Should Pirates Try To Re-Sign Derrek Lee?

poor people aren’t huge fans of it either (the working poor anyway).

How many small-market teams succeed with veterans? Well there’s the Littlefield Bucs… o wait they sucked. Well there’s the Royals and Orioles of the past couple years… o wait they suck…. hmm maybe your theory doesn’t work when put in the proper context.

I can’t think of many World Series champs who had a lot of guys older than 32. Most champs have a lot of players between 26 and 31.

5.8 WAR. They won the division by 2 games. You could replace Huff with a solidly above-average starter, and they lose the division. He was worth more than Cain or Lincecum, and the only position player who was worth more was Torres.

Now, it was a lucky fluke that he had one last season in him, but WS teams generally get lucky, even when they’re loaded with talent (also: sign 5 vets, it’s not actually “luck” to have 1 be productive while the others crap out; that’s pretty much the expected outcome).

(not that I’m saying that the award really means much when proving a point, but I think Renteria played a role in the Giants getting that championship.)

And here I thought you were trying to say (analyzing Hurdle’s thoughts based on a one-sentence statement) that Hurdle has fallen under the flawed belief that teams need to have at least one vet on their team.

That is the very nature of psychoanalysis. You’re trying to make a determination of Hurdle’s beliefs based on ONE statement to the media. It’s a sad, sad jump for you to make.

But apparently, you’re the only one who’s allowed to make those kinds of leaps.

If it were me, I’d just see it as Hurdle wanting badly to have a power bat in his line-up and he’s coming up with everything he can as an excuse for WHY the Pirates should get him. It’d be one thing if Lee sucked. You may have a gripe. But, I can’t imagine Hurdle’s actually going to wipe out a talented young superstar in order to play a terrible vet.

Your story leads me to believe that you think Hurdle only wants Lee to satisfy his desire to have a vet presence in the line-up. I think that your thinking is faulty on this.

I think Hurdle wants Derrek Lee to be in his line-up, because Hurdle realizes that Lee is the best 1st base option the Pirates would have at this point going into 2012. If he pulls out the “he’s a vet” card to try and prove it to the media, who cares?

I was just doing a quick look at their seasons’ listings, though I knew many of them have well below 5 years of service time.

I was merely pointing out (in one of the few things that I agreed with in Charlie’s post) that if you throw a pebble, you’re going to hit a veteran in this game we call Major League Baseball. I find it funny that so many people think this is a young man’s game, but even a baby-faced team like the Buccos has a lot of “vets” on it.

Trying to put myself into Clint Hurdle’s shoes (which everybody seems to be trying to do today) and I see:
…terrible things out of Garrett Jones, then flashes of greatness….
…my franchise bat can’t make contact with anything….
…my starting shortstop bunts with the bases loaded….
…my offense can’t put any runs on the board when my starting pitching is going well….
…my offense can’t put any runs on the board when my starting pitching is going poorly…

I’m tired of the inconsistency. I’m tired of the young mistakes. Things are falling apart.

And then a great hitter like Derrek Lee comes along. Homers twice in his first game in my team’s uniform. Quickly goes on the DL.

Somebody asks me about Lee on his return to the line-up.

I would say just what Hurdle said….“we need a guy like this in our line-up. A guy who’s been through the fire.”

I’m just as happy as can be that I finally have a consistent power threat in my line-up. I want him there for as long as I can have him. So, when the media asks about him being there next year…I could say a million things. I could say, “well maybe if our Franchise Player could start hitting those 30+ HRs, like he’s supposed to we might not need him.” Or “holy cow, it’s nice not to have to worry about who’s going to bat clean-up today”. So I pull out one of the many cliches: Veteran players are important.

I just can’t believe, and this is what just totally boggles my mind, that someone that is as intelligent as Charlie, can’t see that.

I also think Charlie acknowledges Lee may be a good/best option for us and that’s why he is surprised at Hurdle’s statement in the first plac

If that was Charlie’s intent, he didn’t say as much in the original posting. He said that because the Pirates have tanked the last 6 weeks, they have no chance in 2012. And because they have no chance in 2012, they might as well go with Jones/Hague and that there is no sense in bringing Lee back.

If Charlie had written what you said, I would have had no beef with it.

If Charlie had written “I hate it when managers act like having a veteran is a necessity. When asked about DLee’s possible return in 2012, Hurdle played the veteran card. How about the fact that Lee is the only viable solution at first base next year? How about that he still has a lot of great baseball left in him? The last thing I want to hear about is how it’s important to have a veteran on the team. Give me a team with the 25 best guys you can get.”

I would have rec’d that. Perhaps that was his intent, but I didn’t read it that way. And then to top that off with writing off 2012 because of what’s happened in the last 6 weeks, was inexcusable. Often, when I disagree with Charlie, I laugh and mutter to myself and don’t post anything. On a few occasions, I go into a tirade because I don’t like a particular part of Charlie’s post. Usually, it’s when he generalizes something, which I feel he did again today.

Luckily, it’s all speculation on our part. The Buccos FO will do what they think is best this off-season.

The moves they make will certainly let’s us know if the Pirates brass feels as Charlie does, that there’s no reason to expect to compete in 2012.

The next part is where I think it is YOU who is making the leap.
"You need somebody who’s been tested by fire" – direct quote from Hurdle. So Charlie isn’t really making any assumptions, Hurdle directly said he DOES NEED a vet. I don’t see any part where Charlie or Hurdle say that’s the only reason, it’s just the only one Hurdle gave in this instance.
Charlie also said that Hurdles quote made no sense as a reason to keep Lee. I agree with this. As he notes, it’s just really hard to NOT have at least 1 5 year guy. You’d have to have an amazing farm system in the very early stages of a breakout for it to happen and your team would also have to be risk averse and against spending any money on FA.

This. Thank you.

Though I’ve got to disagree with you about spending money. I never want to see this team get snake bit (to borrow your term) because of what’s happened in the past. Unfortunately, a lot of people bring up past Pirate failings to try to prove that the Pirates shouldn’t keep trying (not saying that you were saying that.)

That was part of my beef with Charlie’s post. To bring up Overbay and Diaz (even in the joking manner that he did) to try and discredit a future signing of Lee is just plain wrong.

If the Pirates ever get to the point where they are afraid to take a chance signing a free agent veteran because they’ve have bad luck in the past, we might as well pack up the ball club!!

you have to wonder when he is going to start to slip.