First Round Washouts
by NastyNate82 on Sep 11, 2011 6:08 PM EDT
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Looking at some of the statistics around the league today, I was surprised to see that so little attention had been paid to the year Alex Gordon is having. People are touting Adrian Gonzalez as an MVP candidate (and rightfully so) but Gordon is right behind him in WAR (6.2 to 6.1). I know some of us here were talking about how it would be nice if the Bucs could make a play for Gordon before this year, as it seemed patience was wearing thin with him in KC.
An even better example this year (especially since Florida had given up on him) is Cameron Maybin. He's not having the year that Gordon is, but they both could be players who were late-bloomers. In Gordon's case, it appears that the big concern was his play at third and inability to hit lefties. However, this year he has hit 8 homers against southpaws, so he may have turned a corner in that regard.
Now I know NH's track record with the first-round washouts hasn't been the best (Clement, Milledge), but I still think its an avenue worth pursuing. So I guess my question is, would you like to see the Buccos go after any potential washouts of other organizations? And if so, who? Thanks.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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I mentioned this in the shortstop thread, but I’m curious about Gordon Beckham as a possible reclamation candidate. His swing’s a mess right now, though – he’d need a lot of work.
I will also admit to certain amount of curiosity about Fernando Martinez., though OF isn’t exactly a crying need for us right now.
by Vlad on Sep 11, 2011 7:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
In regards to OF
I agree with you on Martinez, he’s quite the forgotten man in NY; another name I was thinking of there was Travis Snider. If the Angels have no use for him, I’d go after Hank Conger too, as Scoscia seems to have a love affair for Mathis.
In regards to the Bucs needs, Beckham would probably be the best guy to try for though.
Like Pedro, Snider’s another guy being done in by his contact rate. That usually doesn’t end well. A shame, because he’s got some nice skills otherwise.
by Vlad on Sep 12, 2011 3:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People in KC love Alex
He’s a superb outfielder and hitting very well. For power even. No chance.
Viva Clemente!
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply above that they should try for either Gordon or Maybin
Just highlighting the fact that some first rounders take a while to bloom and that even though it hasn’t paid off for the Buccos, it still doesn’t hurt to hunt through for those guys and take a chance on someone.
Hmmm
I looked at Snider in more detail today, and he does look like a charter member (along with Pedro) of the Windmill Brigade. I wonder if the Jays might have any other guys who may have fallen thru the cracks as their loaded-too bad we have the wrong d’Arnaud brother too.
If you need a 1B or OF, the Jays probably have a few prospects you could grab
The likes of a Thames or Cooper could I guess be available this summer (non-windmill club types but other minor flaws needing work) if we could grab a great bullpen guy. Maybe one and a toolsy C+/B- young prospect type for your closer? Not really sure what you guys have in your system outside of the pitching depth.
Erk, should clarify
by C+/B- prospect type, I mean a Travis D’arnaud/Anthony Gose type (when the Jays got them), pre-breakout A-ball player with upside to the ceiling type, not trying to palm off broken goods here. Would be the likes of a Crouse/Perez/Hawkins, could maybe break into the top 100 next year but currently still too raw.
Think the Jays would be willing to let go a rough diamond type for Hanrahan to complement a young MLB piece, rate him very highly.
Stats, for reference:
*Michael Crouse
*Carlos Perez
*Chris Hawkins
(Bear in mind that Vegas is a very good hitter’s park.)
I think we’d be better off going after a guy who hasn’t used up so much of his service time.
Thames and Perez is a solid package on talent, though we might be able to do better if we shopped Hanrahan widely. I need to think about this.
Lind isn't on a service time contract
He signed a new deal last year, has 2 years left at $5million, then club option at $7mill, $7.5mill, $8mill. It’s a very friendly contract that’s probably value, even if he doesn’t refind himself. He’d probably be available but only if we pick up one of the FA 1B this offseason.
Still don’t love him, compared to Thames. He’s got a higher floor, but a lower ceiling, and the salary difference isn’t a small thing either. Even if $5M isn’t huge, it’s still $4.5M more than the minimum, y’know?
because its an obvious weekness on the pirates
i see you like Thames, but i thought we were discussing 1Bmen
by white angus on Sep 13, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily
I think the discussion came around to 1Bmen because….well, we don’t have any. But I meant to open it up to any kind of prospects other teams might have who either washed out or are blocked for some reason.
If we’re talking 1B, the guy I’d really love them to go after (and I’m not sure they would or could get him because of several reasons) is Alonso.
by NastyNate82 on Sep 13, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Thames could play 1B, if we wanted
Right now, he’s a defensively-limited corner OF. That’s a 1B in all but name.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2011 2:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He’s not Greg Luzinski awful, and he’s definitely put in some work on his defense over the last year or so, but on the whole I don’t think his outfield glove is worth crying over if we made him a 1B.
interesting.
learn something new everyday in here.
by white angus on Sep 14, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Will freely admit Cooper is an unknown to many Jays atm
He was reborn in the minors midway through last year after returning to his old college swing, and ate up AA/AAA since (PCL batting champ). He got away from that swing first taster in MLB but has looked sharper in very SSS this 2nd time up. He could be a solid average MLB 1B, he could fall away into an Overbay (mid-career) type.
Injury mostly
This year was something of a missed season.
Probably worth mentioning
that A Gone’s WAR is hurt heavily by his first basedness (yeah that’s a word, look it up)… That being said as far as additional washouts, I’d like to at least look into these firstbasemen, Matt Laporta, Anthoyn Rizzo and Chris Carter
Bees Bees Everywhere
Rizzo's not really a washout; he's still a great prospect.
LaPorta might be interesting.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
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Total Internet Points: 9001
Probably too early to go after Rizzo. He was a huge part of the AGone trade and has only had a small cup of coffee in the big leagues. I’d guess the Padres give him the entirety of next year to try to figure things out before they start thinking about moving him.
he's still up
and is hitting 130… of the 3 I mentioned… I have Carter at the top of my personal list. Another name coming to mind, although he was a second-rounder is Adam Dunn. He costs a ton of dough, but I’d take him over every single free agent we could get. Play him at first and accept the 20 or so errors. He’d find his stroke again at PNC
Bees Bees Everywhere
by VoteforPedro on Sep 12, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Which Chris Carter?
There are two of them.
by Vlad on Sep 12, 2011 3:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oakland
the one with the 75 Power tool
Bees Bees Everywhere
by VoteforPedro on Sep 12, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he's going to be available.
Oakland wants to give him a shot at their starting job – that’s why they traded Jackson to Boston.
The other Carter wouldn’t be a bad guy to have in camp as a NRI.
definitely agree on the NRI
for William Chris… Isn’t power chris hitting .130 with the big club and still in the minors?
Bees Bees Everywhere
by VoteforPedro on Sep 12, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
When Lars was in town playing the Red Wings our fans heckled him mercilessly. Calling him a big dumb Swede and things like that. I’m still not sure why he was singled out, but it made me laugh given the experience here.
by Blyleven Curve Ball on Sep 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
I’d like them to take a shot at Snider and/or Conger as well. I thought for a while Conger might be a good guy to try to get because of his situation with the Angels. Not first round picks but along the lines of the topic, Logan Morrison might be worth looking into, they don’t seem to like him for off the field stuff. And I know some people wanted them to try for Chris Davis, but another guy kinda like him, KC has 1B Clint Robinson, bats and throws lefty, I guess he can’t field to great but mashed AA last year ans AAA this year, he is 26 already but with these numbers, .326, 86r, 23hr, 100rbi, and 58bb to 88k’s, I’d like to make a play for him, he’s blocked behind Hosmer and Butler so he might be a get from them.
Forgot about Robinson
He’d be a great guy to get and I don’t think he’d cost too much. Morrison fits the bill too, and if they don’t like him for off-field stuff, thats their problem. Not sure about Conger defensively…I think he’s been atrocious throwing out runners, but thats something that isn’t necessarily clear whether its his doing or not.
Rizzo, I don’t think would be available, as I’m sure they’ll want to give him a good chance to succeed since they got him for Adrian Gonzalez.
Somewhere on the internet...
… there has to be a similar thread with Pedro Alvarez being mentioned as a target.
LaPorta seems to fit the pattern that NH has established more than any other player out there, IMO.
Tim Beckham?
He’s still young, too young for the Rays to wash their hands of him. But he’s not performed like a number one pick.
The Rays have another number one pick who played shortstop. Matt Bush, who now pitches.
s.zielinski
I think the Bucs would be more likely to get Gordo rather than Tim. Although Timbo hasn’t performed like a #1 pick, it seems that he’s made some incremental improvements; are there doubts as to whether he can play SS? Well, I shouldn’t ask that…because according to every scouting report on all the SS in the world, there are only about 5 guys in the world who could “stick” at short. He’s also just 21 at AAA.
by NastyNate82 on Sep 11, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Timmy can't field so good
Bees Bees Everywhere
by VoteforPedro on Sep 12, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
tim beckham has actually put himself back into the shortstop future in Tampa. hes improved his D there.
and since theres no one else really holding down the fort at short for the Rays, he may win the job with a good spring.
by white angus on Sep 13, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
So true
according to every scouting report on all the SS in the world, there are only about 5 guys in the world who could "stick" at short.
Drives me nuts.
OTOH, the persistence of Vizquel’s career suggests that it’s sort of true.
Well; guys like Vizquel and Ozzie excelled
Other guys stick at the position. Still, that drives me nuts as well…so, if we don’t have a good shortstop, should we just give up? Maybe pile some corpses there to prevent the ball from going into left? Someone mentioned this before…it probably is a cover your ass position they take so they’re on record as saying “hey, I had doubts about that guy.”
Personally, why do you see A gone as an MVP candidate
I mean, he’s not even the best MVP candidate on his team, (that goes to Ellsbury), you got Bautista’s superlative season, and for those who don’t care about the Cy Young/MVP thing, you got Verlander. Really, I don’t see A Gone as an MVP candidate, or at least a deserving one.
I don't seem him as an MVP candidate at all
but others do. You know, the guys who point to numbers like BA and RBI…and a lot of those people are the ones who vote, so by that measure, he’s a candidate. He’s not going to win anyway, so it really doesn’t matter.
In terms of pretty low risk guys
Anyone have any thoughts on Todd Frazier?
I guess? I mean, pretty much anybody can play 1B, to one degree or another.
I don’t know that he’s going to hit enough to be much more than a placeholder at 1B. He’d work better if he could stick at third.
I kind of see him as a Mark DeRosa type, with a little more bat and a little less glove. You could use a DeRosa at first base, but it wouldn’t necessarily be your first choice, y’know?
I don't have a problem with that...
Guys like that are useful. If they had a guy like that available this year, the Bucs would have had alternatives for when Pedro and Overbay went downhill. Or in the OF when both Presley and Tabata were out. Rather have him than Wood.
This is off-topic, but maybe not if they made Frazier available. Is anyone else puzzled by the Reds decisions concerning some of their young talent. Chapman in the pen? Not trading Hernandez? Maybe its not surprising since Dusty loves the vets. I’d be interested to see who comes out of the Grandal/Mesoraco situation.
Chapman in the pen?
This one makes at least some sense to me – he doesn’t have all that much stamina. I’m not sure he’d make it as a SP.
Not trading Hernandez?
That’s a bit odd, though as you note, most managers would rather slit their wrists than have a rookie call pitches for them, and Dusty’s even more like that than most.
Chapman...
I may be in the minority here…but I fully believe if you have a guy with two dynamite pitches like that, you put him in the rotation till he proves he can’t starter. If he never develops an off-speed pitch, or loses lots of velocity after 3 innings, then…OK, I understand it. As far as the stamina thing…well, yeah he doesn’t have any because they never really gave him a chance to work himself out in the minors as a starter. At this point in the contract (I think this is year 2 of 4) they may not be able to do anything about it, as they’ve set him back farther now.
Out of curiosity…does anyone know which one is rated higher by their organization? I’ve got my fingers crossed that Sanchez has a breakout 2012 minors campaign like Mesoraco.
by NastyNate82 on Sep 13, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
$30MM for a setup guy on a non playoff team
ouchy
by white angus on Sep 13, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, if you're going to make him a reliever
You may as well make him the closer on that team…not like they have Rivera there already.
by NastyNate82 on Sep 13, 2011 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Mesoraco’s probably higher right now, since he’s basically ML-ready, while Grandal needs another year or two.
I don’t think Tony has Mesoraco-type offensive upside in him, but stranger things have happened, and I certainly wouldn’t complain if he pulled it off.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2011 2:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It sounds like he doesn’t have Mesoraco’s type of offense either…but Mesoraco was pretty ho-hum for two years until last year when he broke out. I’m actually pretty hopeful Sanchez puts together something next year.
defensively i think sanchez is more than adequate. he'll surprise some people who havent seen him in person
offense from him will be a bonus
I've got faith in the D
In hindsight, I think maybe it was a tad foolish to rush him up to AA this year since thats considered a tough jump, and he had only been at Bradenton for a few months when he got beaned.
by NastyNate82 on Sep 14, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
And if we were looking at guys coming off injuries
I’d go for (holding breath) Joba.
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