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Pirate pitching prospects and Ks

We all know the Pirates want their pitching prospects to develop fastball command, and that emphasis could lead to reduced strikeout numbers. I would think, however, that other organizations have the same philosophy, so there wouldn't be a wide disparity in strikeout statistics. But it's interesting how the Pirates farm teams all rank at or near the bottom in league strikeouts.

Indy: 11th of 14

Altoona: 12th of 12 (76Ks behind 11th place)

Bradenton 12th of 12 (15 Ks behind 11th place)

West Virginia 11th of 14

State College 14th of 14 (60 Ks behind 13th)

GCL Pirates 13th of 15.

The major league staff also fails to fan many batters. I wonder what's going on? Do you the Pirates simply emphasize fastball command more than the other 29 teams? And if the other teams don't emphasize it as much, are the Pirates overemphasizing it? We'll probably have to wait 5 years before making any judgments, but I find it an interesting question.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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Nice data.

It makes me wonder whether one of our sabermetrics people has found something about BABIP.

Another thing is that it takes more pitches to strike a guy out than it does to let him put the ball in play. Also, breaking balls are harder on arms than fastballs. Perhaps some of this pitch to contact stuff in the minors with fastballs is an attempt to prevent arm injuries in the minors.

by houksyndrome on Aug 21, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

to be fair

we dont have many pitchers that make people miss except at WV. Which, by no coincidence, is pretty much the only team on that list to not be last. Taillon helps that. And guys like Kingham and Allie help SC. But Bradenton on up, not many pitch and miss guys. McPherson, Locke, Wilson are the only guys that truly come to mind that can K people on a consistent basis.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 21, 2011 2:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

Most of our pitching prospects with potential swing and miss stuff are at the lower levels, where command of the fastball is the priority. For that reason, I thing west Virginia on down will always rank low on k lists,nespecially if nh sticks to his draft philosophy of taking prep pitchers. As some of those guys move up, I think our higher levels will work their way back to league averages.

by goodtymes31 on Aug 21, 2011 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Pirate Pitching Prospects

A directive from Connelly and Huntington was handed down to the managers and pitching coaches of all minor league teams. They were specifically instructed to tell every pitcher to concentrate solely throwing their fastball for strikes. Obviously velocity is down on every pitcher in the Pirates system. Consequently, strikeouts are down across-the-board on the top Pirates pitching prospects.

by SirGeorge on Aug 22, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, this and houksyndrome's comment together make an interesting point

i wonder if the inability to use off speed earlier has an effect on the level of refinement of those pitches by the time they reach the major leagues…

by BurgherKing on Aug 21, 2011 5:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm far too lazy to run the numbers

but our pitchers seem to be really bad at bunting and hitting every year compared to other teams. Should we be drafting pitchers who have some kind of promise as hitters?

by senatorblutarsky on Aug 21, 2011 5:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Like Lincoln and Van Benschoten?

I know, I know, I cherry pick.

Thank you Ned Colletti.

by ryebr3ad on Aug 21, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stetson Allie can hit a little.

Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker

Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.

I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever

by wg1of5 on Aug 22, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gah, Vlad already got this downthread. Well, whatever.

Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker

Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.

I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever

by wg1of5 on Aug 22, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d rather them draft pitchers who have promise of being good pitchers but I also think that having pitchers who can handle the stick is a valuable piece in the national league. I don’t know why pitchers aren’t learning how to hit every chance they have when they aren’t pitching. If you had a staff of pitchers who could all somewhat hit, I think that would be valuable to a team like the Bucs, for sure instead of having a mannequin batting 9th everyday and having that dead spot in your order.

by SteelCity G on Aug 21, 2011 6:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Phils vs Bucs

Lee .218 Worley 1.88 Hamels .145 Oswalt .125 Halliday .103
Maholm .109 Correia .087 Mac .087 Karstens .100 Morton .048

Slightly higher payroll though.

by senatorblutarsky on Aug 21, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW, Allie was very well-regarded as a hitting prospect. Big-time power.

by Vlad on Aug 21, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fastballs and out pitches

Some pitchers have such great stats before being drafted due to their breaking ball out pitch. As they are forced to develop their fastball command, they learn not to rely on that breaking ball so much. So many pitchers with great breaking balls find that they cannot throw them for strikes in the bigs. Management will probably deal with each pitcher individually as they show they can have a major league fastball. Allowing Morton to go back to his out pitch seemed to make all his other pitches that much better. I dunno what to say about Lincoln’s curve. It’s a tough way to make a living!

by Larry Harrell on Aug 21, 2011 6:52 PM EDT reply actions  

On the flip side, West Virginia and Bradenton both lead the league in fewest walks against and Altoona is 2nd.

by et_pitt on Aug 21, 2011 7:31 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s what you’d expect, if they’re working on fastball command.

by Vlad on Aug 21, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting Data Indeed

I have a bias toward results. I find the data disturbing, especially in view of the fact that Huntington and company have expressed a strong preference for big, projectable pitchers who can throw heat….. what everyone used to call power pitchers. With that in mind, I would NOT expect to see the whole system so weak at striking people out.

Finding reasons for such weak strikeout performance MIGHT be no more than rationalization and making excuses for….. weak pitching. I don’t mean that as a criticism for any posts in this thread. In fact, I thank bolton for calling this to our attention. He raised a good question. I am concerned.

by magnumo on Aug 21, 2011 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m more curious than concerned at this stage. Even if I were not a Pirates fan, I’d be interested to see how these young pitchers develop. I don’t want to sound like Neal H., but I find “the process” of transforming a high school pitcher into a major leaguer to be kind of fascinating. And if the Pirates are doing something different than the other 29 teams, I applaud them for it. Given the attrition rate for young hurlers, teams should be looking at new patterns for development.

by bolton on Aug 21, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do they rank on a K:BB level out of curiosity?

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Aug 21, 2011 8:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Indy: 13th / 14
Altoona: 7th / 12
Bradenton: 3rd / 12
WV: 2nd / 14
SC: 13th / 14
GCL: 14th / 15

by et_pitt on Aug 21, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

by any chance, do they have GB% there as well?

by BurgherKing on Aug 21, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

I think this paints a somewhat different picture.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Aug 22, 2011 9:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The higher level pitchers

were not brought through the system with this approach, right? Hard to cite them as examples of this philosophy’s failure. The A-, A+ are nice.

by Wizard of Woz on Aug 22, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Bradenton and WV are both last in their respective leagues in walks given up. (I’m too lazy to run the BB/9 data for all those teams.) But hey, maybe we’re onto something with working on fastball command so much.

Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker

Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.

I love lots of guys. - leaflover4ever

by wg1of5 on Aug 22, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great

I think Taillon’s a pretty interesting illustration of how our system works. Usually pitchers of his pedigree put up gaudy numbers like 14 K/9 in the low minors, but his walks are outstanding, considering his age.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Aug 22, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they're not striking people out

and aren’t walking anyone, this must mean that they’re putting the ball in play and relying on the defense and that would get better as they move up to the majors (if they can keep the ball in the yard)

by BlindSquirrel on Aug 21, 2011 8:52 PM EDT reply actions  

while its a nice post

its not a post that is indicative of what we want to see out of our “top” prospects. Using a team ranking to classify the pitchers as a whole, is in itself fine but really doesn’t tell you much to either a) be concerned or b) not be concerned.

What I’m trying to say is that if for instance, at AA, Locke has good K numbers, but 3 other “non” prospects aren’t doing much of anything in terms of Ks than this “team ranking system” is flawed, because quite frankly, when it comes down to it, does it really matter much what the organizational depth is doing compared to one of our more highly ranked guys? Some will argue yes it does matter, but in the grand scheme of things, no it does not. So, I’m not really alarmed nor concerned at this point.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 22, 2011 1:59 AM EDT reply actions  

2nd paragraph should read "…..Locke has good K numbers, but IF 3 other “non” prospects…."

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 22, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't we have the youngest pitchers in each league?

It’s probably as simple as that, if true.

Our GCL team is made up of 18-20 year olds and there was a stretch earlier in the year where the Nats ran out 3 straight non-rehab SP who were all like 23 and 24. I’m sure Nate Baker could dominate the GCL right now if we wanted him to, or put Bryan Morris back at Bradenton and he could K a bunch of dudes for you. This study isn’t in depth enough to mean much other than to show it needs to be looked at with more depth.

by Mr. E on Aug 22, 2011 6:29 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks for pointing that out

I got these numbers from baseball-reference…
GCL Pirates avg pitcher age is 19.4 vs league avg pitcher age of 20.5, they are the youngest staff in their league. State College avg pitcher age is 20.4 vs league avg pitcher age of 21.5, they are the youngest staff in their league. West Virginia avg pitcher age is 20.9 vs league avg pitcher age of 21.9, they are also the youngest staff in their league. Bradenton is older the their league avg, having an avg pitcher age of 23.5 vs 22.9. Altoona avg pitcher age is 24.4 vs league avg pitcher age of 24.6, and Indianapolis avg pitcher age is 26.1 vs league avg pitcher age of 26.7; making our AA and AAA teams right about the norm.

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Aug 22, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

good stuff dude.

Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott

by C Shint on Aug 23, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

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