well, I am just frustrated,” or “I’m taking the loss badly.”
Yeah, great – but I don’t want to have to continually fucking read about it.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 3, 2011 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
That said
It got nasty at times during the Craig Wilson wars.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
I guess I wasn't at this site then.
Wilson always elicited incredibly extreme reactions, though. Even more so than Pearce does now.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 2, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey RH
how do you feel about a kick-start, perhaps? maybe engendering some more genuine community here my cutting down some anonymity…specifically switching your SBN picture to an actual picture of yourself (and i mean the collective “you”, not just you personally). i’ll start.
I'll find something presentable
and swap out the paranoid cat. He does crack me up, though.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Freakin
Reginald.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 3, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Good post
And as expected based on those who commented, most agree with what was said. However, the troll patrol have not posted their feelings. I’ll not mention anyone by name, but we have a small number of “fans” who post nothing but negative stuff about our team and it gets old, fast. Sure, the teams is in a slump and no we didn’t trade for a Hunter Pence or a Mike Adams or whoever…but we did improve our club and our club house. This is a young team and this is a team that no one expected to sniff .500 ball this year and now everyone is upset we are falling out of playoff contention. Now this guy sucks, that guy F’n sucks etc. Did they suddenly forget the last 18 years? This team is great compared to those years. Weather by fluke or luck or improvement, Jeff Karstens is having a great year. Jose Veras was pick up off the scrap heap and has held the opposition to a .200 batting average. Chris Resop has stepped up to be a solid bullpen arm. Paul Maholm is having a career year. Charlie Morton is showing signs of becoming a decent #3 or #4 guy. McCutchen is an All Star and no relation has been a great surprise in the pen. Alex Presley was starting to shed his non prospect status before getting hurt. Mike McKenry may be the unsung hero of the team. Brandon Wood has played well since the break and has a very solid line vs LHP. Ronny Cedeno has stepped it up and is doing a nice job at SS. And how about the Hammer? Those are just a few of the positive stories this year…not to mention the fact we have done all this without Ohlendorff, Meek, Doumit, Tabata, Snyder etc. How can you NOT find good things about this team? That’s not to say there have not been downsides…Pedro perhaps being the most glaring example of that, but all in all it’s been very good. Is it smoke and mirrors? Maybe, but this is a young team and weather it’s true talent, luck or simply smoke and mirrors these guys are gaining confidence that they can win and I think things will only get better from here.
And GFJ went GI Jones again tonight
This has been fun, really. I’m just trying to temper my hopes, because even if we get runs, the arms are regressing uncomfortavly back to the land of 2010. We’d have killed for six runs most any day last week, and they meant nothing tonight.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
another rouhg outing by kc...but
maybe this gets him in gear. i just dont see how a multi homer game doesnt do that
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 3, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
This FanPost sucks...
…as do all of you, your relatives and anyone you’ve ever met, seen or thought about, as well as all of the people who’ve ever posted on this site, commented on this site, viewed this site, heard about this site or used any of the letters involved in spelling out the name of this site at any point during their lives.
/sarcasm?
Yep.
Like those who will view this site in the future, and those who have never seen it at all, and never will.
Overall, pretty thorough, though.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 3, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking about anyone who uses a different alphabet and the illeterate non Pirate fans in the world, what’s that? about 326 people?
Must… Not… Make joke…. About… irony of…Misspelling… “Illiterate.” While… Making… Fun. Of illiteracy…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
well….you suck!!!
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Aug 4, 2011 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions
For some historical perspective
When John Jay negotiated the treaty bearing his name during the earliest days of the republic, the people were not happy. The mildest and most printable of it went something like this: “Damn John Jay. Damn all of John Jay’s kin. Damn all who know or have ever heard the foul name of John Jay.”. Now, insert your favorite Brewer.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
"favorite Brewer."
Mutually exclusive words.
(Unless you’re talking about Vook, or summat. Current ones? I dunna think so. [Also, I know what you originally meant there.])
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Favorite Brewers
Anchor Steam and Blue Moon
by Bishop1973 on Aug 4, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for Anchor.
Have you had this year’s Summer Ale?
Dee-lish.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Not yet on the Summer Ale.
I’m on a diet and exercise program right now, so my alcohol intake has been reduced greatly.
However, I am on vacation in two weeks, and I am giving myself a pass for 7 days to enjoy what I’m missing over the other 51 weeks.
Can I just say.....
After that series against the Cubs, how can you possibly expect us to be “civil”? Well, actually now that I think about it, we are being pretty civil. Nobody has died yet.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
Don't look at me
I was cursing at Hurdle in the 8th.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
You DO know
I was kidding about GFJ in the gamethread last night, right?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 5, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, though
There are times he looks like he can hit anything thrown by anybody 800 feet, and there are other times he looks like he never held a bat before. I have seen very few players whose ups and downs are so dramatically disparate. I’m sure it drives him nuts as well. I really believe most of it is in his head.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
There are times he looks like he can hit anything thrown by anybody 800 feet, and there are other times he looks like he never held a bat before.
Unfortunately, the former are measured in days and the latter in weeks.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 5, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Wehner once said that Jones really focuses on his hitting
I took that to mean that Jones thinks too much about hitting or, better, thinks at the wrong time — when he’s hitting.
s.zielinski
I heard him
also heard it from one of the staff. He takes lots of BP, looks at a lot of film, spends a lot of time with Hurdle and Ritchie and analyzes every dimension of his swing. Every damned day, from what I understand. He is better off doing that occasionally, and then putting it away, so that when he steps in he is sublimating all of that to instinct, and ripping the living hell out of the first good pitch he sees. Like the past week. He has been doing so well that he is ripping two strike pitches for doubles, singles and near home runs, while still taking walks. If I didn’t think it would break the spell, I’d move him down in the order for a little while. We could have used him in front of or behind Ludwick last night. Then we would have only lost 15-12.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
Not unlike my golf swing...
After a few months’ layoff (forced by Winter in Chicago), I usually have a great (for me) round my first couple times out, because I have forgotten all of the “swing mechanic triggers” I’ve learned, and just whack the snot out of ball.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 6, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
only you didn’t forget them. They were stored in your subconscious memory, ready to come out unbidden to assist your conscious mind as it impelled your hands right through the ball sending it on its merry way to kingdom come.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
The trick is to...
…train your muscles, tendons, nerves, etc. to execute an action while you experience the action as if it were natural. Muscle memory is not a mental remembering of what you have done in the past. It’s your body instantly and properly responding to cues present in your environment.
s.zielinski
I should have been a little clearer.
Over the layoff I’ve forgotten all of the myriad swing triggers and “tips” that jostle around my mind, pushing and shoving for position in the front of my consciousness, and messing with me…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 7, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Stop that! Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Dammit! Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 7, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you repeat yourself when under stress?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 7, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not obsessive-compulsive. I am not obsessive-compulsive. I am not obsessive-compulsive.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 7, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
And you are not King Crimson fan.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Aug 7, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
Oh, yes. Yes, I am.
I’ve never been referred to as “schizoid” before, though.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 8, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, that is so
It is weird, and I’ve seldom seen anything so pronounced.
"Throw strikes, but don't give him anything good to hit."
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