Clueless GM(whats new?)
by eihcir on Aug 31, 2011 1:53 PM EDT
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From the PG today
From the PG today
The Pirates might have a difficult time signing star center fielder Andrew McCutchen to a long-term deal.
General manager Neal Huntington said Sunday that reaching such an agreement would require "compromise."
"There will be situations in the past, present and future where we are not able to find the common ground," Huntington said when asked about McCutchen's future with the Pirates.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11234/1169007-63-0.stm?cmpid=pirates.xml#ixzz1Wd7FJspy
This is the mindset with the FO. A player like this will need to be paid what his performance and the market dictates, not some Pirate FO budget or hometown discount. You either pay the going rate or trade away the player if you feel it will be too costly.
This kind of thinking is the reason the Pirates suck...its baseball on the cheap!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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You have no idea what McCutchen is demanding, and you’re going off on the front office about things you have no idea about. Pot/kettle.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 31, 2011 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And you’re someone who has been banned before. Bye bye!
by Charlie Wilmoth on Aug 31, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Huzzah!
Now, how about people who make multiple (at least 4 and counting) accounts?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 31, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, Charlie
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Aug 31, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Censorship!
You’re acting like this is a privately run blog where you can control the level of stupidity by banning people who don’t add anything to the conversation. Fascist!
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 1, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
or Cuba
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
CM PUNK IS MY HERO
Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
Or the Commie-Nazis!
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A player like this will need to be paid what his performance and the market dictates, not some Pirate FO budget or hometown discount.
Who says that’s not happening? Is it at all possible that McCutchen is wanting more than what the market is currently dictating.
I will admit I’m disappointed that the FO didn’t try and sign him last offseason to a Upton or Longoria type deal (before he had established himself as a superstar). Maybe they did, and Cutch wouldn’t agree then, but we haven’t heard about it.
Still, I can’t fault them for trying to lock him up now, but refusing to overpay for Cutch’s services. Pittsburgh is a tiny market. Realize that fact and you’ll be fine.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 31, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions
Is it at all possible that McCutchen is wanting more than what the market is currently dictating.
There is no effective market for McCutchen’s baseball skills right now. He’s contractually obligated to sign with the Pirates for a few more years. McCutchen will get what the Pirates offer or what an arbitrator dictates. His only choice is to sign or retire.
s.zielinski
No
His choice is to take what the Pirates offer through next year, what an arbitrator dictates through 2015, and then whatever the market will bear in free agency; or to sign a long-term contract that gives him income certainty for some agreed-upon duration, likely at a higher pay rate than he would get through 2015, but lower than he would get in FA.
If you want to be pedantic, then “what the market is currently dictating” could be replaced with “what comparable players in comparable positions have gotten”.
No, his choice is not "sign or retire"
The choice Cutch has is to sign a long-term contract or to not sign a long-term contract. Should he choose to not sign a long-term contract, the result is that he plays for the Pirates on the terms that they dictate next year, and the terms that an arbitrator decides for the following three years – not that he retires.
Yes, his choice is constrained, in that he can not sign with another team now. And yes, that means that there is no free market for Cutch’s baseball playing right now. But his decision (sign or not) is guided by the expectation that there will be a free market for him after the 2015 season, and the value he would want to get from any contract extension is influenced by the amount he thinks he would otherwise get through the term of the contract – including, if the contract extends to 2016 or beyond, what he would be able to get on the free agent market.
Until he's a free agent
McCutchen must sign any contract the Pirates offers to him or an arbitrator awards him. His only other choice is retirement. Sign or retire. This is a true statement.
s.zielinski
No, it isn't
He must sign a contract with the Pirates to play with them for the 2012-2015 seasons. That is not the same as “any contract” – if they offer him a six-year, $40M contract, he isn’t obligated to sign it, and he isn’t obligated to retire if he doesn’t sign it.
Are you getting your info from MLB The Show?
by psudynasty1017 on Sep 4, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Extension for McCutchen
2012 is his first year for arbitration. Arbitration increases by about 75% each year. That figure could be more or less if the Pirates win or lose in an arbitration hearing. He will get $5 million for 2012. Around $7.5 million four 2013 and $10 million for 2014. If you have been a lifelong fan, the Pirates gave Jason Bay a four-year contract for $32 million. They bought out his three arbitration years and his first year as a free agent. McCutchen saw how much the Milwaukee Brewers extended Ryan Braun. It may take as high as $10 million a year.
I understand people are suspicious of the front office. But it takes two to tango. Players are human beings and they have their own agendas. I’d love to have Cutch stay here for his whole career, but that may not be what he wants and, if that’s the case, there’s really nothing NH can do about it.
This whole thing is making me flash back to the early 1990’s (and many, many years thereafter) with all the knashing of teeth over the failure to resign Bonds, Bonilla and Drabek.
You can't compare the two
Bonds and Bonilla believe it or not wanted to stay in Pittsburgh and their agents proposed long term deals to the Bucs but Pittsburgh Associates didn’t want to dole out long term deals and instead took their chances in arbitration, which in turn created more bad blood.
Here you have the FO wanting to dole out a long term deal with Cutch but he’s saying no.
by Bradley James McEachern on Aug 31, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
See, you STILL have people willing to blame the front office for Bonds. Because Bonds totally wanted to play in Pittsburgh where he was openly despised instead of going to his home town to play for his father. Let’s face it, if you can’t trust the word of Barry Bonds, who can you trust? That man is a gigantic, steaming pile of trustworthiness there.
Bonds contends that the Pirates never offered him a contract and I’ve never seen anyone from the club dispute that.
speaking of
Bonds and Bonilla, does anyone else recall the Pirates offering Bonilla a 4 year 16M contract in 1991? Bonilla turned it down, and when word of that reached the clubhouse Bonds was quoted in the Pittsburgh Press that he would sign that contract immediately if it was offered to him. It seemed like a win win for the Pirates, keep Bonds for a few more years, or if he subsequently turns it down, you’ve proven to the fan base how much of a jerk he really was, alas nothing came of it, but my friends and I were really frustrated at what we saw as a missed opportunity for the Pirates.
I remember that
But I also remember Bonds frustration with the FO about not giving him a long term deal and the Bucs getting rid of John Smiley and Bill Landrum that by 1992 he said that he would never sign a long term deal with the club and that whoever he signs with he will come back and “kill the club”.
Of course he signed with the Giants, a team the Bucs play two series a year. Hardly a kill.
by Bradley James McEachern on Aug 31, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Leyland claims that the Pirates did not offer Bonds a contract
Why would Leyland lie about that?
s.zielinski
from what I understand...
Leyland had enough clout that IF we never offered Bonds a long-term contract…Leyland’s hands very well could have been involved in that decision.
by insane_sanity on Sep 1, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Lyland criticized the Pirates for not offering Bonds a contract
Some people consider Leyland a baseball genius. But if Leyland ran Bonds off his team, he’d immediately become eligible for the being named the “Dumbest SOB in the History of Sports.”
s.zielinski
Jim Leyland's best skill
has always promoting Jim Leyland.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
I don't think he did.
Mark Sauer was a cheapskate who refused to let the team spend money on the draft and major league payroll. He is as much to blame as McClatchy for the 19 losing seasons.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 1, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
With only Leyland speaking out about it…I’d still be interested in hearing other sides of the story.
While McClatchy DID keep the team in Pittsburgh…I wish another owner would have acquired the Pirates and kept them here, and McClatchy would have stuck to newspapers.
by insane_sanity on Sep 2, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
If the Pirates offered McCutchen a 6-year, $600M contract, I’m sure he’d be willing to forego one year of free agency.
They aren’t; ergo, the front office is too cheap.
See how easy it is?
An agreement will require compromise...Neal says.
How much compromising is HE willing to do? Or are the Pirates going to set an arbitrary value on Cutch and not budge from it? It would not be the first time this FO has taken that approach.
Nor
is it the wrong approach..
Honestly, I love Cutch (just read my name), but if at the trade deadline in 2014, we still seem to be a year or two away, and Cutch can fetch us say a major league ready pitcher who should be a #2 and a major league ready 1B who projects to be a 3.5-4.5 WAR player for the next 6 years. (A reasonable haul for 1.5 years of Cutch to a contending team) and Marte, Tabata, and Grossman are all ready to take over the outfield as a unit, would that be the end of the world?
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 31, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Pirates are still “a year or two away” in 2014, they’ll have a new GM, a new manager, and be playing their games in front of 10,000 people a night.
Well
Aphthakid, that’s what’s going to happen. 2014 is the earliest we can realistically expect to contend.
I hate to be completely abrupt and negative, but the first half (3/5?) of this year was a complete facade. Jeff Karstens was in the top 5 in ERA in the NL and lead for a time for goodness sake. The rotation was marginally better, but is still worst or second worst in the division (thank you Astros) and the lineup is probably in the same position (the Astros and the Cubs are both pretty bad).
Talking about the 2012 and 2013 season, you can expect the following players to have any impact at all at the major league level that had minimal impact this year.
Pedro Alvarez
Starling Marte
Tony Sanchez
Chase D’Arnaud
Alex Presley
Brad Lincoln
Rudy Owens
Justin Wilson
Bryan Morris
Jeff Locke
Kyle McPherson
That’s a decent amount of talent and I expect the Pirates to improve incrementally, and we might play our way into a playoff bid next or year or in 2013, but 2014 is the very earliest I can see the possibility of people looking at the Pirates on paper going into the season and tabbing them as a legitimate contender to win the NL Central. That will also be most likely Cole and Taillon’s rookie years, so it might take a year or two for the team to really take off.
Don’t get me wrong, there is hope, but I prefer a long term approach/view, rather than worrying about a window in the next few years.
Think about it; if at the end of 2013, we just won 84 games, finished 9 games out of first place, and we have a very good farm system, with both solid depth and star power. Cole and Taillon are expected to break camp with the big league team the following spring.
The Cubs are in the unenviable position of deciding whether or not to resign Matt Garza. The Brewers resigned Grenkie to a long term deal, but were forced to watch Marcum walk away a year prior after seeing Prince walk in the offseason before 2012. The Cardinals still have Pujols, but he’s coming off the worst season of his life, only hitting 26 HR’s. Matt Holliday is only a shell of his former self. Adamn Wainwright has declined and is now only a solid #2 pitcher. The Astros still suck, and the Reds still haven’t found a true top-flight arm to plug into their rotation.
That’s what I’m hoping for, because Jose Reyes and Prince Fielder aren’t coming over the horizon anytime soon.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 31, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just saying
Huntington’s rope is not infinitely long. It’s quite unrealistic to think he and Hurdle will still be here if the streak reaches 22 seasons, including 7 under Huntington and 4 under Hurdle.
Well
if you are right, I’ve given up all hope on the Pirates and Nutting is a terrible owner. The situation Neal Huntington was given in 2007 should and will take about a decade to turn around realistically. That’s how barren the ML team and the farm system was at that time.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 31, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I and a lot of other people...
…believed it would take 5-10 seasons for the Coonelly and Huntington to rebuild the organization. That belief included assuming that Coonelly and Huntington would be competent or really good.
McClatchy and Littlefield formed one of the worst management teams in recent baseball history. Only a corrupt owner like Frank McCourt could hope to exceed the record of a McClatchy because an owner’s corruption would eventually bleed the organization of cash and human resources.
s.zielinski
Compromise means...
both sides give up something…not just one side.
A powerless OF?
Sounds just great. McCutchen is the guy that this team needs to build around. I completely understand what you are saying but that OF doesn’t do anything for me at all if he goes.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Sep 4, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
You either pay the going rate or trade away the player if you feel it will be too costly. This kind of thinking is the reason the Pirates suck
And yet, The Twins are sucking in the first year that they ARE paying the "going rate" for their best players.
yeah, injury will cause that
when it’s basically your top 4 or 5 players that have missed significant time.
by jackiegleason on Sep 1, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
heyyyyyy, hows your cant miss Trevor Bauer been doing the past couple of weeks?
hehehehe
sorry, had to be done.
by white angus on Sep 1, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He has posted a 7.56 ERA since getting called up to AA
Gerrit Cole in that same time span? 0.00 ERA. Just sayin’
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
Bauer's last game:
1.2 IP, 10 ER…
and i thought he was superman or something.
bwahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I guess the question becomes
how much is he worth in comparison to the other outfielders playing currently and does he match up with some of the top outfielders. Do you compare him with outfielders? or do you compare him with best players in the MLB?
The other issue I’m guessing is that if Alvarez comes up next year and really starts to Rake..would you rather pay big money to McCutchen or to Alvarez if you could keep one?
How many Large Long-term contracts can the Bucs actually maintain without going into debt? I mean the long term contracts can be an albatross if you’re wrong about a player’s talent (i.e. Jason Kendall(back in the day 10 yr/100M i think?), a few other MLB Team Contracts that I can’t recall right now)
Well, Kendall was probably the best catcher the Pirates have ever had, and very good for the bucs
Even in 2003 and 2004, his last two years with the bucs, he was a CATCHER that batted .325/.399/.416 and .319/.399/.390. That was enough for a 4.7 WAR in 2003 and a 5.0 WAR in 2004, which we then promptly traded. Looking back on it, trading a catcher, even if he is 30, coming off 2 seasons like the past 2 he had looks pretty bad. Thankfully, (in retrospect from a sellers remorse perspective) he completely fell off a cliff after he left Pittsburgh for Oakland, dropping to a 2.2 WAR in his first year in Oakland, and with a bat that never recovered to the point of his Pittsburgh days, (though he did have a 3.2 WAR year in his second year in Oakland).
He spent 4 years of his six year $60 million contract with the bucs. He accumulated 13.3 WAR in that time. If it weren’t for us paying the Athletics to take him off our hands, (assuming we kept him and he performed the same in Pittsburgh as Oakland, which probably is unfair to HIM because PNC is probably better for Kendall than Oakland), he would have accumulated 18.7 WAR for $60 million dollars. That’s 2001-2006 dollars, but it still seems to me that his contract wasn’t exactly an albatross contract for the production he gave. In fact, he probably gave SURPLUS value to his contract. No one ever seems to mention how good Kendall really was.
Kendell signed that contract when he could run and hit for power
The contract was never the mistake many believed it to be because Kendall was once a special player.
s.zielinski
That's true
However, the Kendall contract became an anchor for the club as a result of his injury problems….. and clearly demonstrates the risk a small market team takes when giving out large contracts.
We all know that there’s been a lot of salary inflation since the Kendall contract. So, in today’s terms, it’s not such a big deal for a large market team to give a player a multi-year contract of $10 million or $15 million or $20 million per year….. but it IS a big deal for a franchise like the Pirates. Such a contract would put the Pirates one injury away from financial disaster.
Guaranteed contracts are another of the fundamental financial problems of MLB. Such contracts greatly magnify risk for a small market team.
It’s hard for most people (including me) to put themselves in the position of having so much money to work with (even small-market team money)….. but if I put myself in the position of a small market front office and ask myself, would I take the risk of giving a huge market-value contract to (or “overpaying”) one player, even a player like McCutchen?….. the answer comes out “no.”
I know this position will be highly unpopular with many fans, but I’d trade McCutchen for a package of high-potential prospects rather than “overpay” him. A similar scenario has taken place over and over again with small market teams and their best home-grown players….. and it will continue to happen. Based on what I’m hearing, I expect the same thing to happen with McCutchen.
A franchise like the Pirates cannot compete with the big boys on the free agent market for a talent like Andrew McCutchen. Period.
I know this position will be highly unpopular with many fans, but I’d trade McCutchen for a package of high-potential prospects rather than "overpay" him
i totally agree… and your last sentence is 100% dead on.
When did he ever hit for power?
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Sep 4, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
'98-'00
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
then because he had an absurd pain tolerance
he played the entire 2000 or 2001 season with a broken thumb and the power went away soon afterwards
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
CM PUNK IS MY HERO
Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 5, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
If I was Cutch, I would expect to be overpaid
to make up for the difference in endorsement money that athletes get playing for a large market team vs. one of the smallest market teams. Plus, the Pirates need to take into account that they have noone else to market as the face of the franchise to sell tickets, etc. The FO has no leverage at all to expect Cutch to compromise, so they are either delusional or deliberately tanking the negotiations.
by Central*Scrutinizer on Aug 31, 2011 7:25 PM EDT reply actions
so they are either delusional or deliberately tanking the negotiations.
There are no other possible scenarios.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 31, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
There are no other possible scenarios.
Well, at least not here:
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
you're from the planet
where everyone forgets and repeats history… oh wait, that’s Planet Pirate
by Central*Scrutinizer on Aug 31, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
As opposed to simply making it all up. You’re making assumptions, based on absolutely nothing, about both parties’ positions. No worries about forgetting history there. You can just make up some more as you go along.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 1, 2011 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Well yes they are also trying to get "fans" to drum up this type of nonsense as rational thought
Honestly, I love Cutch (just read my name), but if at the trade deadline in 2014, we still seem to be a year or two away, and Cutch can fetch us say a major league ready pitcher who should be a #2 and a major league ready 1B who projects to be a 3.5-4.5 WAR player for the next 6 years. (A reasonable haul for 1.5 years of Cutch to a contending team) and Marte, Tabata, and Grossman are all ready to take over the outfield as a unit, would that be the end of the world?
Oh yeah, 15 years watching Cutch get MVPs and World Series rings would be lovely (see Ba. Bonds).
by Central*Scrutinizer on Aug 31, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Bonds never really got that ring...
Not the main point you were going for I know, but still, figured I’d let you know that when you use (see Ba. Bonds) and talk about getting world series rings it makes me realize how even one of the greatest stretches by a player in history, (possibly THE greatest stretch) can’t single handedly win a world series
I really
don’t mean this in a mean way, but go root for the Yankees or the Red Sox. The Pirates are never going to have the money or resources to overpay for talent. Heck they don’t even have the money to pay the market value for superstars most likely.
That’s just fact. It sucks, but Cutch might have to walk, and it won’t be the front office’s fault. If they pay him big bucks, it severely cripples the Pirates ability to put other players around him. I’d rather see him walk, get some talent for him, and continue to exploit the “we pay you next to nothing for 3 years, then a bit more for 3 more” rule that gives us any chance.
Again, I will reiterate. Andrew McCutchen is one of my biggest role models. He plays a style I love – fast and exciting, he was our top prospect when I really got into baseball, and just looks plain awesome – love the dreads etc. Plus he’s a huge Christian, which is a giant positive in my eyes. Still, if money gets in the way, I’ll move on. I want the Pirates to win more than keep my favorite player and lose, and that could potentially happen. Personally, I’m going to trust the Front Office to make the right decision here, and I also honestly believe we will see a extension. If you choose not to, I can’t fault you for that, but I don’t understand the sarcasm and failure to accept reality.
The Pirates are a small, small, tiny, market team.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn't they just overpay in the last 2 drafts?
For players we may never see or not see for 4-5 years or may be barely replacement level. Will even one of those players drafted make the MLB squad, let alone the all-star game? You just assume they will. You already have it set in your mind that nothing will go wrong and your fantasy team will appear. You’re the one that needs a dose of reality. And you need to change your user name… you are showing no respect at all. You are not just debating the extension, you are actually pushing the idea of exploiting Cutch and then trading him.
Can you see why your role model might wonder why Cole and Bell just got their millions for doing nothing, but now the FO is crying over the violins, “oh, we are just a poor small market team.” Exploitation, indeed!
The old saying is a “bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush”. Cutch is the bird in the hand and Marte/Grossman are the birds in the bush. Think about that as you project your 2014 lineup.
Many of us have heard the small market excuse and seen the FO doom this team over and over again, and are sick of it. Trust the FO, ha ha! That is very funny.
by Central*Scrutinizer on Sep 1, 2011 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions
The old saying is a "bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush". Cutch is the bird in the hand and Marte/Grossman are the birds in the bush. Think about that as you project your 2014 lineup.
Ya, you’d rather have the bird in the hand, but not if the bird hand wants your car keys, your social security number, your birthday, and your mother’s maiden name while the two in the bush just want some bird seed. Even if the bird currently in your hand can talk, and can do a trick or two, I say take the chance and let it go before it ruins you financially and hope your two other birds pan out.
Now if the first bird only wants to borrow your bike and bum 20$ off of you for a pizza then that’s a different story.
For players we may never see or not see for 4-5 years or may be barely replacement level. Will even one of those players drafted make the MLB squad, let alone the all-star game? You just assume they will. You already have it set in your mind that nothing will go wrong and your fantasy team will appear.
If you consider just one player, then you are right, they are more likely to never see a MLB squad then see one, even Cole or Taillon, but that’s why you get Cole.. and Taillon… and Heredia.. and Allie.. and Holmes… and Kingham.. etc. etc.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Referring to McCutchen as a “bird in hand” is pretty revealing. It’s just the basic, ignorant attitude you get from fans who believe it’s entirely up to the team whether to extend a guy. We have no clue what McCutchen is asking for and we have no clue what the team is offering. We don’t even know whether McCutchen is willing to give up a FA year. If he’s not, an extension is a complete waste of time.
This makes as much sense as wondering whether it’s going to rain on July 4, 2037, and then blaming the weatherman for not being able to guarantee us it won’t. This whole subject is idiotic.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 1, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The rebuild process is sound
the execution has been shaky, the progress of most prospects has been shaky, the final outcome from drafting and signing “projection types” instead of top “right here and now” producers is yet to be determined though the results thus far are underwhelming at best.
A low 70 win season is an upgrade over last year but most of the increase was firing Russell and playing more sound baseball, no dumb shifts ect.
Cutch getting traded might be the right move with Marte on the doorstep but I can see NO reason to believe huntington would get anything truly top prospect, his track record is that of getting guys who have failed for a couple years and he hopes they will turn it around, my guess is he receives the same again.
by jackiegleason on Sep 1, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
This
I can actually agree with mainly. Some reason, actual arguments supporting your position etc.. My responses.
the final outcome from drafting and signing "projection types" instead of top "right here and now" producers is yet to be determined though the results thus far are underwhelming at best.
It’s hard to draft and sign many “right here and now” producers. They go in the top rounds. If you mean more college guys, look at Alex Dickerson; he’s the type of pick you seem to desire, although he’s really the only one.
producers is yet to be determined though the results thus far are underwhelming at best.
At the risk of sounding rude and crass, you should have stopped where my bolding ends. The results aren’t anywhere near conclusive.
Cutch getting traded might be the right move with Marte on the doorstep but I can see NO reason to believe huntington would get anything truly top prospect, his track record is that of getting guys who have failed for a couple years and he hopes they will turn it around, my guess is he receives the same again.
Huntington has never even come close to having a chip like McCutchen to trade. He could command basically anything he wanted if he offered him to a team like, for example, the Rangers. Yes, admittedly Huntington missed on Bay, but he hit big time when he traded Nady and has other successes (Dotel and Nyjer Morgan trades).
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
and since McCutchen is affordable right now, the return on his trade could be enormous
then again, it could flame out.
if Marte continues to improve, and Cutch is not signed, trading Cutch for some stellar talent might be a fantastic idea.
That would be a valid idea...
if it could be shown that NH can find stellar talent in a trade. To this point, I haven’t seen any indications that he’s capable of doing that. We haven’t picked up any stellar talent in trades in 4 years. Unless you want to stretch things and say Hanrahan is stellar.
if it could be shown that NH can find stellar talent in a trade
To quote MTT above: “Huntington has never even come close to having a chip like McCutchen to trade.” Yes NH could choke, but we have no history that would compare to a Cutch trade.
Plus
Hanrahan is definitely a stellar talent, as is Tabata. If you are talking about an absolute stud, then you’re simply out of your mind thunder. Teams don’t trade superstar prospects anymore.
Kyle Drabek was the centerpiece of Roy Halladay trade.
For Roy Oswalt, the Astros got J.A. Happ and Brett Wallace.
For Dan Haren, the Diamondbacks got Tyler Skaggs.
Heck, Cliff Lee only netted the Mariners Justin Smoak, and he’s not a “stellar” talent at the moment, at least the way you’d define it.
Gone are the days of Carlos Santana for Casey Blake. The difference is, if McCutchen was traded say next trade deadline, he’d probably by the most valuable trade chip of the last decade. The last time a player commanded a similar haul to what McCutchen could command would probably Mark Teixeira when he was traded to the Braves.
The Braves later traded him to the Angels for Casey Kotchman…..
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 2, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, we have not had a talent like Cutch on the trading block... in decades.
1. Bay was our top player, no doubt, but he was already expensive and going to be very VERY expensive. Cutch, on the other hand, very affordable and might not be “Bay rich” for some time.
2. in terms of overall talent and performance, the pirates have had NO ONE in Cutch’s league for 2 decades. now this statement also means that this person has actually put up good numbers in MLB.
Cutch would definately get plenty of attention on the trade market, and because he is young and cheap (for now) he would demand top talent in return. the affordability and years of control would make other teams spend heavily for him.
Well, nobody in 2 decades in Cutch's league is a little stretch
You might remember a guy named Brian Giles? OPS of 1.018 with the Bucs with an OPS+ (meaning adjusted for league average, so adjusted for era) that was higher than Joe Dimaggio and Hank Aaron’s career lines. Giles with the Bucs was a force of nature on offense, and saying Cutch is in a different league than that, despite Cutch’s defense, is a disservice to Giles.
Who?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 3, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
you know
the guy that beat up his pregnant girlfriend
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
CM PUNK IS MY HERO
Canal Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Sep 5, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
giles was not "affordable"...
that was a huge part of my point. cutch is way more valuable because hes, quite frankly, cheap.
Yeah, I get that, it's just you had as point #2
“2. in terms of overall talent and performance, the pirates have had NO ONE in Cutch’s league for 2 decades.”
I was just saying that saying Giles was no where in Cutch’s league is a disservice.
to whom?
tell you what, when Cutch gets all roided up and smacks the shit out of women on VIDEO, then they can be in the same league.
sorry, that was snarky of me, but I barely even consider Giles a former human much less a former Bucco
Tabata?
Morton has some good talent as well – it’s the execution that he’s having trouble with.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 4, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Negotiations are about compromise by definition
Are you suggesting they should just agree to whatever terms Cutch and his agent lay out?
The red flag to me that this is predestined to go south is:
“There will be situations in the past, present and future where we are not able to find the common ground,” Huntington said when asked about McCutchen’s future with the Pirates.
First of all, what does “there will be situations in the past” mean? Besides that, if you are already predicting you won’t find common ground, isn’t that inflaming the situation? That’s what pisses me off; there was no reason to say this publicly. Also, I agree with eihcir, “a player like this will need to be paid what his performance and the market dictates”. If Cutch and his agent have done a market study (including endorsement opportunities) for say, an offer NYY would make to a similar player, and it’s validated by a 3rd party, then yeah, the Bucs should just agree to it. There’s no reason for Cutch to go the Tabata route and accept a reduction in his max value for fear of injury or whatever.
by Central*Scrutinizer on Sep 1, 2011 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
You do
understand… say 15 million dollars a year to the Pirates isn’t even remotely the same as 15 million dollars to he Yankees (team you mentioned). 15 million dollars would be roughly 1/4th to 1/6th our major league budget in an expensive year. It’s closer to 1/15th for the Yankees.
Just because the market value Cutch could earn in New York is number X does not mean it would be a good idea for the Pirates to pay him X.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
No, the GM is clueless. Relative value and worth vs. the local market is beyond his scope of knowledge.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
I stopped reading after your first sentence.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Sep 4, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
There were only two.
Did you run short on time?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 4, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You do know he was being sarcastic, right?
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
By all means, lets continue spending $15 million a year
to acquire the draft prospects you fantasize about all year, instead of a core superstar player. Their relative value to the MLB club is ?
by Central*Scrutinizer on Sep 1, 2011 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions
We just got done spending 17 million dollars on the draft
That’s close enough to 15 million dollars. So let’s say we compare the 15 million a year we pay Cutch to 15 million spent on the draft every year in that same time period. Let’s say it’s 5 years..
If you honestly don’t think that 15 million a year on the draft will produce more talent and more surplus value over the course of 5 years compared to what you get from Cutch, as damn good as he is, then I really want to play poker against you.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If
you take a gander at this fangraphs page..
it may dawn on you that we aren’t going to the damn playoffs with one player over 2.8 WAR (Cutch at 5.5), ONLY TWO over 2.1 (Cutch and Walker at 2.8) and only nine players at/over 1.0 WAR. They are Cutch, Walker, Cedeno, Tabata, Jones, Maholm, Morton, Hanrahan, and Karstens. You start 5 pitchers and 8 players, and 4 of ours have been replacement level all year. For comparison, using 1, 3 and 5 WAR for thresholds and using the Brewers and Cardinals (our main NL Central competition all year)
Cardinals
5.0+…………………. 1
3.0 – 4.9……………. 5
1.0 – 2.9 ……………. 8
Brewers
5.0+…………………. 1
3.0 – 4.9…………….. 6
1.0 – 2.9…………….. 5
And again the Pirates
5.0+……………………1
3.0 – 4.9………………0
1.0 – 2.9……………….8
I’m much more worried/interested in getting some complimentary players than what we do with McCutchen. They will be the key to winning, not spending 15 million on McCutchen. I love the guy to death, but it takes two to tango, and I’d prefer not to tango with him if it requires my car keys. I’ll give up my wallet, but I need to be reasonable here; same with the Pirates.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Sep 1, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This lack of production is why I wanted Rendon
Putting aside his injury, about which we know little, Rendon ought to produce more than McCutchen. He’s a better hitter overall, and he promises to be an elite fielder at 3rd. As I said before the draft, for the Pirates, he’s the right player at the right time — but for his damaged shoulder.
s.zielinski
When has a team ever won the Stanley Cup
on the back of a single superstar? The NHL is likely the least conducive place for that to happen.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
by SubLime on Sep 2, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if it weren't for the infamous foot in the crease goal in game 6 of the finals
we could be talking about Dominik Hasek leading the Sabres to the Cup on his back…
Ah, I forgot about the "goalkeeper problem."
The 86 Habs did have a young Chris Chelios, but it could be reasonably argued that Patrick Roy carried that group to the Cup.
But as far as skaters, even those as great as Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Beliveau, Howe, etc. …
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
You're absolutely right about Patrick Roy.
GO HABS GO!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 3, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Hockey?
Poor reference.
Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.
by Black&GoldTrain on Sep 4, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh no! The draft that takes four years to produce results hasn’t produced results after three years! Why are we spending money on it!?
With that same thought, why am I investing in my 401k? I could use that money now, who cares if it isn’t matched or taxed?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Stripers and weed.
Good investments.
That 401K crap is just a money sinkhole. I mean, I have a Roth IRA and it’s like the money just sits there when I could spend more on fun stuff.
So onto my love rocket, climb, Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love.
A lot more.
If I had to choose between giving Cutch a 6yr/$90 million deal or having every single prospect we’ve drafted over the last 6 years (including, you know, Andrew McCutchen), I’d take the prospects.
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
situations in the past
“First of all, what does ‘there will be situations in the past’ mean?”
If you’re complaining about the tense shift, fine. But what he means is that there are players that he was unable to sign to a contract extension because they did not find common ground. Like Jack WIlson and Freddy Sanchez. And that he’d like to extend McCutchen, but it’s not guaranteed, because they might not agree on a contract. Why should that be remotely controversial.
Also, Joe’s Garage is not Zappa’s best work. He should’ve cut down on the potty jokes and played more guitar. So there.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Sep 2, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
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