Ryan Doumit: 'Slim' Possibility Of Return
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 28, 2011 9:03 PM EDT
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Ryan Doumit doesn't think it's likely that he'll be back:
"The last couple days I've just been trying to enjoy it," Doumit said. "I know the probability of me being back is probably slim, but I've just been trying to enjoy the last couple of days and soak it all in."
There's also a quote from Clint Hurdle later in the article that makes clear that he doesn't think Doumit will be back, either, and that the Pirates (unsurprisingly) aren't going to pick up his option.
More from Doumit:
"I hope my legacy here isn't that I was always hurt because, for me, that's a tough pill to swallow," Doumit said. "I tried to give my best every day. I tried to be the guy that was reliable. The last couple years, in particular, I feel like I haven't been that guy with injuries and not playing up to my abilities."
Doumit and Paul Maholm are the last remaining links to the Dave Littlefield era. (Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker were drafted by Littlefield, but they didn't actually play for the Pirates during that time.) The team will feel pretty different without them, if in fact they both leave.
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I just don't understand
what NH thinks will happen at C without Doumit. I get that his double option is unattractive on the face of it, and even more so with Sanchez (we hope) coming up in ‘13. But we simply don’t have an ML starting-grade C on the roster for 2012. I suppose they could pick up Snyder, but that seems like a recipe for 100 starts by McKenry. I mean, Doumit’s always injured, but back injuries are tough for office workers, let alone MLB catchers.
And I see close to zero chance that we sign a significantly positive FA C. 2012 doesn’t figure to be a contending year or anything, but no reason to punt on it. Add a good 1B (easier said than done, I know), and we’ve got a credible group of players 1-8… except for C.
I dunno. Maybe NH has trade targets in mind. But I have a sick feeling in my stomach that we’re going to start 2012 with a ceiling of 1 WAR from the catching position.
If only Sanchez had progressed this year.
Well, this is why I don’t understand the hatred of Doumit. The alternative is zero offense and probably no better than decent defense at C. McKenry was a nice story and all, but he’s a passable backup and that’s it. And I don’t see us acquiring anybody any better than him. The position was, on balance, pretty good this year. Next year it’ll probably be a black hole. When you’re starting with an offense as utterly hopeless as the Pirates’, downgrading at any position is a major setback.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Yep
I kind of understand why the FO would dump Cedeno – the contract is dirt cheap, but as maddening as he is to fans, it’s gotta be 10X worse for his actual coworkers. It’s dumb, but understandable.
But Doumit? I’ve never read anything suggesting he’s anything but a standup guy with bad luck (or whatever it is that makes players chronically injured). Sure, the 2 year option is a hard lift, but A. they can afford it, and B. if they kiss his ass for a few months, they can probably sell him on a renegotiation that works for both of them (weak as the FA C market it, it’s not like he’s due for a 4/$60 payday). And the alternative is close to a black hole.
Personally
I’ve never said a word against him. I get the frustration at the injuries, and some years his defense has looked Delwayn Young-like, but come on. No one wants a broken foot. No one wants to break his hand checking a swing. He’s not a loafer. And he’s always played at a decent rate, even when he hasn’t played as many games as you’d like. I’ll be happy to see a solid, healthy C if we ever get one, but it’s not like Doumit is the only starting C in baseball who’s subpar.
Doumit and Cedeno hatred is irrational
Both were the best players the Pirates had at their positions this season and both will be the best players the Pirates are likely to have at their positions in 2012, assuming, of course, that the team brings them back.
s.zielinski
I don't think it's Doumit "hatred", it's called being realistic.
Ryan Doumit has played seven seasons in the big leagues. How many times has he had 100+ starts in those 7 seasons? Once.
How many times has he even APPEARED in more than 83 games in his career. Twice.
The Pirates would be paying a huge amount of money for a half-time catcher.
By way of comparison, in Yadier Molina’s last seven years, he’s given the Cardinals over 100 starts 5 times and has appeared in over 100 games every one of the last 7 seasons.
In Jason Kendall’s 15 years in the league, he had ONE season where he didn’t give his team over 100 starts. And in most seasons, his team would get over 130 starts out of him.
I like Ryan Doumit, but, unfortunately, he has consistently shown that you’re going to get less than 80 games out of him for a season. Why in the world would you give him $5+ million again?
And Doumit would be stupid not to go out into free agency and see what he can get on the open market. If the Pirates could land Doumit for, say, $3 million or less, I wouldn’t have a problem.
But it’s not going to happen.
You’ve got some legitimate points to make. I was talking about the people, of which there are quite a few, who say they just want him gone no matter what.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
WTM, I see what you're saying. Perhaps I'm missing the people who want him gone no matter what.
Really my beef is this, a lot of people want to keep Doumit, strictly because of the fear of what’s left at the catching situation if he (and Snyder) both leave. But, really, my point is Doumit’s likely to be out of the line-up at least 80-some games, so those scary alternatives are going to be out there more often than we’d like, anyway.
If Doumit is on the team, that means McKenry will be seeing at least 80-some odd starts. Personally, I’d rather see a decent catcher be getting 100-120 starts, so McKenry’s only got to be out there for maybe 40-60 starts.
If my calculations are correct....
The Pittsburgh Pirates have played 1,079 baseball games since Ryan Doumit made his debut on June 5, 2005. Of those 1,079 games, Ryan Doumit has started only 403 of those games behind the plate. That’s just over 37.3% of the team’s games. That’s even less than a half-time catcher.
And the Pirates have given him just over $12 million for that.
I agree, it’s not Doumit’s fault. But it would be one thing if this just happened once or twice, but it’s every year.
And, what's scary....is that for all of the power that we hear Doumit posseses
He’s hit just 67 major league home runs.
To put that in perspective….Ronny Cedeno has hit 33 home runs in the same number of seasons.
Lyle Overbay has hit 111 in the same time period.
And Garrett Jones has hit 60 in basically 3 seasons.
I hate to sound like I’m hating on Ryan Doumit, but he’s been extremely frustrating to watch, because he’s often not in there.
It would be one thing if he had a healthy season this year, and you could argue, maybe he’s put the injuries behind him, but again…2011….the Pirates got 53 starts out of him behind the plate. And he appeared in the field 60 total times this year.
Jose Veras, Daniel McCutchen, Chris Resop, and Joel Hanrahan each appeared out on the field more often this year than Ryan Doumit, if that tells you anything.
This is all very reasonable. And I shudder to think what’s going to happen to Doumit, injury-wise, as he advances into his 30s. There’s no reason to think his problems in that area are going to get better, unless he moves to first full-time or something.
That said, when he plays his bat is SO much better than the other available options. Stratospherically better. I guess for me it comes down to thinking that the Pirates really are that desperate for offense.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 28, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
64, actually... 55 as a catcher
the number that does stand out more than anything, and Doumit would probably admit its his worst number, is that over the last 5 seasons he has averaged 95 games appeared.
doumit’s career OPS in not too far under 800. his bat has never been in question… check that, his LH bat has never been in question.
durability is the issue. same with Snyder.
refresh my memory
Was that all because Doumit was injured, or did they just start Paulino (and Cota) over him for the first three years out of bullheadedness? I kind of thought that they hadn’t given him the starting job for a while, which makes it seem unfair to count those games against him.
Excluding the first three seasons only brings him up to a little over half-time, but I don’t think his history indicates that he’s only good for 37.3% of games going forward.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Sep 28, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Doumit debuted June 5, 2005. That was only a third of the way thru the season, but he played in only 75 games because McClendon kept benching him. He was healthy all year.
In 2006-07, Paulino was the regular catcher. Doumit lost a lot of games because of that, but he was also hurt for a big chunk of 2006 and for the last six weeks of 2007.
Also, he missed a bunch of games this year, when Snyder was starting or down the stretch when everybody was starting.
So, no, it’s not correct to imply that he missed all those games due to injury. But he did lose most of them that way.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
In 2006-07, Paulino was the regular catcher.
Just remember that 2006 didn’t start out that way. Doumit and Cota were scheduled to split the catching duties that year. Paulino started the year in AAA (actually got sent to Indy the same day as Jose Bautista!!) It was Doumit’s injury in April 2006 that got Paulino promoted and he took over the regular catching duties shortly thereafter. Doumit spent half of April and most of June, July and August of that year on the DL.
Well, let's take a look at the Doumit timeline...
June 4, 2005 - Ty Wigginton optioned to AAA Indy, Doumit recalled, makes major league debut.
2005:
Doumit makes 48 starts the rest of that year (plus 6 as a DH and 3 as OF).
Humberto Cota gets 51 starts after Doumit makes his debut.
David Ross starts 9.
Doumit healthy the whole year.
2006:
Start of the year: 4 starts at catcher.
April 16: Doumit to 15-day DL for strained left hamstring (retroactive to April 12).
May 2: Doumit returns.
May 2-June 4: 3 starts as catcher
June 5: Doumit to 15-day DL for torn left hamstring
August 23: Doumit activated
August 23-end of year: 3 starts as catcher with 25 as a 1B.
For the year: Ronny Paulino 117 starts, Humberto Cota 29 starts, Carlos Maldonado 6 starts.
Total: Doumit makes 10 starts behind the plate (and 27 at 1st base and 3 as DH).
Days on the DL: 99
2007:
April 7: Doumit optioned to Indy
April 26: Humbero Cota injured, Doumit recalled from Indy
April 26-August 13: 28 starts behind the plate.
August 14: Doumit to 15-day DL with sprained left wrist.
September 8: Activated Doumit from DL
September 12: Doumit to 60-day DL with sprained right ankle
November 13: Doumit activated from DL
For the year: Ronny Paulino 119 starts, Carlos Maldonado 8 starts, Humberto Cota 5 starts.
Total: Doumit makes 28 starts behind the plate (33 in the OF, and 2 at 1st base and 1 as DH).
Days on the DL: 43 (during the season), though it’s officially 86 days he spent on the DL
2008:
Start of season-May 13: 25 starts at C
May 14: Doumit to 15-day DL with left thumb fracture
June 5: activated Doumit from DL
June 5-end of season: 78 starts at C
For the year: Ronny Paulino 27 starts, Raul Chavez 31 starts, Robinzon Diaz 1 start.
Total: Doumit makes 103 starts behind the plate.
Days on the DL: 22
2009:
Start of season-April 20: 11 starts at C
April 21: Doumit to 15-day DL with broken right wrist (retroactive to April 20).
July 3: begins rehab with GCL Pirates
July 10: activated Doumit from DL
July 10-end of season: 59 starts at C
For the year: Jason Jaramillo 58 starts, Robinzon Diaz 33 starts.
Total: Doumit makes 70 starts behind the plate and 1 start as DH.
Days on the DL: 81
2010:
Start of season-July 21: 72 starts at C
July 22: Doumit to 15-day DL with concussion
August 7: activated Doumit from DL
August 7-end of season: 19 starts behind the plate
For the year: Chris Snyder 38 starts, Jason Jaramillo 25 starts, Erik Kratz 8 starts.
Total: Doumit makes 91 starts behind the plate, 17 starts in the OF, 3 starts at 1B and 1 start as DH.
Days on the DL: 16
2011:
Start of season-May 29: 24 starts at C
May 30: Doumit to 15-day DL with left ankle sprain
July 31: transferred Doumit from 15 to 60-day DL
August 3: activated Doumit from DL
August 3-end of season: 29 starts behind the plate
For the year: Michael McKenry 54 starts, Chris Snyder 25 starts, Jason Jaramillo 7 starts, Dusty Brown 8 starts, Eric Fryer 7 starts, Wyatt Toregas 1 start, Matt Pagnozzi 2 starts .
Total: Doumit makes 53 starts behind the plate.
Days on the DL: 65
by impliedi on Sep 29, 2011 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I would have a lot more sympathy for your argument if I was
confident that the FO would do something useful with the money, like save it to spend on an impact FA when the team has matured a bit, or to help finance an extension for someone like Cutch. But my fear is that they will just spend it on next year’s version of Overbay/Diaz. Isn’t $7 MM about what they paid those two? I would rather watch a half season of Doumit than get stuck with a couple of third-tier FAs again.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 29, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
What about picking up someone cheaper (and a little more reliable than Doumit) like Ramon Hernandez...
and then spend the rest of the money you had planned on spending on Snyder/Doumit and put it towards the pitching staff.
My feeling on this is that the Pirates only hope of being any kind of surprise contender will come down to the pitching staff. Why throw money trying to band-aid an offense that is far from being helpful.
I’d rather see the Pirates try to bulk up their pitching staff. It will come at sacrificing money to throw at the offense, but who cares at this point.
Understood...however...
Hernandez actually puts his uniform on 100 times a year, something Doumit doesn’t.
Anyone want to place some bets? Who appears in more games in 2012, Doumit or Hernandez? I’ll take Hernandez. I might even be willing to give up a few games!!
For whatever reason, whether its genetics, conditioning or just plain luck, that 36-year-old Hernandez has found a way to get his body out on the field for over 1400 games. It would probably take Doumit about 35 years to get to that number.
that was equal parts brutal and brittle to read
with that kind of injury history, I can’t see any team paying Doumit a lot of guaranteed money.
maybe the Pirates could decline the options but offer an incentive-laden contract that would add up to the same $ if he’s healthy all year?
Good call
Given the depth chart, Ryan knows that he’ll play as much as he’s healthy – it’s not like he could get screwed because the FO would rather start McKenry 100 times (I just got a shiver).
I suppose it’s conceivable that Sanchez tears things up, but that couldn’t lead to him joining the team before the ASB, and he wouldn’t start everyday thereafter.
As I said, I can’t imagine that we’d be outbidding outlandish contracts – everyone will know about his injury history, no one will trust his defense, and his age is right there on the MLB website. The biggest threat is someone else offering either 2 years without incentives or 3 years with – I don’t think we could or should match that.
But that’s why I think we should have been kissing his ass the last 3 months, so that he’d be open to a hometown discount.
That's a great idea, gonfalon.
How about $1.5 million base salary and then $1 million for every 40 starts/games played (or something like that) or do it based on ABs.
Or do something like Cedeno’s this year, where you have an option for 2013 that increases based on starts.
Cedeno’s option increase was pretty odd (from Baseball-reference): 2012 option may increase based on 2011 starts: $3.5M with 140 starts, $4M with 142 starts, $4.5M with 147 starts, $5M with 150 starts…pretty amazing that Cedeno could’ve increased his 2012 option 500k just for getting from 140 to 142 starts. (Of course, Cedeno fell short on all of them (missing the lowest by 22 starts).
well Ryan, I'm afraid your legacy will be that you were always hurt
it’s a shame but he coulda been something special if he stayed healthier.
so without doumit and maholm, we’re not gonna be very good next year are we?
his legacy to me
will always be that series where he crushed 2 (?) ninth-inning home runs against the Brewers.
not what i wanted to hear
i have always been a fan of doumit’s. I cheered for him because he was the best hitting catcher we have had this decade. Without him the lineup is much weaker.
think about the bottom of the lineup with the current players under contract:
7. Mckenry
8.Harrison/chase-ss
9. Pitcher.
next year could be very rough.
Which is why getting a power bat
is THE focal point of the offseason
I suppose it depends on what they do
perhaps that money goes to upgrading a different position substantially. In that case, I wouldn’t mind since as has been mentioned, Doumit is really likely to play a short amount before his first injury. Games later in the season probably won’t matter as much if they get off to a bad start.
Doumit had some nice moments and showed promise, but in the end, he couldn’t stay healthy and his defense grew highly “questionable”.
I’ll do well in free agency, wouldn’t be surprised to see him move to the AL as a DH and 50 starts at catcher.
I’d start Sanchez in AAA, with the possibility of moving him up next season. Not sure what another year starting at AA will do.
1b
I don’t see why we don’t bring him back as a 1b.
Clement wasn’t an incompetent 1b, he just couldn’t hit. Doumit isn’t a great C, but I don’t see why he can’t be a passable 1b.
but if you bring back Doumit to platoon with another catcher, and improve 1B elsewhere, you just shored up 2 positions instead of 1.
i admit that i like snyder better than doumit. but snyder’s back will never be the same, and doumit proved that he is valuable as long as he doesnt play too much. a 60-40 split would be ideal for him behind the plate.
If this was Doumit’s last game in black and gold, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to see it. I’ve had a lot of good times watching him, over the years. He was one of the only things worth watching on some of Littlefield’s teams.
Regardless of what you think about Doumit’s glove or durability, it probably doesn’t bode well for the team’s offense that they seem likely to lose their top two hitters by OPS+ this offseason.
Vlad, to be fair, he was one of the only things worth watching in 2008 and 2011.
In 2009 and 2010 his bat couldn’t carry his defense. It’s amazing the sentiment right now, at the end of September, versus the posts before Spring Training.
What I am interested in is this — if the Pirates do not pick up the 2 option years, are THEY not open to bringing him back for less money…? Or is Doumit not interested in coming back for less money?
by insane_sanity on Sep 29, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Vlad, to be fair, he was one of the only things worth watching in 2008 and 2011.
I was going for 2005, 2007, and 2008, actually. If you want to throw 2011 in there as well, be my guest, but that’s not a Littlefield year. Yeah, I know 2008 technically wasn’t either, but the die on that season was pretty much cast by the time NH took over.
What I am interested in is this — if the Pirates do not pick up the 2 option years, are THEY not open to bringing him back for less money…?
If they also decide not to offer him arbitration, then yes, I’d be comfortable saying this.
It’s amazing the sentiment right now, at the end of September, versus the posts before Spring Training.
People were being unreasonable then. They have a much clearer perspective now that we’ve spent a large chunk of 2011 watching the kinds of guys who would have been playing if we hadn’t had Doumit for all this time.
NOt to mention
His defense rebounded, which people were for some reason viewing as unpossible. He had a decent glove in ’09, awful in ’10, and decent again in ’11. Who knows why (aside from durability), but his defense seems extra-variable, and I think a lot of people chose to ignore its better years and focus on the worse.
Actually, looking at FG’s numbers, ’10 was the only year his glove was a significant negative. Other years it ranged from -3 to +9, mostly hovering just below 0.
seem likely to lose their top two hitters by OPS+ this offseason
Well, the Pirates could bring back Lyle Overbay, his OPS+ in Arizona is an identical 128 to Doumit’s this year in Pittsburgh!!
(Don’t worry, I’m just kidding.)
Speaking of OPS+:
Here’s a few of the Pirates’ 2011 OPS+ (in descending order):
Pedro Ciriaco: 106
Ronny Cedeno: 76
Eric Fryer: 74
Brandon Wood: 73
Ross Ohlendorf: 73
Michal McKenry: 66
And finally:
Pedro Alvarez: 56
Steve Pearce: 44
And for all of smack talked about Ciriaco's inability to hit...
in his 31 major league games (40 PA’s):
.333 avg.
.513 slugging
.863 OPS
and a career OPS+ of 136
I’m going to start ringing the bell right nowl for “Pedro Ciriaco For Starting Shortstop in 2012 Society”.
Did we win a higher percentage of games with Doumit as the catcher this year than with the other catchers? I know that alone doesn’t prove anything…just curious.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 29, 2011 10:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Nope. As you say, it doesn't prove anything (but it's interesting to look at)...but here's the 2011 totals
Pirates record based on catcher who starts the game (in descending order of winning percentage):
Wyatt Toregas: 1-0 (1.000)
Jason Jaramillo: 4-3 (.571)
Chris Snyder: 16-14 (.533)
Michael McKenry: 26-28 (.481)
Ryan Doumit: 21-32 (.396)
Eric Fryer: 2-5 (.286)
Dusty Brown: 2-6 (.250)
Matt Pagnozzi: 0-2 (.000)
As a side note: the Bad Luck Award goes to Matt Pagnozzi. He appeared in 12 of his team’s games this year. His team lost ALL 12!! (But before we throw Pagnozzi under the bus, the Cardinals were 11-4 in 2010 when he made an appearance, though they were 1-5 in 2009!!)
This conclusively proves that if we want to win, we need more Wyatt Toregas!
"WHITESNAKE! DOKKEN! NIGHT RANGER!" -- Ronny Cedeño
by Superstar25 on Sep 29, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How many runs per game did we give up in the Doumit starts compared to the other catchers?
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 29, 2011 5:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Are guys who are injury prone "unlucky"?
Or is there something in their technique or skill set or genetic disposition that makes them susceptible to injury?
I don’t like dismissing stuff as “bad luck.” It implies there’s nothing you can do about it, it’s just a random roll of the dice, and so you don’t even bother to look for ways a player might keep himself from getting hurt. If your best hitter was, say, your center fielder, but he had a habit of running into walls when chasing fly balls, so that he was constantly hurt and out of the lineup, you’d try persuading him that having his bat in the lineup all the time was more important than the three or four balls he has an outside chance of turning into outs rather than doubles, right?
Doumit’s had a ton of injuries, as implied1 so helpfully shows by his research, and certainly foul tips off the hand and stuff like that are occupational hazards for catchers. But then, why don’t ALL catchers spend hundreds of days on the DL? What are catchers who catch 130 games a year doing differently than Doumit? What was Jason Kendall doing different? What did Pudge do different? Were that just extraordinarily “lucky” or was it something they were doing, or not doing, that Doumit might learn?
Thing is
On the one hand, he was injured in the minors as well – it’s really been his whole career. That speaks to some sort of fragility – maybe not flawed technique or training, but just bad genes. Some people get sick all the time, and stay sick for a week with a simple cold; others hardly ever get sick, and get over a cold in a day; it’s not hygiene, it’s just genes.
On the other hand, his injuries in ‘11 and ’09 have to be viewed as flukes – the broken foot came doing pretty much what any catcher would (as Posey showed), and the broken bone in his hand came from checking his swing – that’s just crazy.
With Doumit, my suspicion is that his poor technique behind the plate led to him getting more beat up on a daily basis, which in turn weakened him for more acute incidents.
If there were some way
to screen for such fragility on a guy who can wallop a baseball, rather than waiting until he is 30 and determining that, well, he sure gets hurt a lot, you could maybe steer him to a safer defensive position than catcher (which would be all of them) much earlier and he might enjoy a more productive career overall, and you might enjoy the fruits of that for the money you put into him. Although given that catchers who can hit with power are pretty rare, it would be sorely tempting to keep him there anyway.
Yes, that’s the kind of thing I’m getting at: Maybe “luck” doesn’t have as much to do with it as we attribute to it.
BTW,
I don’t know that this kind of thing doesn’t happen. It would be an interesting story idea, I think, to pose that question to team doctors and trainers whose job it is to keep players worth $10s of millions in the lineup as often as possible. And I realize guys are going to get hurt anyway. Sean Casey broke his back playing first base; Jason Kendall demolished an ankle running to first base. Stuff happens.
But when stuff happens a lot more to some guys than to others, the temptation is to believe there’s a better explanation for that than “random chance.”
Thanks for the service Ryan.
I’m for this. Spend the money on prospects, use a league minimum paid catcher.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
what about trying to get someone like ARENCIBIA from the Jays?
travis d’arnaud is apparently the real deal and may make himself known in the bigs in 2012. hes a better all around catcher than Arencibia, but hes better than alot of catchers in the bigs already
Yes, please!!!
I imagine the Jays wouldn’t mind seeing Hanrahan come their way….what kind of multi-player trade might work with the Jays??
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