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why #toocheap is left?

4 months ago Tiny taiwania 72 comments 0 recs  | 

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Just what the world needs, more Twitter hashtags! And there’s one about Alvarez being fat! Ha ha!

by Charlie Wilmoth on Jan 14, 2012 1:28 AM EST reply actions  

It's amazing.

One speculative mention of his weight from a dubious source last spring (which was shot down by actual reporters like DK), and all of a sudden Pedro turns into a long lost member of the Fielder family.

by biggyv on Jan 14, 2012 3:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Actually, except for the comments about Pedro being fat, and a couple of minor errors like saying Barmes and Cedeno are equal defensively, the article is a pretty accurate summary of the Pirates’ situation. This part is especially on point:

Pittsburgh is dreadful in the field and bad on the basepaths. Its pitchers don’t strike out anyone and its hitters strike out way too much, especially for a group without the home run totals that can make Ks palatable.

The metrics showed the Pirates are a terrible baserunning team. They were still a bad defensive team last year even though they improved. We all know their pitchers don’t strike anybody out. And their own hitters struck out a ton last year, with almost everybody seeing a significant increase over their career tendencies, despite having almost no power.

When your peripheral tendencies are that bad AND you’re horrible at scoring runs and bad at preventing them, it doesn’t bode well for improvement.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 10:57 AM EST reply actions  

He's not completely wrong, for sure.

But the “Nutting is cheap” (while barely mentioning the draft / int’l spending) and “Pedro is fat” (and inaccurate) memes are pretty low-hanging fruit… and lamenting the loss of Ryan Ludwick? Gah.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 14, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, he actually said acquiring Lee and Ludwick was ill-advised, so I don’t know if he’s lamenting the loss of Ludwick, but I don’t know why it was ill-advised.

The “cheap” part, given that there are free agents left who are affordable and who’d be upgrades for the Pirates, is starting to become a legitimate argument, especially in light of NH implying a while ago that they’re not willing to pay McCutchen Upton money.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

That drives me nuts...

And leads me to believe that as others have stated before, NH is trying to sign players to a valuable deal just for value’s sake and not what the player is worth. I wonder if McCutchen’s 2nd half is giving NH any reason to hold out on signing him.

by NastyNate82 on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

You may be right about Ludwick,

but I disagree with the rest.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 14, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s only because you think Correia is Bullington 2.0. I’m not sure there are many/any upgrades that will sign here at all.

by Mr. E on Jan 14, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I stopped reading at the "Nutting is cheap" part

any “journalist” who can’t be bothered to take a step back and try to make sense of the big picture (three-plus years into a complete rebuild, with record amounts spent on the draft since Huntington took over) isn’t worth my time

by gonfalon on Jan 14, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Accurate?

“Owners of bad teams have two choices: spend money in hopes of improving and drawing fans or skimp on payroll and pray management can fix things on the cheap.” Bullshit.

“the Pirates gave Barmes $10.5 million (!) to play shortstop the next two years” BS to act like that was a lot of money. It was one of the better deals for a starting SS.

“last season’s ill-advised go-for-it push in July. The Pirates sensed the NL Central was winnable when they were 53-47 and tied for first place July 25. " How can it be ill-advised if you are in first place at the time? More BS.

“If Nutting throws a Justin Upton-level deal at McCutchen – six years and $60 million, buying out three years of free agency –” Yeah that would be nice, but it is factually incorrect, it would only be two years of free agency. More lazy journalism, who woulda guessed.

“Relying on Morton in particular is risky on account of his high walk rate and almost-unsustainable home run rate.” It’s almost as if he has no idea what he’s talking about, but how could that be, he’s a professional?

He says we are dreadful on D, instead of the average to possibly above average defense that we are. We closed leaks at SS and C while the corners are still question marks. Random, unsupported bias though? Yay.

“Cole is the likelier of the two to reach the big leagues this season, perhaps less than a year after Pittsburgh chose him No. 1 in the draft.” Cole will be in the majors by June? Yawn. More incompetence.

It’s a terrible, terrible article that shows no understanding of MLB or the Pirates.

by Mr. E on Jan 14, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Passan has stated in the past that the Pirates were pocketing revenue money

when the facts came out, he decided find something else to ridicule… Pedro’s ass!

by white angus on Jan 14, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t say I liked Passan. I think he’s a terrible writer. But this column was mostly accurate. Even Smizik makes sense once a year or so.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

"Owners of bad teams have two choices: spend money in hopes of improving and drawing fans or skimp on payroll and pray management can fix things on the cheap." Bullshit.

It’s a loaded way of saying it, but it’s basically true. That’s the choice the Rays faced when they partially disassembled their ballclub a year ago. In their case, mgmt. did a brilliant job and fixed things on the cheap.

"the Pirates gave Barmes $10.5 million (!) to play shortstop the next two years" BS to act like that was a lot of money. It was one of the better deals for a starting SS.

That’s a lot of money to commit to a guy with a career OPS+ of 78. Let’s not forget, the reason he signed with the Pirates was that no other team would guarantee that he’d be their regular SS. Everybody else was looking at him as a UT guy or a 2B.

"last season’s ill-advised go-for-it push in July. The Pirates sensed the NL Central was winnable when they were 53-47 and tied for first place July 25. " How can it be ill-advised if you are in first place at the time? More BS.

I already said in response to Cocktails that I didn’t agree with that.

"If Nutting throws a Justin Upton-level deal at McCutchen – six years and $60 million, buying out three years of free agency –" Yeah that would be nice, but it is factually incorrect, it would only be two years of free agency. More lazy journalism, who woulda guessed.

Whether it’s two or three will depend on when the extension begins. If he signs partway into this year’s contract, the extension might not pick up until 2013, in which case it’ll be three.

"Relying on Morton in particular is risky on account of his high walk rate and almost-unsustainable home run rate." It’s almost as if he has no idea what he’s talking about, but how could that be, he’s a professional?

I don’t see anything inaccurate about this statement. Morton’s peripherals, except for the near-zero HR rate, were poor, and the HR rate will be hard to sustain. He’s a very risky pitcher.

He says we are dreadful on D, instead of the average to possibly above average defense that we are. We closed leaks at SS and C while the corners are still question marks. Random, unsupported bias though? Yay.

The Pirates ranked 24th in the majors in UZR in 2011. They were about the same in defensive efficiency and the Fielding Bible’s +/-. Barmes may be a modest upgrade. Barajas is not. He doesn’t control the running game well any more—he’s about the same as Doumit—and according to BP, he’s poor at framing pitches. He’s better than Doumit, but Doumit only did a third of the catching. Snyder was rated very good and McKenry slightly above avg.

He says we are dreadful on D, instead of the average to possibly above average defense that we are. We closed leaks at SS and C while the corners are still question marks. Random, unsupported bias though? Yay.

With most teams this would be a distinct possibility. Probably not the Pirates, but it’s not exactly a crucial point.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

"Let’s not forget, the reason he signed with the Pirates was that no other team would guarantee that he’d be their regular SS. Everybody else was looking at him as a UT guy or a 2B."

You sure about that?

I seem to remember reading otherwise, but damned if I can remember where.

You may be right; I’m just thinkin’ maybe not.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 14, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

there were a couple reports that the Brewers were pursuing him

Here’s one. As the article suggests, would presumably have started at short for them.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 14, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess the main reason he signed with the Pirates was they guaranteed two years and other teams were offering one. Which is another indication that $10.5M was a lot more than most teams thought it advisable to commit to him. He said the Brewers might have gone to two, but they weren’t offering anything yet because of the Fielder situation.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

what I don't get is

why does Passan put an exclamation point after the amount they’re paying Barmes just after calling Nutting a skinflint?

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 14, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I think there’s a point here, not that Passan is capable of making it. The Pirates are willing to spend on second- and third-tier veteran stopgaps, but they’re not willing to spend on guys who’ll make a difference. They’ll dribble money away on guys like Overbay and Barajas, but they won’t spend on somebody like Edwin Jackson, who (depending on how you feel about Jackson) could make a difference several years down the road. Or on somebody like Cespedes. They’re penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

if they spent $100MM + on fielder or reyes...

… it makes them more foolish than any other team out there.

by white angus on Jan 15, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Carrol got 2 years, Ellis got 2 years. Furcall, Hairston, Aaron Hill, Santiago and Punto all got 2 years. I think it’s safe to say Barmes would have gotten 2 years from someone. The money is a different story but being one of the only guys that can play a plus SS in that list, I don’t think it is out of whack at all.

by Mr. E on Jan 15, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Carroll got barely half the money Barmes got. Ellis and Furcal are still better players if healthy—they both had good years, outstanding in Furcal’s case, as recently as 2010. Hairston’s getting about half what Barmes got and is a better hitter. Hill hit 62 HRs in 2009-10 and did a great job for the D’backs late last year, yet got only about what Barmes got. Santiago got only 40% of what Barmes got. Punto got barely a quarter of what Barmes got. I don’t think these contracts support Barmes’ contract amount.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 15, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

“It’s a loaded way of saying it, but it’s basically true.”

It’s not just basically true, it’s a complete tautology. Owners of bad teams have two choices: spend more money or not spend more money! The same applies to owners of mediocre teams, or of poor teams.

Which means the only substance to what Passan is saying is the implication that the Pirates didn’t go out and acquire “centerpieces” because Nutting is cheap. And that’s basically most of the rest of what he says, too, with extra snark. “Blah, Blah, and Blah”? What a steaming pile of crap.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 14, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

WTM makes an interesting point about potential upgrades

The “ill-advised” part consisted of proof by assertion. Nothing there, really. The “sloppy” quote really argues in favor of the course that the Bucs took. Eliminating Cedeno is apt to make the defense and baserunning more coherent, as does upgrading catching defense.

There is a question. Unless something happens shortly, Lee may find the Pirate offer the best available, as a goodly number of likely suitors are not in the market this year. And it would seem that some capable pitchers who would represent upgrades are available. So what will the Pirates do?

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Jan 14, 2012 12:01 PM EST reply actions  

i really do not understand lee

sure he wants a world series ring. he has a sick kid, pitt has world class med. facilities. nobody has enough money, thats absurd. you see all the time sports figures who are broke, days after their career is over. i think nh takes the draft pick. i hope we sign lee.

by karreemofwheat on Jan 14, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t find it hard to understand. Pro athletes by their nature are extremely competitive people. I think it’s like a living death for them to be stuck on a team like the 2010 Pirates. Lee wasn’t around for the first four months of 2011. The team he was on played like the 2010 team. There are still a bunch of teams looking for a 1B. He still has a good chance of landing a job on a team that doesn’t have the image of being a joke the way the Pirates do.

The Yahoo article is a good example. We all think it’s unfair (me less so than others here), but I guarantee you the attitude it reflects about the Pirates is much closer to that of the average player than the attitudes of people here.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Jan 14, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's overly unfair,

but I don’t like the laziness of perpetuating things like “Pedro’s fat” n’at.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 14, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

i like the pittsburgh area

but lets be honest, not exactly a mecca of culture there. theres different levels of whiteness.

by white angus on Jan 14, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Painting with a pretty broad brush there...

From wikipedia:

At the 2010 Census, 64.8% of the population was non-Hispanic White, 25.8% non-Hispanic Black or African American, 0.2% non-Hispanic American Indian and Alaska Native, 4.4% non-Hispanic Asian, 0.3% from some other race (non-Hispanic) and 2.3% of two or more races (non-Hispanic). 2.3% of Pittsburgh’s population was of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin (they may be of any race).

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 14, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Those figures are a bit skewed

Since it only takes the city itself into account. That area is far more mixed than the suburbs and the surrounding area. If you take all of Allegheny County the non-Hispanic White number jumps to slightly over 80% and the black number down around 13%. And that’s the diverse county in the area. All of the other counties in the area (Armstrong, Beaver, Butler, Fayette, Washington, and Westmoreland) are well over 90% white.

by ElDuce on Jan 15, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Plenty of culture in Pittsburgh

Lots of out-of-towners come to the city and get inundated with the “sports culture”. It’s a shame really. When I was in sales part of my job was to give foreign (and out of town) clients tours of Pittsburgh. It was always the same response. Complete surprise that Pittsburgh has so much to offer. If you step away from Mt. Washington and the north shore sports scene you will find a rich history written all over the city. Beautiful architecture, several excellent museums, a decent music scene and a wide variety of people are just a taste of what you will find exploring our streets.

Talking about the different levels of whiteness is both a little shortsighted and picking at low hanging fruit. We aren’t made up of a bunch of Mayflower decendants.

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.”

That quote truly defines the make up of this city. We are made up of Slavs, Poles, Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews…and on and on. This “melting pot” has created a unique people and culture. And don’t forget the food that has come out of this smorgasbord of cultures. Pittsburgh may not have the quantity of diverse and ethnic food joints. We may not have as many five star restaraunts, but I would put Pittsburgh cuisine up against that of any city in the US.

I could probably keep going all day long here but I will stop.

Put on your dancin' shoes.

by PensFan024 on Jan 15, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Is Nordic an option?

Ovechkin-Leich-Semin: The greatest line in hockey..............................Tee Hee

Proud supporter of the following clubs: Pittsburgh Penguins, Erie Otters, Columbus Crew, Boston Celtics and the best football clubs in the land: Manchester United F.C.

The Manchester United Football Club: Winning countless trophies and making City fans jealous and full of envy since 1902.

by Bradley James McEachern on Jan 16, 2012 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

We aren’t made up of a bunch of Mayflower decendants.

I’m made up of convict brood!

by BlindSquirrel on Jan 16, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

"So what will the Pirates do?"

Stand pat, is my prediction. It will be much like standing pat on 4-to-a-flush, but they’ll stand pat, nonetheless.

by Midnight Moose on Jan 14, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say anything, before NH acquired Barmes, Barajas, and Bedard.

I didn’t appear on the various Pirates discussion boards again, until after the Winter Meetings. After a long absence, due to personal reasons.

And I gave NH kudos for the McGehee for Veras trade. I thought it was very important to have some sort of back-up plan in place, in case Alvarez continued to post a sub-.600 OPS, in 2012.

Look, Angus, I’d love for NH to wake up, and sign either Oswalt or Saunders, before they’re off the market. But I just don’t see it happening, as sensible at such a signing might be. Mostly because NH doesn’t want to lose anyone off the Pirates current 40-man roster. Not even Duke Welker, who seems to have gotten it together, since he was put in the bullpen.

And he’s kind of obligated to at least take a look at Nunez in ST, after selecting him in the Rule 5 draft. Even if he winds up taking Navarro or Anderson Hernandez north out of ST, and waiving Nunez.

So, I think, based on all appearances, Nh is content to at least go into ST with the 40-man roster in place. As much as don’t particularly like the idea.

by Midnight Moose on Jan 15, 2012 2:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Saunders

I’d kind of like to see us get Saunders (and would really like Oswalt or Jackson), but it’s not totally obvious that he’s an improvement on Correia.

Look at Fangraphs’s fancy stats. Some folks have said that the current best pitching stat is SIERA, which calculates an ERA based on the batted ball types a pitcher gives up (and other complicated things — for instance, it includes walks at a non-linear rate because it’s worse to give up a walk when there’s already someone on first). Saunders’s SIERA is worse than Correia’s.

Then there’s tERA, which — actually, after looking into the numbers a bit more, I’m not going to pretend to really understand it, but it’s another “advanced stat” thats supposed to wash out defense, park effects, and luck of various sorts. Correia’s tERA is almost half a run worse than his SIERA, but Saunders’s tERA is a full run worse than his tERA.

Saunders and Correia had the same xFIP, for what it’s worth, and Saunders hasn’t particularly outperformed Correia in these metrics other years.

This is mostly a defense of Correia rather than an attack on Saunders. A lot of the more informed posters on here want to run Correia out of town on a rail, partly based on the idea that he’s replacement level. But that comes from Fangraphs’ decision to base pitcher WAR entirely on FIP, which makes Correia look worse than the other advanced stat. I don’t have a judgment about which stat is best, but when only one stat makes him look replacement level (the pitchers who have SIERAs and tERAs close to Correia’s all have positive WAR on Fangraphs), we should be skeptical. He probably won’t produce up to his (not very extravagant) contract, but that’s a sunk cost, and that still gives us reason to keep him around as a swingman/starting depth. DFAing him and signing Saunders might not produce an appreciable improvement for the money.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 15, 2012 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Correia probably wont be around the whole season.

dont think it really matters too much since, once again, everyone thinks this season is lost before it even starts.

IMO, you start Correia and hope he pitches close to what he did the first half of 2011. you can decide on what to do with him at the allstar break. you cant just throw $4MM down the drain at the beginning of the season.

by white angus on Jan 15, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

They CAN throw $4M down the drain at the beginning of the season, but they won’t.

by Thunder on Jan 16, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Who said anything about DFAing Correia?

The whole point of picking up another SP is to increase the depth needed to get through the season. And DFAing Correia, while picking up that pitcher, would be a lateral move.

I did a post on another board, where I outlined that the Pirates will need 1000 innings from their SPs, in 2012. (That’s an average of 6 1/3 innings per start, over 162 games.)

I really don’t want to break down each SP again, but the conclusion I drew was that the Pirates should get around 800 innings in 2012, from Karstens, McDonald, Bedard, Morton, Correia, and Lincoln. Meaning they’re going to need SOMEBODY to pick up 200 innings. Whether it’s a FA SP, or some combination of Locke or Owens – or Jo-Jo f’n Reyes.

And I’m not estatic about either 3 of those options. Locke did not look very impressive in his 4 September starts, last season. Owens has Zach Duke redux written all over him. And Reyes’ “track record” speaks for itself.

So, I think that without the Pirates obtaining another veteran SP before the 2012 season starts, that it’s going to be a looonnnggg summer.

I don’t see NH acquiring such a veteran SP. But I wish he would.

by Midnight Moose on Jan 15, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

be patient, grasshoppah

still a few weeks away before pitchers report

by white angus on Jan 15, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, Moose, that comment wasn't really directed at what you were saying

There was some talk of DFAing Correia here (may want to scroll up and down a bit). I had been thinking about why I didn’t think that would be a good idea, and while looking up his stats Saunders jumped out as a comparison for him. So I kind of dumped my research when you mentioned Saunders, even though it was slightly off-topic.

That’s an interesting point about the innings, and Saunders does seem to eat more innings than Correia. The problem I see with acquiring a Correia-level veteran starter to try to soak up those innings is that it restricts your options for doing it. You pretty much have to start Bedard/McDonald/Karstens/Saunders/Correia (Correia maybe serving as the swingman, because we don’t need a fifth starter for the first month or so); then when Morton comes back Correia moves to the swing spot (assuming no one else is hurt, kinahora). So Lincoln is stuck in the minors until someone else goes down, when I’d rather have him start over Correia or Saunders.

It wouldn’t be too horrible if they had to give some starts to Locke/Owens/Martis, but I definitely agree that they should get a new SP — I just think he’d wind up pushing one of the established guys to the bullpen, so it would be a lateral move anyway. That’s why the other guys you mentioned are more appealing, since theyr’e better.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 15, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep forgetting about Martis

Although I probably shouldn’t. If he can learn to pound the strike zone, he might have the bigger future of the Locke/Owens/Reyes/Martis foursome. Big if, though. That 4.3 BB/9 was his downfall, a few years ago, with the Nats.

by Midnight Moose on Jan 15, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

our top 6 guys will only average 133 innings? That seems off. Even if 1 was out the whole year that’s still only 160 ip.

by Mr. E on Jan 15, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

If I recall correctly

I projected 160 IP for Karstens, 180 IP for McDonald, 150 IP for Correia, 110 IP for Bedard, and 200 IP for Lincoln and Morton, combined. Making 800 innings, total.

by Midnight Moose on Jan 16, 2012 4:45 AM EST up reply actions  

If Owens comes in

and has the half season that ZD started with, it’d be handy!

by BlindSquirrel on Jan 16, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand why you read this filth

All you’re doing is keeping him in business. Same concept as Smizik. Stop clicking, stop posting, and eventually they will go away and/or be bankrupt.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 15, 2012 8:18 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Passan's job isnt in jeopardy w/ Yahoo

but if you can dig up some dirt on him, please do! that may help the cause.

by white angus on Jan 15, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Yahoo has been on a steady decline for a decade

And may be bought at some point.

I’ve never read Passan or even heard of him and after seeing this post I never will.

Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained

by Kosstic518 on Jan 15, 2012 11:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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