Jameson Taillon Scouting Report By Mike Newman
Newman scouted a start of Taillon's in Savannah and thought he was impressive but "quite raw," "a little short of 'elite' status." Newman saw Taillon as throwing an occasional slider along with four-seam and two-seam fastballs, a curve, and a change he describes as "surprisingly underdeveloped."
Interesting take and contrary to the conventional wisdom in some ways.
UPDATE by Charlie: This is WHYG Zane Smith's first post as a front-page author, so welcome aboard, Zane.
4 months ago
WHYG Zane Smith
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This
is a guy I trust. That said, his less-than-glowing report on Taillon doesn’t really worry me at all.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 17, 2012 12:43 PM EST reply actions
Yeah
We all know that at that level pitchers focus mostly on throwing fastballs, so he probably didn’t get very many breaking balls to look at. I’ll wait until AA until I start worrying about his secondary pitches.
by BillBraskie on Jan 17, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
This exactly
Nearly word for word what I was going to type
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Also
FWIW, I saw way more of Taillon than Newman. Not saying I’m a better evaluator but I got a much bigger sample size of pitches. The change-up woes are true. The fastball command problems are real. The curveball assessment is not. Taillon’s curve is a true plus-plus pitch.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 17, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
In the times you saw Taillon
did you notice the curveball “wrap”?
I have not heard that talked about anywhere with respect to Taillon, and quite honestly was surpr
Also, what Newman wrote made sense to me. Until Taillon develops better command of his fastball, he is going to miss over the plate — especially when he tries to hump up a little and loses command as much as (if not mroe than) he gains velocity.
What you often hear talked about is a pitchers ability to throw strikes and “command the strike zone”. What you seldom hear talked about is a pitcher really developing command of his pitches…by utilizing them well both in and out of the strike zone (barely at the letters vs. at the eyeballs; slider on the back foot of a LH hitter vs. in the zone).
Interesting read — thanks Zane.
by insane_sanity on Jan 17, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
Newman’s great, but when he’s calling Taillon’s curve an average pitch, you know he caught the kid on a bad day.
The most interesting news from the report is 1) that Taillon was throwing five pitches, including the elusive slider. I still say it’s a shame that the PIrates want to take that away from him. 2) Both the 4-seamer and 2-seamer have such good movement. I thought Taillon’s hittability problems might have been related to a lack of movement, but from what Newman is saying it seems like Taillon’s fastball could be a 70 or 80 pitch once he tightens his command. The news about the changeup sucks, but I’ll take a guy with two 70 pitches.
Newman’s great, but when he’s calling Taillon’s curve an average pitch, you know he caught the kid on a bad day.
Well, I saw Taillon on his worst day of the season. He really got lit up, but nobody could touch his curve. He just didn’t throw it much. I can’t imagine somebody calling it average. That’s certainly an outlier among the scouting views of Taillon.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
agreed
I do not understand why they would take away anything — at his age, keep the 4 he has and work on the CH as well — even if it is just straight and doesn’t get much movement, the change in speed is what will be effective.
I’ve often thought about the “lack of movement” thing — Taillon showed it at times, and I thought that was Cole’s problem at times too. If so, is it possible it is these guys trying to muscle up and (mechanically) mess up? I mean…Taillon (earlier this year) talked about having to stay upright more and “pitch down”. If they would collapse on their back leg, they could use that downward plane and the ball would flatten out. Flat = much more hittable. I mean…good movement can cause swings-and-misses, even in the zone. Thoughts?
by insane_sanity on Jan 17, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
Ya
when I saw him, he would only get hit when he would leave a fastball up in the zone. His 4-seamer, when kept down at the knees had more than enough movement, especially with Taillon’s velocity. His 2-seamer, even more so. Like people are echoing, his curveball is absolutely unhittable. I never saw a slider, and I thought the change-up showed promise when I saw it. He had no idea where it was going, which is a tad bit worrisome, but he was 19, in his first full pro season, and the thing had impressive fade when I saw it and more than enough change of velocity.
He’ll be fine.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 18, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yes — a change up left up is a bad pitch. Period. You’ll see the fade as long as it is kept down.
Sorry to repeat, but did you notice him wrapping his wrist on the curveball? Newman is the first person I’ve seen reference this — it is a bad habit, and something that can be corrected. Just curious as to your experiences.
by insane_sanity on Jan 18, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
My
fault for not answering earlier. I’m far from a scouting expert at this point but I didn’t notice it. If you re-read Newman’s article he does say it’s a ‘bit’ of a wrist-wrap that disappeared as the game went on. Nothing that concerns me.
Early on, he struggled to locate, suffering from a bit of wrist wrap off of his ear. This caused him to tip the pitch some leading to more "spinners" that lacked bite. As with his fastball, Taillon’s control of the offering improved throughout as his release point became more consistent and wrist wrap dissipated.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 18, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Newman makes good points
And admits that he is pessimistic in the comments section, but I would have expected an accomplished scout to know a little more about the organization that he is scouting. It’s pretty well known that the Pirates really restrict a young pitcher’s use of breaking balls in his early minor league years. Newman disregards this point and says that Taillon “us[ed] it only a handful of times” and it was “surprisingly underdeveloped”, in reference to his changeup. To me it seems futile to knock a pitcher down a few levels because a pitch he has never really worked on doesn’t impress you as much as you thought it would.
Second, he compares Taillon to Julio Teheran and basically blasts Taillon by saying that “Taillon is the youngest of the group (the top 5 SP prospects)… [but] only a mere 10 months younger than Teheran who has already built up the innings in triple-A to warrant a rotation spot in most big league rotations.” I’m surprised that Newman didn’t acknowledge that Teheran started in the Braves organization at age 17 and that 2011 was his FOURTH professional season (as compared to Taillon’s ONE). 4 pro seasons is a much better comparison point than saying that Taillon is only 10 months younger than Teheran. It was a decently written article but overly pessimistic in my opinion. On the other hand, we should all be used to pessimism as Pirates fans.
Instead of breaking balls
in the initial paragraph, I should have said ‘offspeed pitches’
good point on the 4 pro seasons vs. 1 pro season
While I understand there is some pretty good HS instruction in places around the country, you would have to assume that 4 professional seasons would pack more in than 3 years of HS + 1 year of pro ball.
by insane_sanity on Jan 17, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
And to further expand
Kyle Drabek came out of The Woodlands HS as well and a report from his first pro season said “His curve is a true 12-6 spike curveball, normally in the 75-79 range. He also threw a slider, which sat more in the mid 80′s, and a rarely thrown (not needed) changeup.”
Obviously this is probably true for most HS pitchers but reaffirms the fact that his development is not near what Teheran’s is being he was brought up through the Braves system
When scouting a guy, I don’t think it makes any sense to try to give him bonus points for how a development program might be affecting him. If Taillon’s changeup is underdeveloped and unimpressive, it doesn’t really matter why it’s that way.
I also think the “Pirates limit their pitchers” meme is getting out of hand. Newman’s outright saying that Taillon threw five different pitches when he saw him, which doesn’t imply any limitations on Taillon’s pitch selection at all. Jim Benedict has outright said that they don’t limit guys whatsoever in full-season ball, so I think it’s about time to put this idea to rest. I think some combination of an organizational emphasis on fastball command and the natural tendency of a young pitcher to rely mostly on his fastball have led to the idea that the Pirates significantly restrict their pitchers’ pitch usage, but I don’t see any evidence that it’s actually true (at least not in full-season ball).
interesting
Jim Benedict states outright that they don’t limit guys…yet in the highlights of an interview with NH (here), NH seemed to infer that Taillon “could have destroyed Class A batters last season if he had been allowed full use of his breaking ball, but the Pirates wanted him to work on commanding his fastball instead.” — at least that is now Charlie took it.
by insane_sanity on Jan 17, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
apologies
In the interestt of accuracy, it was Jeff Johnson (WV pitching coach), not Jim Benedict (minor league pitching coordinator) who stated that they don’t limit guys in full season ball.
IMO
the most worrisome part of all of this is that the GM is not on the same page as the pitching coach…with respect to the #1 prospect in the organization.
Surprising…?
by insane_sanity on Jan 18, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't say that.
Their respective comments aren’t mutually exclusive. For one, we don’t have a direct quote from NH, so this is all dangerous speculation anyway. But beyond that, it’s like MCTruth and WTM say below: sure, a guy with a plus breaking ball can destroy the SAL if he throws it 2/3 of the time, but no team or player in their right mind allows such a thing to happen.
He
would have destroyed Class A batters. All he had to do was throw 70% curveballs.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 18, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I saw Bobby Bradley pitch in his one big season, when he was in the SAL. He dominated, fanned something like 11 in 6 IP. He threw about 50-60% curves. The org. was into winning in the minors back then (which is why they ruined Bradley’s arm by letting him run up big pitch counts, like 130 in at least one game). Now the org. is into development.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
care to guess, anybody, where this is coming from?
Player Summary: YOUNG LIVE ARMED RHP. FLASHES TWO 70 PITCHES. MAY BE CONSTANT STRUGGLE TO MAINTAIN NECESSARY MECH AND ARM ACTION TO SUSTAIN ACTION OF AND COMMAND OF TWO POT STRIKEOUT PITCHES. LACK OF CONSISTENCY IS THE ISSUE HERE. NASTY STUFF WHEN MECH ARE RIGHT, VERY HITTABLE WHEN GETS OUT OF LINE AND THROWS ACROSS BODY. LOTS GOING ON IN DEL. MAY HAVE BETTER CHANCE OF HOLDING IT ALL TOGETHER FOR SHORT LATE BULLPEN ROLE. WILL REQUIRE CH OR SOME CONTRAST PITCH TO PROFILE AS STARTER. IF FEEL FOR CH DOES NOT DEVELOP WILL STILL HAVE GREAT VALUE AS SET-UP MAN OR POSS CLOSER
Sup Angus?
I was out of the country all last week with nothing but crazy expensive access to BD. So I’m catching up on what I missed. I just finished the Jan 11 comments regarding the Maholm signing. The food fight you started was hilarious. The exchanges between Vlad and Kentucky was the best of all. You, sir, are an evil genius.
I've been evil
since you was a twist in yer daddy’s nutsack!
by BlindSquirrel on Jan 17, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Also Newman compares Taillon
to John Lackey and NOT Josh Beckett.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lackejo01.shtml
hmmmm would anyone be satisfied with that knowing potentially full well that he may not make a difference in the Pirates rotation until the 2016-2020 range?
Too soon...
to start comparing Taillon with anybody. I find comparisons to be pretty useless anyway.
Welcome, Zane
I just realized – we’re down to 4 weeks until pitchers & catchers, right?
Time to get excited. About the punting, anyway.
+1
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Jan 17, 2012 7:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know if Daniel Sepulveda will be ready for spring training. Guess it will have to be Jeremy Kapinos.
This is WHYG Zane Smith’s first post as a front-page author, so welcome aboard, Zane.
Congratulations are in order, I think.
Hopefully he won’t disappear into the Bermuda Triangle like Mark did.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
I probably should, really. Getting promoted to the front page is God’s way of telling you you post too much.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 18, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Worry about that
when the time comes.
;-)
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 18, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Nah
If that were the case, Angus would be editor in chief of the Internet.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
i wonder where he is, i really enjoy his work.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 18, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
He posted a while ago
that “real life” (whatever that is) was keeping him “busy.”
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 18, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Not like any of us have one of those
So I can’t really relate
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
IKR
I mean, sheesh…
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 23, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
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