Pirates Claim Catcher Matt Pagnozzi
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 14, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
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PrintThe Pirates have claimed former Rockies catcher Matt Pagnozzi, and have moved Steve Pearce to the 60-day disabled list to make roster space for him.
These are Pagnozzi's numbers. He doesn't really hit much and isn't young, but I'm guessing the Pirates are trying to give themselves some flexibility this offseason in case they're unable to pick up another catcher to replace Ryan Doumit or Chris Snyder (or to bring back Doumit or Snyder). That said, it doesn't look like Pagnozzi would be much of a complement to Michael McKenry, who also can't really hit. I'm not really sure why Pagnozzi would be on anyone's 40-man roster, and my initial thought was that the Pirates were going to try to sneak him through waivers themselves, but that doesn't make sense, because he would become a minor-league free agent if they did.
By the way, I don't think this is a Clint Hurdle production. Pagnozzi was in the Cardinals organization (and he's the nephew of Tom Pagnozzi, by the way) until this year. So ... yeah. I have no idea what the explanation for this move is. Not that it's a huge deal either way, but as WTM points out in the comments, the last thing the Pirates need right now is yet another player who can't hit.
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Thought about that, but Pagnozzi just joined the Rockies organization this year.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 14, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
.275/.337/.421 in the PCL?
Isn’t that, like, .200/.280/.350 in the IL?
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
And, by extension, something like .150/.200/.270 in the bigs?
This is really dumb.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
How grand, another out machine
Well, this is alarming. The offense is already awful on a biblical scale, they badly need to try to bring back Doumit, yet they’re stocking up on no-hit backups. I guess the idea is that if you add McKenry’s, JJ’s and this guy’s OPSes together next year, they might equal Doumit’s.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Does anyone know if Pagnozzi at least has a good defensive reputation?
If so, I could see us bringing him in to compete with McKenry for a backup spot next year. But neither of those two should seriously get considered for a starting job.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
Pagnozzi's defense
From the PG write-up on the move….
“The St. Louis Cardinals drafted Pagnozzi in the eighth round of the 2003 draft. Baseball America ranked him the best defensive catcher in the Cardinals’ organization prior to the 2009 season.”
I still don’t think he’s anymore that a safety net….
According to Jen L. @ 3:15 CDT:
LangoschMLB Jenifer Langosch
Pagnozzi will be joining the #Pirates in LA for the team’s next series.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
What the fuck for?
Have they decided JJ doesn’t make outs fast enough? Do they want to see if they can find a guy who can ground into triple plays?
This is a mind-numbingly stupid move. It’s like something DL would do.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 14, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, I don't make the news...
I just re-tweet it.
Maybe Doumit’s chestal injury is worse than originally thought?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 14, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Chest injury?
Is that from when he flat-out missed a ball on Sunday and took it there?
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
Not a DL move
DL would never check the waiver wire in September.
by sanny manguillen on Sep 14, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow...
Never seen you get fired up before WTM.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 14, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You must not have been around in the DL years.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
actually... barely
I “found” baseball right before Matt Morris arrived – Zach Duke’s second season.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 15, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It was lost?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
in australia
it’s considered a bit of a hit ‘n’ giggle game (as opposed to 5 days worth of grinding through cricket to end in a draw).
I hated sitting in the outfield playing cricket for most of the day when I played.
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 18, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
possibility they don't like JJ?
and they think Pagnozzi would upgrade JJ?
So now...
we have 4 catchers on the active roster…and 3 of them can’t hit to save their lives (JJ having a brief hot streak), and the other one can’t catch a cold.
I guess we are prepared at catcher if we play a 36 inning game on the west coast. How about finding someone that can actually hit a baseball and occasionally catch it?
So like...
Why?
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
Your new 8th inning man
Pitchers with 1.000 winning percentages and 0.00 ERAs do not grow on trees!
by sanny manguillen on Sep 14, 2011 4:49 PM EDT reply actions
I agree with others that this is a stupid and depressing move
I wanted to add that it is also seems like a bit of a slap in the face to guys like Matt Hague. Even if Hague is too limited to be a serious prospect, it would be nice for the organization to reward someone who has had a very nice season and done everything he can do (given his limitations) with a cup of coffee here at the end of a long season instead of sending him a “You have no future here” message.
I had thought they didn’t want to waste the roster spot, so this move sort of seals the deal for me that they really just aren’t interested in using September call-ups as reward and motivation for their minor league guys.
Playing Lee and Ludwick, in hopes that it will encourage free agents to come here. And not playing guys like Matt Hague, in hopes of discouraging anyone that has a good year at AAA. What happened to “The Plan”?
That's a valid point that I didn't even think about
Poor kid. I know I brought this up once in a similar manner and a lot of people were critical of the idea of “rewarding” players in such a manner. They said things like that they hope the Pirates never “reward” players like that. This kid isn’t a serious prospect, but as you said, he did everything he could to try to get the call-up, and the Pirates not only didn’t give him that call-up come September, they added some bum catcher off waivers over him. No, you reward Matt Hague. Give him his shot. We officially have nothing tangible to play for now that the streak will continue, there is literally no reason to not stick the kid on the roster and let him get his cup of coffee in the majors that I’m sure he’s been dreaming about. We give guys like Brian Burres, Garrett Olson, Jason Jaramillo, Pedro Ciriaco and Aaron Thompson the call up when their production relative to Hague isn’t even close, and we sign some non-prospect catcher to the 40-man to throw salt in the wound. If I’m Matt Hague, I almost don’t want to be protected by us this year. See if any team wants him in the Rule 5. If not, he comes back to us, and hopefully he can be productive once again and get the call-up.
I wanted to add that it is also seems like a bit of a slap in the face to guys like Matt Hague.
Why? Can Hague catch?
I think that is irrelevant
We already have Doumit, Fort, and Jaramillo in Pittsburgh, not to mention, if we needed to we also have Eric Fryer if we needed a catcher in these final two weeks, who probably has more upside as a catcher then this guy. Hell, at the end of the day, is Matt Pagnozzi really much of an upgrade above a guy like the great Dusty Brown? I really can’t think of a single reason for this move. We had the option to play around with Steve Pearce’s status to make room on the 40-man roster, and we chose to give it to a fairly worthless waiver wire player who plays at a position where already have two worthless players that wouldn’t be on 95% of the Major League rosters (Fort and Jaramillo.) Unless we get some sort of good reasons on why he was needed and why an extra catcher was necessary, this move is pointless and brings pretty much nothing to the table, when adding Hague is giving a guy who in a lot of peoples minds, earned his shot to prove himself the chance he worked for. I see no reason on why this couldn’t of been Matt Hague. There is nothing to lose from it and anyone on this board who would be opposed to the idea of doing it when we wouldn’t be moving anyone off the 40-man I just can’t understand their logic.
whats it going to hurt?
seriously. jaramillo, snyder and doumit are probably gone next season. why not bring in a guy and see what he can do? for pete sake, this team is losing with or without Pagnozzi right now.
and about Hague: hes IN PITTSBURGH right now. hes practicing with the team every day. this team already has 1Bmen it needs to look at, yet Hague is still getting valuable time in the majors. yes, hes not on the roster, and not in the games, but if he shows anything in the meantime, he could have a good shot with the pirates in spring training.
Oh, really...
we NEED to look at a guy with 15 years in the majors?? If that’s the case, the scouting staff needs fired…all of it.
When a guy is as old as D. Lee Is
You do need to look at him and see how he plays too make sure he can still play at a high level consistantly. This isnt 2004 with derek lee in his prime here.
age of last winning season: 5
Lee playing is irrelevant to this
I am certain that Hague would appreciate being on the roster, getting paid at a big league rate, getting to pinch hit a bit, and maybe getting one or two starts.
If we are comparing the value of having a fourth catcher who can field but not hit to a guy who would only be used as a pinch hitter, I think it’s pretty clear that the pinch hitter wins that — especially with this team.
by RafaelBelliup on Sep 14, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Upgrade over Brown?
Yeah, he is. He may be the best defensive catcher in our system. Pagnozzi is not horrible as a hitter, although not great…..but…..he is an upgrade defensively over virtually every one we have now.
Pagnozzi is not horrible as a hitter
Oh, yes he is. He’s REALLY horrible. In his first eight years in the minors his OPS never even reached .650. It only did this year because he was playing in one of the best hitting environments in all of baseball. He has one of the worst offensive track records I’ve ever seen.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
The thing is, they’re already using JJ just about every day to make pinch-outs. They need a hitter coming off the bench if they need anything at all, yet now they’ve got three no-hit catchers. So this is a double-dumb-ass move—stupid to put this guy on the 40-man and stupid for different reasons to put him on the active roster.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
You think they’re enjoying getting zero run support?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Not that I can make any sense out of this reply, but this whole myth about how the pitching staff can’t throw to Doumit or Jaramillo or anybody else has gotten pretty silly. The staff has way outperformed expectations throwing to a host of different catchers this year. You can’t just say it was all Fort. He’s only caught a third of the games and the staff was doing very well when he joined the team. Meanwhile, this team has no offense. Solving a non-existent problem by adding to the team’s single biggest problem isn’t exactly a productive course.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
and youre assuming that Pagnozzi is here long term
when he may not even be around NEXT season.
how many on here freaked out when Garrett Atkins was signed? and how many games did he play for us?
by white angus on Sep 14, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, yes
Garrett Atkins is an irrelevant example, because he was never on the 40-man roster, much less the active roster.
Either NH thinks he needs Pagnozzi to get through this last grueling stretch, which is idiotic, or he seriously considers Pagnozzi a potential long-term option, which is also idiotic. The fact that he’d even consider wasting a roster spot on a guy like this when better players are easily available on minor league contracts every off-season, or even during the season (like Fort, who cost basically nothing) is disturbing by itself.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
how is this disturbing?
like Thunder said, we have 13 games left in the season. we arent going to the playoffs. we arent going to finish above 500. whats the harm in this?
brandon moss was ADDED to the 40 man roster in september of 2010, yet was he going to be a long term option???
cmon guys, relax.
Moss was added after he hit well in AAA, so they could get a last look at him before cutting him loose for good. He didn’t do anything after they brought him up and off he went.
Pagnozzi has proven conclusively that he can’t hit at all and they’re not going to get any kind of look at him in 13 games with three other, much better catchers available. Not at all the same situation. Moss was added for a last look, Pagnozzi was added strictly as a potential future option.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
maybe Pagz was added because hes a future backup option
a 40 man roster spot this late in the season means nothing because theres no one else that has to be put on there immediately. not one.
hague? nope
wilson? dont need to
owens? same as wilson
hernandez? already on it
morris? ditto
bowker? ugh.
maybe Pagz was added because hes a future backup option
That would be unfortunate. He’s below average even among the population of random AAA catchers. I.e. not nearly good enough to be anything more than an emergency callup in the majors.
In other words, exactly the kind of guy most teams typically have two of on minor league deals in AAA.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
and you both assume Pagz will be on the 40 man next year
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
No, but the fact that he’s on the 40-man roster right now gives him a better chance of being on it next year than if we’d let him slide through waivers unclaimed.
Not to mention that anyone who buys a ticket for the rest of the year may end up getting stuck having to watch him play, rather than an actual major league player.
But once he DOES get on, he's speedy!!
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Evidently, because if we didn’t have a sudden and unexpected need for another catcher, this move makes no sense at all.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2011 9:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Today they used both Doumit and Jarmillo as PHs
so if the game had continued into extras they would have had no one to replace Doumit if he’d been hurt. Didn’t CH mention that he was reluctant to use his backup catcher for that reason?
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 14, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
if they would have called up a bat…coughHaguecough…they wouldn’t have had that problem.
The reason that they don't want to call up Hague
was explained above. They are not planning to protect him from in Rule V draft. They’d be far more likely to lose him if they had to waive him than they would if he were only exposed to the draft.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 14, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think people
are overreacting to Hague’s “non-callup.”
He’d have to be rostered, for one thing, and then dropped if they’re going to try to pass him thru Rule 5 (I think Vlad commented on this in another thread?).
Also, he’s in Pittsburgh right now, getting workouts with the team, as are McPherson and Bryan Morris.
As far as it being a “slap in the face,” all team do this to some extent.
What’s the point of rostering a guy to get 12 AB’s?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 14, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s the point of rostering a guy to get 12 AB’s?
This very well could just be a Brandon Moss type of situation where we give a deserving guy his September call-up and then part ways with him. I have no clue what the future holds for Matt Hague in our organization, but I can tell you that I’m sure he would be grateful to take at bats in the major league and step on to the field as a player. If we aren’t putting him on the 40-man now, I doubt we plan on doing it to protect him from the Rule 5. That’s just an assumption I could be wrong about, but that’s my feeling. So if we don’t have any plans for him in the future besides being organizational depth, then it clearly wouldn’t keep our front office up at night if someone took him in the Rule 5.
if Hague is put on the roster, and stinks up the joint, will you man up and say that we have no clue what we are talking about?
heheee
that being said, if Hague is called up and plays very well, i will most certainly say that Hague should have been called up a long time ago
>:-D
Done
If Matt Hague blows, its not going to keep me from sleeping. I’m rooting for him to get the call-up, and I’ll be happy with that.
It doesn’t mean I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. This isn’t as much about baseball for me as it is about human beings. We have a young man who worked hard, which can probably be said about most players in Indy, but he also performed exceptionally. If he can’t perform at the major league level, he can’t perform at the major league level, but he still got his shot to live his dream and he got it through working hard and excellent performance— which is lesson we preach everyday in life. The conversation you get at a young age is that if you work hard and perform well, you can achieve your goals. Its not if work hard and perform well, then maybe you can achieve your goals only if the circumstance is right. Its like Harvard rejecting some kid who got a 4.0 and an almost perfect score on the SAT— he did everything he could, but for some reason other people were admitted over him, many of which didn’t have the resume he had. The Pirates aren’t the Harvard of baseball, but Matt Hague deserves the chance to live out his dream. If he performs poorly, it really makes zero difference in the grand scheme of things.
actually i meant ALL OF US not knowing what we talk about.
making sure you dont think im singling you out.
The Pirates aren’t even the Slippery Rock of baseball.
by Fat Jimmy on Sep 14, 2011 6:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He performed well, but not exceptionally. If he’d delivered a truly exceptional performance, he would’ve forced the team’s hand, like LaHair did with the Cubs.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2011 9:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not any more...
unless they took them along to the west coast.
Odds this story leads off on Baseball Tonight?
Yeah, I can see their rundown now:
1. Pirates signing Matt Pagnozzi
2. AL Wildcard race
3. NL Wildcard race
4. NL West race
Seems about right.
Theory
Maybe getting ready to deal a catcher to a contender. Are any contenders desperate for a catcher for a couple of weeks?
by sanny manguillen on Sep 14, 2011 5:20 PM EDT reply actions
It's better to buyout Doumit's contract...
…and then offer him arbitration. The Pirates stand a better chance of getting a quality player using that method than they do buy trading him with a week to go in the season.
s.zielinski
I think
in order for Doumit to play in the playoffs for a “contender”, he needed to be on a team’s roster by August 31st.
Anyone care to validate that?
by insane_sanity on Sep 15, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
nevermind
should have read further below.
by insane_sanity on Sep 15, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe we are, but do we really need to sign Pagnozzi to prepare for that?
by Fat Jimmy on Sep 14, 2011 6:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess it doesn't have to be a contender
Could just be any team whose catching is limping to the finish. Maybe we can get Denny Baustista or someone back for Jaramillo.
by sanny manguillen on Sep 14, 2011 5:41 PM EDT reply actions
I think players traded at this point are not eligible for playoff rosters
So the Doumit trade would only be for someone who is desperate for 2 weeks of catching help, or someone who finds value in his option and would exercise it.
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure that isn't true
The player has to be with the team in some capacity as of Aug 31 to be eligible for the playoff roster. They still have to clear waivers to be traded, but players acquired at this point are not eligible. I believe that there is an exception is someone on the 25 man is added to the 60 day DL, but not totally sure. There have been players in the past traded in September to a team making a playoff push who were ineligible for the playoff roster.
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I know this source is a little sketchy (second hand-ish), but it something.
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not a bad deal
I don’t have much problem with this move. I think the Pirates will sneak him through waivers right before the Winter Meetings. Then they will try to resign him to a minor league deal. Not a bad move if you are Pagnozzi. Be on a team with no real catcher and a decent chance to at least compete for a back up spot.
Bad news for McKenry. A vote of no confidence for sure. Probably sign Jarmillo is gone.
by SojourningPirate on Sep 14, 2011 6:13 PM EDT reply actions
Misplaced angst
While some of the comments are cracking me up, now that we’ve lost 82 games, I couldn’t care less if Huntington signed his brother-in-law to the 40 man. My concern with this signing is that it has something to do with 2012 and portends not picking up Doumit’s options. Biertempfel tweets a similar thought.
by Fat Jimmy on Sep 14, 2011 6:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
And if it has to do with 2012...
we’re gonna be in terrible shape behind the plate.
Yah, this is fairly harmless if it’s a short-term thing, like Burres on the roster down the stretch, but if he somehow keeps that roster spot this offseason we’re in for a world of hurt.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2011 9:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This roster...
already has enough automatic outs on it.
Shrug
Um… whatever. Far as I’m concerned, the only thing to worry about is that he’s this year’s Ledezma, the guy who gets kept on the 40 man for no damn good reason, costs us one of our prospects in Rule 5, and then ends up never playing for the Pirates again anyway.
I think this is precisely the issue
We have no idea what the underlying motive is, so I’m not inclined, right now, to see this as NH doing something stupid. He may know something – not about this guy’s abilities, but about something else – that makes this move defensible. And if he’s cut forever on September 29, then it never mattered at all. But if the Ledezma situation repeats, then I’ll be just as pissed as WTM (and Vlad) are now.
Counterpoint:
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
is that him?
I take it back then, I guess.
he IS ugly and this whole thing is terrible.
by leaflover4ever on Sep 14, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, he's Karstens-esque.
Jeff might actually be a better hitter, though.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
Perhaps this is the reason we claimed him?
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
ARE YOU F#$%ING KIDDING ME!!!! ADAMS!!! JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST YOU HAD 24 SQUARE FEET AND YOU MISSED IT ALL!! - OlenWhitaker
Certified Grabbo Lover, though only by accident.
Total Internet Points: 9001
Can't believe that's the same guy
This picture looks like his minor league batting stats.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 14, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Since Charlie mentioned him in this post,
I used to really like Steve Pearce and had high hopes for him. Now I wish he would just go away so I didn’t have to hear his name mentioned in combination with the DL ever again.
This is not a good move.
But we also need to remember its basically irrelevant. There is a great chance this guy doesn’t make the active roster for 2012, and even if he does its somewhat irrelevant because the 2012 season at the major league level is already over.
He is just filler, I wouldn’t worry to much about it. We gave up nothing to get him, and we will lose nothing when he leaves.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Except Pagnozzi takes a roster spot when we already know we have don’t have enough spots to protect all our interesting Rule 5 eligible guys this winter. Even if NH has already made his decision on who to protect or not, he took an option away.
Where does it say he is guaranteed a spot on the 40 man during the Rule 5?
You are freaking out over an assumption of something that has a good chance not to occur. You can get mad if that ends up being the case, I will be as well.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Sep 15, 2011 7:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It explicitly doesn't
But what is the point of claiming him off waivers and giving him a roster spot for 2 weeks in September if NH intends to DFA/outright him to AAA right after the World Series ?
Pagnozzi is gonna be a minor league FA next winter, NH could wait the November to sign him to play in AAA in 2012. And with his abysmal track record, I don’t expect there will be much competition for his services.
IMO, that can only mean NH wants to keep him on the roster. And I cannot understand why, with our lack of room for Rule 5 guys, non withstanding Pagnozzi’s level of play.
So it’s either weird (claim him and outright him) or stupid (keep him as a MLB backup).
This exactly
I just don’t understand it. If Doumit’s injury will keep him out the rest of the year and Fryer is secretly hurt or something, then I guess I can see it, but if those guys are both good to go, why would you add this guy?
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
Doumit's in the lineup tonight...
so we can explode that theory.
Who knows, somebody could be hurt or it could be easier to sneak him thru later.
Regardless, this is all speculation and I see no reason to flip out until something negative actually occurs, not theoretically occurs.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Sep 15, 2011 5:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
just because pagnozzi is on the 40 man right now does not mean he will be on it come april
everybody needs to relax up in here, yoh!
See above, it doesn’t. But I don’t get why NH did this if he’s going to outright him ASAP while Pagnozzi would have been available freely in November.
maybe because they need another catcher now?
theres got to be a reason for all of this. if one or more of our current catchers, doumit/mckenry/jaramillo, barely plays the last two weeks, then we will know more about this unusual transaction.
That works
“Lee and Ludwick were for the casual fans, but here’s a little something for my boys at BD.”
by JRoth95 on Sep 15, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keeping Paganozzi on the roster this offseason would be so incredibly stupid that I can’t even imagine they’d do it. As plans go, it’d be about a half step above NH setting himself on fire on the pitcher’s mound on Fan Appreciation Day.
Hold on a sec
You don’t think fans would appreciate seeing that? You’re living in a fool’s paradise.
Replace NH with Nutting,
and it’d be SRO.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably they just want him as a backup C in AAA
next season and that they have an agreement that they’ll put him on the ML roster for two weeks – he should earn about $20K – and in return he has agreed to sign with us as a minor-league FA, once he clears waivers before the Rule V draft. There is probably something close to zero chance that he will be on the 40-man roster the day of the draft.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 15, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
You bite your tongue!
Wyatt Toregas played one game for us. He came in, and like a boss he gunned down Jose Reyes on a steal attempt. He is 1-1 on stolen base putouts and that one was Jose fucking Reyes. I’d say that makes him one of the best of all time.
by Zach Buccos on Sep 14, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome
That’s when you should call it a career and retire with a perfect record.
OT, that’s what I thought when I were at a Nationals’ game earlier this month when Milone made his MLB debut : he pitched 2 perfect innings and hit a 3-run HR in his first at-bat. You can’t do better than that. It can only go downhill after, so you might as well retire.
Like Costanza
Alright folks, that’s it for me, I’m out of here.
by Mr. E on Sep 15, 2011 4:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely.
rec’d.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't even look at this thread yesterday
I came this morning, saw 224 (!) comments, and decided to pitch in.
I always love the flurry of activity that surrounds every single minor move the Pirates make, like it's the end of the world.
At least nobody said the (always/never) funny line of “World Series, here we come.”
I imagine this is all about the Pirates stockpiling some catchers until they see what happens in the off-season, nothing more, nothing less. The Pirates have to decide about offering arb to Jaramillo. Also, if a Snyder or Doumit signing gets done, I imagine Pagnozzi gets cut at that moment.
Gotta say, WTM, the over-reaction to this minor move was a bit much, especially when it spilled over into your write-up at Pirates Prospects on Pagnozzi.
Pagnozzi, like Toregas and Brown is just a filler guy, while the Pirates sort out their catching situation.
And with Sanchez not doing great at Altoona, I don’t imagine he’ll make an immediate move to Indy next year (though, who knows). So that means the Pirates are going to have to get 4 catchers into slots in Pittsburgh and Indy. I have to imagine that McKenry is the only guarantee. But, the Pirates have the full power to decide the future of Snyder and Doumit.
If I were to venture a guess, I imagine this move means that they are NOT going to pick up either Snyder or Doumit’s option and try to re-negotiate a smaller contract with one or both. I’m sure Pagnozzi is only there, in case they can’t work out a new deal with either of those 2.
How much you want to bet the Pirates do everything in their power to work on a new contract with Doumit (or Snyder) before the 40-man roster is set for the Rule 5 and Pagnozzi is released if they bring one of the 2 back into the fold.
I’d like to see the Pirates decline both options and offer both catchers a 2-year, $6 million contract. If one or both of them takes it, great, bring them back. Or else, let Snyder walk and work on a slightly better contract for Doumit,
Well, 42 is the answer…
Do you have your towel?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I wondered...
how long it would take someone to catch the reference.
Gotta say, WTM, the over-reaction to this minor move was a bit much, especially when it spilled over into your write-up at Pirates Prospects on Pagnozzi.
Pagnozzi, like Toregas and Brown is just a filler guy, while the Pirates sort out their catching situation.
Your own examples undermine your points. Toregas and Brown were signed to minor league deals, took up no roster space, and were called up only when needed. And, yes, they’re VERY similar to Pagnozzi, which is why you don’t carry players like him on the roster unless you’ve run out of catchers in the majors. (By the way, that’s exactly what the Cards and Rockies did with Pagnozzi. They added him to the roster only when they needed him in the majors very briefly. And the Rockies got him originally on a minor league deal, which is how teams normally acquire guys like this.) And Fort, who was acquired at short notice in the middle of the season for no real cost, is way better than Pagnozzi, and I’m not that enthused about Fort. He’s a perfect example of how easy it is to find players at least as good as Pagnozzi without committing roster spots to them.
Pagnozzi has a long history of being an utterly hopeless hitter. He shouldn’t even be under consideration as any type of option other than AAA roster filler on a minor league deal. It’s EASY to find guys as good as or better than him in the off-season without wasting roster spots on them. And you don’t stockpile guys like that as possible long-term options.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Just to illustrate a little: Pagnozzi’s OPS at Colorado Springs this year was 19th out of the 21 guys who got more than 100 plate appearances there. McKenry was there in 2010, and he was 9th of the 16 guys with 100 PAs. I’m just hoping that management didn’t look at the .275 average and think that he turned a corner.
by sanny manguillen on Sep 15, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
there are 2 weeks left in this season, we all need to relax on this.
just because Pagz is on the 40 man NOW doesnt mean he will be on it come april. the only way the team can get a look at him is to put him on the roster NOW.
theres a very very good chance that he’ll be in tripleA in 2012 yet everyone on here thinks he’ll be our opening day starter or something…
unbelievable.
WTM, I'm not trying to pick on you, but....
I can’t understand your frustration with this move. If the Pirates had given up a 40-man spot on somebody to add Pagnozzi, I could maybe see your anger as justified. But, c;mon, Steve Pearce moved to the 60-day DL. No spots were taken, This was a completely harmless move.
And I seriously think that you’re getting too excited, too early.
If you think about it in terms of what I said above: If they plan to decline the options on Doumit and Snyder and refuse arb to Jaramillo, why not have a couple of catchers on the roster, while you’re negotiating new deals with one or more of those guys.
Then, if you sign one: Pagnozzi gets cuts loose, it’s really not that big of a deal. If you misjudge what it’s going to take bring back a Doumit or Snyder on a more friendly deal and they both walk, you at least have some bodies on the roster while you scour the trade market, FA and waiver wire.
You bring up McKenry, but don’t forget that picking him up was not easy. Remember (at least according to NH & CH) that teams were trying to take advantage of the Pirates’ catching situation and asking for an arm and a leg. I believe a story came out about someone asking for Garrett Jones in exchange for a 3rd string catcher, or something.
So, when a catcher with a good defensive rep (Baseball America listed him as the best defensive catcher in the Cards org for 2009) gets DFA’d and you have an uncertain catching situation going into next year, why not add him, ESPECIALLY when no 40-man roster spot was sacrificed?
I could maybe see your anger as justified. But, c;mon, Steve Pearce moved to the 60-day DL. No spots were taken,
None were taken, I suppose, but there is opportunity cost here. I can’t believe tis guy was the best possible player that has been available on waivers since the team has decided, unofficially, that Steve Pearce was done for the year. I can’t believe that there wasn’t a better, younger player that we could take a look at rather than an old catcher who’s skills are readily available at pretty much anytime throughout the year. Its the waste of opportunity that is ridiculous. We really can’t afford to throw opportunities away, no matter how small they are. If we are inclined to throw away spots on the 40 at this point in he season, I think it speaks better for the team to promote a guy who had a good year in the minors. Not the worst thing in the world, but I just hate to see this team waste things when they have so little to start with.
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
i still dont see the argument in this.
hague, for lack of a better description, is not a prospect.
yes, he had a very nice 2011. he has improved slightly as he has
risen in the minors.
but we’re beating ourselves up over NOT calling him up on the roster???
hes actually in PITTSBURGH right now. hes practicing with the team, along
with a few other select guys. its kind of like Fall Training.
hague is not being screwed. just like Vlad has said, he has to do more to make himself standout. hes not a power guy. hes not a good athlete. hes a “meh” glove at 2 positions.
but hague, if not taken in the rule5, can still show the same thing in spring training.
unless the team aquires a 1Bman for next season (which they need to do)
Best case
they would claim someone with more upside than an old catcher. I wouldn’t love the decision to bring Hague up, but it may hold some personnel merit.
Think of it this way, I would prefer they give the $1 (40 man spot) for a lottery ticket, or just give it to the kid who lives next door for a cup of crappy lemonade then give it to a guy walking down the street. (sorry that fell apart at the end)
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Except for every other waive shop would could take
instead we take a veteran AAA catcher, and give him a spot on the 40
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
You keep saying this as if there was some factual support
But there’s not. Clearly, NH is contemplating more than two weeks. There’s no reason whatsoever to add him for that. They could have brought Fryer up if they were afraid JJ would tweak a hammy running out his latest GIDP and Doumit would pull an oblique watching him.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
theres no reason to believe this is permanent either
i think you guys are just jumping the gun on this one.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t have to be permanent. It just has to last past November and the harm will be done.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Here is the real problem
The opportunity cost for Pagnozzi will include a possible Rule 5 loss if the Pirates keep him around after the season is over. Pagnozzi might not make the 40-man roster next spring, but keeping him around will have a cost despite that possibility.
s.zielinski
hague, for lack of a better description, is not a prospect.
Neither was Alex Presley but he’s been one of the team’s better players since being promoted to Pittsburgh.
#AlltheBuntsAreBad
wasnt presley called up because of necessity?
tabata gets hurt, diaz not hitting, jones not hitting…
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
with the dismissal of Overbay and the addition of Jones...
Hague was not needed.
plus Presley was in his 2nd season in AAA. Hague just finished his 1st.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
presley is also a better ballplayer than Hague... good speed, good defense (not counting long flyballs aparently... lol) and he bats left handed
Hague? good batting average. thaz-it.
by the way, im not trying to diss Hague here. Im just trying to put myself in the FO’s shoes and figure out what they see, or dont see, with him.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
For a team that ranks...
13th in batting average in the NL, and 25th in the majors…we don’t need someone with a good batting average??
okay, thunder, tell me one thing: why in the world isnt Hague up in Pittsburgh right now?
1. i want your opinion why he is not
2. i want to know what you think the reasoning is from the FO
3. i want weather forecasts for the next 6 months
see, #3 is alot like Hague. we have no idea whats going to happen with him. sure, you could say we never gave Hague a chance to show what he could do. Or maybe we’re just playing it safe and just take an umbrella with us wherever we go.
Presley may not have been a “prospect”, but he performed better at AAA than Hague did. He hit better and played better defense at a more difficult defensive position. Which is why he got a chance, while Hague didn’t.
Understood.
I personally like Hague better than Harrison, Ciriaco and Wood. Would have been nice to see him get a little look to find out if he would be overmatched. But since he’s pretty much been pegged as a 1B only option I understand why he is not on the roster.
#AlltheBuntsAreBad
What you’re basically assuming is that there’s no chance Pagnozzi will stay on the roster. Because any eventuality that results in him being on the roster past November is idiotic. He is absolutely guaranteed to keep a better player off the roster if that happens. But if there’s zero chance of Pagnozzi staying on the roster, why is he on the roster at all? To help the team get through 13 games?
The only conceivable reason for this move is that they consider Pagnozzi to be a potential 40-man roster player for next year. And that’s idiotic because there is absolutely no scenario where it makes sense. None. If they don’t bring back Doumit or Snyder, it’ll still be stupid to have Pagnozzi on the roster because they can easily find better players who’ll sign minor league deals. They already have a player with far more potential in Fryer, and two others who are better players in JJ and Fort. The fact that he would even remotely think, regardless of what happens with Snyder, Doumit or anybody else, that the team might be better off with Pagnozzi on the roster next year makes me question NH’s judgment.
And being the best defensive catcher in a perenially weak system means about as much as being Dave Littlefield’s best blow drier. There’s a reason the Cards bring in veterans to back up Molina every year.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
but the pirates dont have a Molina
thus a need to look at every available catcher they can. plus its not like this team is in a pennant race.
Uh . . . so they’re considering Pagnozzi to be a starter?
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
And what’s to look at? Have you SEEN the guy’s track record? It’s one of the worst I’ve even seen.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Cedeno had been a starter
for extended periods on 2 major league teams. That is not really comparable. Leroux was a young pitcher with potential. Starter or potential or young, 3 things, along with competent, that Pagnozzi is not.
by Wizard of Woz on Sep 15, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
every player had potential, thats how they got to the majors in the first place.
Cedeno’s track record was awful. Resop failed in Japan. Leroux was just another power arm who got racked consistantly.
Ludwick at one time was a has been before hitting it big in StLouis.
Nelson Cruz the same thing.
Cedeno was a great hitter in AAA and has long been regarded by scouts as having very good all-around ability. Leroux was very good in the minors and, well, has a power arm. Pagnozzi has been unearthly bad with the bat from day one. There isn’t a shred of evidence that he’ll ever hit enough to be even a passable backup catcher.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Same with Cruz and Ludwick. They had track records that suggested they had significant hitting ability. What’s remarkable about Pagnozzi is that there’s nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest he’ll ever hit at all, at any level.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Besides that, I’d be much more inclined to cut the FO some slack when it comes to a pitcher who hasn’t been successful. If he has good stuff, they may be able to make some tweaks and help him be productive, as they’ve done with Leroux. This can happen even with guys who are a little bit older. But it would take some kind of coaching miracle to ever get Pagnozzi to hit. Position players don’t really work the same way.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
we looked at Leroux didnt we?
At the time we added Leroux, his record was better than Paganozzi’s, and there were also reasons to think that his record might not be representative of his true potential (his arm injury, his late conversion to pitching, etc.). The two really aren’t comparable at all.
So was Resop’s.
Resop’s career track record was undistinguished, but he had performed very well in the season in which we made the waiver claim, whereas Paganozzi has not.
Pagz is NOT in the long term plans, holy jeebus
why cant anyone see this?
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
You're just not paying attention
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 15, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We hope that that's true.
But he shouldn’t be in the short-term plans, either, and that’s the thing you don’t seem to be getting, for whatever reason.
oh cmon, you could tell by my statements that i dont see Pagz as our future starter
and im pretty sure the pirates feel the same way. but for some reason you think putting Pagz on the 40 man makes him a permanent fixture for this team.
which it doesnt.
And you can tell by my statements that I don’t think he’s a permanent fixture. I know he’s depth. But he’s bad depth and you don’t put guys like that on the roster until you have to have them in the majors.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
its two weeks left in the season!
please give me one reason why this matters with 2 weeks left???
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Look all over this thread. Exactly what are you relying on for your assumption that he’ll be gone in two weeks? All your arguments are based on this one assumption that you can’t support.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
wheres your support that he will be on the 40 next season?
i see nothing that says thus.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s on there now, and there’s no rational explanation for that other than that they’re considering the possibility. Of course, I’ve explained that over and over, but you’re clearly just trolling at this point and not attempting to respond to what people are saying. So troll away on your own from here.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
by WTM on Sep 15, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
but you’re clearly just trolling at this point and not attempting to respond to what people are saying
because im not agreeing with you and a couple other people?
thanks for the troll comment, by the way. all ive said is that there is no guarantee that Pagz is still around much less on the roster come april. im sticking by that comment.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
You mean something like this...
@BiertempfelTribRob Biertempfel
Sources I’ve talked to say Pagnozzi does NOT project as an everyday catcher in majors. #Pirates got him for shot at backup role in 2012
by Thunder on Sep 15, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
not really
i still v much doubt he stays on the 40 man when we get to the point of freezing rosters for the rule 5…
by BurgherKing on Sep 16, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
wow, so nothing will change in the next 7 months before the 2012 season starts???
the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!! aieeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!
Gawd, I hate that song.
I know it’s blasphemy, but oh, man – it’s the worst thing he’s ever done.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 17, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
The Pirates don't have a Molina...
but there is one available…Bengie.
But if there’s zero chance of Pagnozzi staying on the roster, why is he on the roster at all? To help the team get through 13 games?
I’m operating under the theory that Doumit must’ve pulled a hammy or something, because otherwise this makes no sense at all.
i agree that it makes no known sense, but its not a big deal either
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
When your organization is making decisions that make no sense, that IS a big deal, since it suggests the existence of an underlying problem with the organization’s decision-making process.
it does not
it just shows that we dont know everything behind the aquisition. mckenry and doumit may be banged up.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
If that turns out to be the case, then OK, false alarm. But if not, then this is absolutely the kind of move that should lead to widespread panic.
thats crazy, vlad
cmon, man. 2 weeks in the season, brutha. 2 weeks.
if hes the starting catcher in april, then i will admit its a disaster
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
2 weeks in the season, brutha.
The fact that the season’s nearly over makes it less damaging, but not less dumb. Like trying to shoot yourself in the foot and putting the bullet between two of your toes. The fact that you didn’t actually cripple yourself doesn’t make it a good idea.
why is it dumb?
if a catcher is needed for a couple of weeks, and theres nothing for us to gain standings wise, how is it dumb?
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
if a catcher is needed for a couple of weeks, and theres nothing for us to gain standings wise, how is it dumb?
We have a better catcher on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man roster. As such, if a catcher is needed for a couple of weeks, call up the better player. The fans who have to watch the remaining games will appreciate it.
no they wont. they'll find other things to bitch about.
yes, there are other better players. i just dont understand the “jumping the gun” on this.
people bitched about leroux.
people bitched about both woods’
people bitched about overbay…
okay, you got me on the last one
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
people bitched about leroux.
people bitched about both woods’
people bitched about overbay…
For the record:
I liked Leroux and Tim Wood as pickups, and said so at the time. I didn’t like Brandon Wood or Overbay, and I said that at the time, too.
You aren’t arguing with a generic person. You’re arguing with me. If I go off on a player, I’m not just being reactionary. I’m delivering a considered opinion (which still may or may not be correct, of course).
I don’t think I’m “jumping the gun”, as you put it. I looked at Pagnozzi’s numbers, I checked my old BA guides for scouting reports, and I read what his former teams’ fans said about him online. From this information, I came up with a preliminary conclusion that he sucks, and I haven’t seen any new information that’d lead me to alter that opinion yet.
im not saying you jumped the gun on Pagz not being a good player
im saying people are jumping the gun by thinking Pagz is going to be around a while.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Pirates luck
Like trying to shoot yourself in the foot and putting the bullet between two of your toes. The fact that you didn’t actually cripple yourself doesn’t make it a good idea.
s.zielinski
No spots were taken, This was a completely harmless move.
The opportunity to add a different player capable of performing above replacement level was lost. There are literally a dozen guys waived over the last month who have, in the abstract, more value than Paganozzi.
For example, a couple of days ago Jason Rice got DFA’ed. He’s 25 years old, he throws 95, and he struck out 89 batters in 85 1/3 innings at AAA this year. Which player has a better chance of being useful in the future: Him, or Paganozzi?
how about neither?
Now you’re just trolling.
by Vlad on Sep 15, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I don't.
I think you’re being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian here. You’re a reasonable observer of baseball, so you should be able to appreciate that a guy like Rice has a better chance of developing into a useful part than a guy like Paganozzi does.
i admit i get contrarian on this site just to get some nice debates going...
just not on this topic.
for the record, im not an idiot. i know Pagz has not been a good player. i get this. but im not going to get all Daytime Emmy about this pickup.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, Rice would make sense. We are only left to hope that FO knows ehat they are doing...
My guess is that they are taking a flyer on Pagnozzi because someone in the Org thinks there may be something there. otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
you draft best talent available, you sign for need...
Jaramillo, snyder and doumit are all probably gone. Pagz is nothing more than filler. Hes on the 40 man right now so he can play some the rest of the season.
if hes on the Pitt 25 man next year, then you all have a great argument.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Hes on the 40 man right now so he can play some the rest of the season.
In the absence of an injury to one of our other catchers, why would allowing Paganozzi to “play some the rest of the season” be a thing that the organization should care about?
Or why not call Fryer up? He at least might be useful in the future.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
hes already up... hes just not playing in any games
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s not on the active roster. You don’t seem to be getting the point of anything anybody is posting.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
This is a good point.
If Paganozzi were just emergency injury insurance, why wouldn’t they have just activated Fryer? He’s already in town and everything… hand him a shirt and he’s good to go.
Because, obviously, they’re considering Pagnozzi as a long-term option. And, what Angus seems to have missed, is that NH has already said exactly that. He is NOT on the roster for just two weeks.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
hahaha
do you think NH or any other GM would actually sign a guy and say “hes just here for a couple of games. hes garbage but we had no choice”???
cmon, guys
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
NH had no problem saying that Luis Munoz was here in case we needed 75 pitches out of the pen one night.
by sanny manguillen on Sep 15, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pagnozzi, like Toregas and Brown is just a filler guy, while the Pirates sort out their catching situation.
There are lots of different kinds of filler. Some are better than others. As filler goes, a guy like Paganozzi is like stuffing your Thanksgiving turkey with fiberglass insulation from the dumpster at work.
when Toregas was picked up, and Brown called up, this site went apeshit.
this is pretty much falling right in line with those.
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
when Toregas was picked up, and Brown called up, this site went apeshit.
That had more to do with people being upset about Doumit’s injury than with the actual merits of Toregas and/or Brown.
Both of whom, IMO, are also better than Pagnozzi.
dang, thats saying something, cuz we all know how you feel about Brown... lol
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think I have any real strong feelings about him one way or the other. Are you maybe thinking of someone else?
i know you were neutral on Toregas, im pretty sure you deemed Brown "not good"...
but, it may have been someone else… doesnt matter
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of declining options....
has anybody put Vegas odds on the Braves picking up McLouth’s $10.65 million (yikes!!!) option for next year?? There’s even a $1.25 million buyout on that option.
Huh?
Much much much lower.
Maholm’s value the last 4 years: $12.5M, $14.4M, $8.2M, $9.5M
McLouth’s value: $17.8M, $15.5M, -$5.0M, $0.9M.
There is literally no chance the Braves would pick up McLouth’s salary. They’d be better off trading us Alex Gonzalez for Cedeno and Gorkys and paying everybody’s salaries.
Even if the odds of the Pirates picking up Maholm’s option are small, small>0.
Has the PTBNL for Fort been named yet? Maybe he’s going to be returned for himself and Pagnozzi has been picked up as a potential replacement for Fort in the future.
by thecheeseisblue on Sep 15, 2011 1:24 AM EDT reply actions
I will get this all cleared up
next time I talk to NH.
Okay?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Grazie.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Lots of words here for this signing...
Until reading this thread I thought the Pagnozzi Bros owned a few sandwich restaraunts throughout the Pittsburgh area. Mmmmm…cheesesteak!
#FreeJoelHanrahan!
#AndAlltheBuntsAreStillBad!
I’d much rather they put a cheesesteak on the roster.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Great... now I'm hungry.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
How about CORS
Calories Over Reducing Sandwich
s.zielinski
WTH
is a “reducing sandwich?”
The only way I know how to reduce a sandwich is by eating it.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
...
maybe you can boil it into a consommé, then boil the water off and have a concentrated sludge?
by BlindSquirrel on Sep 15, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Note to self:
Do not eat at BlindSquirrel’s house.
by JRoth95 on Sep 15, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
and rec
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 16, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
as does BlindSquirrel...
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 17, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
200+ comments
on a fourth-string catcher? I didn’t bother to read all that, I just came down to the end to see what direction the thread had wandered.
And now I’m hungry too, dammit.
Pagnozzi thoughts
Huge over-reaction here in my mind.
First off, we are talking about the bottom of the 40-man roster just to put this in perspective. And actually, with guys on the 60-day DL and other minor leaguers to protect soon, this is more like the bottom of the 50-man list of prospective 40-man roster players.
Regarding catcher’s, wasn’t Pagnozzi just waived off someone else’s 40-man roster to become available to the Pirates? And if he really is the most worthless player in the minors, and this should be the cause of “widespread panic”, why has he lasted so long in the minors, and why has he reached AAA and even a taste of the majors?
I trust scouts from all the teams that have rostered him in the past, more than us posters evaluating minor league hitting stats. I believe that the Pirates viewed Pagnozzi as a better defensive catcher than anything they currently have in the majors or AAA. If they had Jaramillo on the 40-man, and replace him with Pagnozzi, I don’t really care. I do know there have been countless times that I have wished we just had a top notch defensive catcher instead of the crap we have used the last few years.
Sure we need more offense, but how many of those guys have become available on waivers. This may not be the biggest need at this time for the Pirates, but that shouldn’t stop them from trying to get improvement in minor needs.
by ballparkfranks on Sep 15, 2011 11:52 AM EDT reply actions
why has he lasted so long in the minors, and why has he reached AAA and even a taste of the majors?
Because he spent most of his career with the Cardinals, who were also the longtime employer of his uncle Tom Pagnozzi. It’s a nepotism thing, like Tom Glavine’s brother getting a cup of coffee in the bigs even though he can’t play at all. Then, once he made it high enough in the system, TLR started boosting him because he had a strong personal dislike for Bryan Anderson and needed an excuse to not promote or play Anderson.
Pagnozzi was in the majors for us to inexplicably claim on waivers this year because the Rockies’ primary backup catcher (Jose Morales) broke his thumb and they didn’t want to call up an actual prospect (like Jordan Pacheco, the primary starter at Colorado Springs, or Wilin Rosario, the primary starter at Tulsa) to sit on the bench behind Iannetta and start once every two weeks. So they took their backup catcher from AAA (i.e. Pagnozzi) instead, and used him as sparingly as possible.
Sure we need more offense, but how many of those guys have become available on waivers. This may not be the biggest need at this time for the Pirates, but that shouldn’t stop them from trying to get improvement in minor needs.
Runs are runs. It doesn’t matter where runs come from. Pagnozzi could be the best defensive catcher in the history of baseball, and it still wouldn’t be enough to make up for the fact that he couldn’t hit the ground if he fell out of a 747.
shoot, im pretty sure he would hit ground
“if only Pagz could fly”
by white angus on Sep 15, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
You’ve spent an incredible amount of time either researching this or trying to justify your opinion. This move did not create the same kind of widespread panic in me, so I’ll admit that I haven’t spent the time digging for the kind of stuff you’re posting.
by ballparkfranks on Sep 15, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ve spent an incredible amount of time either researching this or trying to justify your opinion.
What can I say? Obsessives gonna obsess.
Even though it's horrible,
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 15, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
For Fuck Sake who
let DL into PNC park. Or who slipped a micky thin into the water cooler. This is bad real fucking bad. Pagnozzi straight up succcccccccccks!
Maybe this is a sign that we are going again with Snyder/Doumit next year
If the FO wants to go down this oft injured road again next year, which is likely the best we will find offensively, it would make sense to have two guys like Mckenry and Pagnozzi ready to go instead of having to rely on the D. Brown or Teregas. That is assuming Pagnozzi is better that both of those guys.
Toregas gets way too much crap for no reason
It was Brown that sucked. Wyatt is a defensive beast who had like 5 ABs for us and 4 of them were against a knuckleballer, which I’m sure he sees a lot of in the minors.
One theory that can be immediately ditched...
picking up Pagnozzi had NOTHING to do with an injury to Doumit. Doumit is in the starting lineup tonight.
Well, in an effort
to get this thread to 300 comments, I’m announcing now that I’m pencilling in Pagnozzi as the Pirates’ starting catcher f/the next three years in the next update of the charts. Maybe this will never be a “We Signed Overbay?!” thread, but I’m sensing an overflow coming up.
What does that mean?!
In case anybody is still wondering, Hurdle has flushed the “just two weeks” theory down the toilet, not that it took much intelligence to see what a load of crap it was:
“I do anticipate trying to get him in a couple games while he’s here,” Hurdle said. “We’ve only got a two-week window to make a first impression upon him. We’ve tried to acquire him with a longer-term vision. I don’t know where the vision is on his part as a player. He’ll have some different options to look at this winter.”
And Biertemple is reporting that NH originally wanted Pagnozzi instead of Fort.
http://twitter.com/#!/BiertempfelTrib/status/114489281703190528
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
It's the Pirates
We can panic any damn time we want.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 16, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Pagnozzi reportedly to start tonight at 1B
I’ll get this thread to 400 comments or get banned trying
Shoot for the stars, pal.
it’s not even at 300, and already halfway down the home page…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 17, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
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