If I were GM this offseason...
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 19, 2012 8:27 PM EST
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PrintLike alot of you out there I'm very upset at this acquisations or lack thereof this off season. I thought this would be a great off season to build off of last years first half success and put together a team to contend this year in the weak NL central. Granted this off season is'nt over, but as of now this offseason has been a huge fail for Huntington. Not saying he had to go out and spend a ton of money, but I feel there were alot of sensible trades to be made. As most of you know I voiced alot of frustration after the failure to acquire Anthony Rizzo and alot of people asked what I would have done diffferent; so here it is. This is what I would've done different...
1. Re-signed Paul Maholm (I would've gave him a 2/3 year deal for 4/5 mil. per year. Would be a nice back of the rotation/mentor guy when Taillon/Cole arrive.)
2. Signed Erik Bedard (low risk, high reward. Everyone sees him as a cheap replacement to Maholm, but why is management always trying to replace and not add.)
3. Trade Jared Hughes for Chris Iannetta (Have always really liked Iannetta. Has the experience you want from a catcher, but still young enough to be around for awhile. A high OBP guy with some pop is exactly what this team needs; not Rod Barajas.)
4. Trade Robbie Grossman and Kyle McPherson for Anthony Rizzo (A young impact bat at a position of need for us. Thought it was a no brainer. Would start him in AAA and if Jones is'nt setting the world on fire be quick to call him up.)
5. Trade Kevin Correai and Jeff Locke for Seth Smith (Smith is another guy that I've always really liked. Does'nt have the best splits and is similar to G. Jones but would be a nice addition incase Presley tanks or Tabatas injuries continue. He would see alot of ABs)
6. Sign Taylor Bucholz (Could be another one of those great bullpen signings. Love his curveball. Low risk signing that could put together another season like in 2009. Nice replacement for Veras)
7. Don't over pay for Clint Barmes (I think D'Arnaud showed enough last year when healthy to be the starting SS. We won alot of games with D'Arnaud as a starter. I really like the speed that he brings to the bottom of the lineup. His enthusiasm seems to be contagious. He'll hit more than what he showed with more consistant ABs.)
With that being said; not a ton of money was spent (probably less than what NH actually did spend) and we did'nt sell the farm to acquire any of these players. Our 25 man... Rotation: Maholm, Morton, McDonald, Bedard, Karstens Bullpen: Hanrahan, Meek, Leroux, Bucholz, McCutchen, Resop, Watson, Moskos Infield: Iannetta, McKenry, Jones, Walker, D'Arnaud, Alvarez, McGehee or Josh Harrison Outfield: McCutchen, Tabata, Presley, Smith, Gorkys Hernandez (really like Hernandez; think his speed and defense could be very valuable late in games. More so than Nate McClouth.) I really think this team mentioned above could compete this year. I view the Barajas, Barmes, Mclouth signings as the same old signings that haunt us every year and it frustrates me beyond belief...THOUGHTS?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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it had paragraphs when I "previewed" it?
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 19, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
I had the same problem with my long post....
I prep them in word, then paste to the post. In the past, the post kept the paragraph formatting. Now there’s a “P” button you have to hit, like the bold or italic buttones (Hit it twice to get a new paragraph and a space.)
Like McITT below, I disagree with the substance of the post, but primarily because we don’t have full knowledge of what the front office did or did not do. And also because its assumes that the other party to each proposed transaction will go along with it. For example, just because the Pirates FO offers Maholm 2 years at 4.5 million/year does not mean he’ll accept it.
Welcome to the new dark ages.....
by Trogluddite on Jan 19, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
interesting, thanks!
I could’nt get it to work; even after i went in and tried to edit it. Still would not show paragraphs…will keep this in mind for next time!
And your right that its hard to predict what other parties will do, but I feel pretty confident any kind’ve 2-3 year deal offered to Maholm would’ve been accepted.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 20, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
uhh what happened?
Not sure why the article isnt in paragraph form? help?
Uh
No idea, but you can just edit it. Hit the little ‘gear’ to edit it. I understand that maybe you tried that already but am still suggesting.
On the ideas, I disagree with most of them but they are fairly rational. I didn’t really follow the Iannetta trade. Would Jared Hughes really have gotten him?
I’m scared of Rizzo so I don’t like that idea. It’s good in theory, but you should have seen some of the damning things said about him at the time of the trade in Buster Olney’s ESPN insider article. He quoted an AL Scout who said his team didn’t even consider it Rizzo because of his inability to hit mediocre fastballs in the zone.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 19, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Jared Hughes
would not have gotten Iannetta. The Rox got Tyler Chatwood in return who was a top-100 prospect entering last year. Chatwood has a solid low-mid 90’s fastball and an outstanding curve. He spent much of 2011 in LA’s rotation, making 25 ok but not especially good major league starts as a 21 year old. Jared Hughes wouldn’t have come close to matching that value.
I understand the thought process of a post like this but my only concern is that I’m not totally sure the Pirates didn’t try to make an offer of some kind for Rizzo and the Padres just didn’t like the offer. As I explained, Iannetta would be more expensive than you seem to think. I’m also not sure Smith would have been a smart target considering how much outfield depth we have in our organization. If the Bucs are going to make a trade for a fringe starter like Smith, I don’t think OF is the position where they should look to add.
At the same time, I totally agree with the sentiment that if the team is done making moves then this is a disappointing offseason. I’m not willing to say that it’s the FO’s fault because we don’t know what types of moves they tried to make and were, for whatever reason, unable to work out. While I don’t think any of these moves would be especially likely, I’d like to see the Pirates try to sign Oswalt, Soler and swing a trade for Clint Robinson (if they didn’t have to pay a ton).
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 19, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
agreed on Hughes
I initially left out naming names in potential trades but decided against it just to show that we would’nt have to trade any big prospects to get some good ML ready players in return. Maybe Owens, or even Morris would be more accurate..
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 20, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
ya I tried editing
But each time it would show it with paragraphs in the preview screen but not once I posted it…weird?
Yes. Even I have my doubts about Rizzo, but his upside is worth taking a gamble on.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 20, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
YAY
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 20, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
not totally sure
how Rizzo, Ianetta, Smith and Maholm would have made us any better this year. As far as mentoring , i’d be more interested in a guy like Oswalt who has had major success. i would have been fine with Chase r Jordy at short but understand why Barmes was signed. i also think Grossman and Mcpherson may be as impactful to our team as Rizzo would be ..if not more.
we arent quite there yet and dont believe its time to go big in FA … maybe after this season if all goes well
I just find it difficult to support these type of proposals because it takes two sides to complete a deal and we as blog checkers and fans really know nothing about the evaluation process etc.
For instance, the Padres may have really liked Cashner and not considered a McPherson and Grossman proposal over Cashner. The world does not operate in a vacuum. KentuckyPirate addressed this very issue with Jared Hughes versus Tyler Chatwood. Simply because you think Grossman and Mcpherson would net Rizzo does not mean that the Padres would go for it.
I am in no way saying that NH and his group have been perfect but I feel they are on the right track with how the Pirates should operate. They should operate from the ground up or in other words from the farm system. You could argue that they haven’t done enough in the farm system and I would have no problem with it. I think the first couple of years NH and company weren’t doing a great job of developing the farm system but have since turned it around.
For instance, in the past two years they have signed Taillon, Allie,Rojas Jr., Kingham, Hafner, Cole, Bell, and Dickerson, Heredia (intl FA) and drafted Hursh, Weiss, Kubitza, Kime, Kent Emanuel. To me this is the key, they are starting to scout better than the first couple of years.
We are never going to win the battle via free agency so we need to develop a strong farm system that can be used to fill holes at the Major League level or traded to fill the holes at the major league level. Criticize the FO as much as you want for not developing a stronger farm system sooner, but I think they are on the right path.
With that being said, if I were Neil Huntington I would try to sign Jorge Soler (would strengthen the farm system) and Roy Oswalt, to a one year deal, with the plan to trade him if we are out of contention (if we are out of contention we would get more prospects, and if we aren’t then he would help us win). At this point in time we should not be trying to sign people to multiple years (ie. Edwin Jackson). By strengthening the farm system we could then bring up players in the future or trade for a Latos/Gonzalez when we are ready. Otherwise I would sit tight for another year with our prospects.
It is a very easy concept. I think Huntington and company have faltered in the first couple of years but have adjusted to drafting high risk/high reward players recently. The minor league players can act as both replacements or commodities. An emphasis on the minor leagues will greatly benefit the Pirates in the long term.
to summarize and add a couple extra thoughts
1.) go after Soler (he could eventually be a pirate, he could be trade bait, or he could make it easier to trade our plethora of outfielders
2.) Go after Oswalt. Offer him $10+ million. Keep him if we are in contention or trade him if we are out of it (same with Bedard)
3.) Continue to focus on developing, drafting and signing amateur talent.
4.) Maybe sign Carlos Pena (don’t want Lee because of the draft pick)
5.) Sign Ohlendorf to a minor league offer. He showed promise at one point.
by Cainyoudigit on Jan 19, 2012 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with 1-3
I would say make Oakland an offer for Brandon Allen instead of signing Pena. Considering that Oakland got him for a setup man, I can’t imagine they’d be asking the world for him. He essentially offers a more raw version of Pena (huge power, good walk numbers, unsightly K%, low BA) but he’s young enough he could still improve and has six years of control left.
If they can’t work out #2 (which could be the case) I’d still be pretty pumped with the rest of the list and might support taking a flyer on an injury-case like Rich Harden. The more boring but probably safer innings eater option would be Jeff Francis I guess…
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
this will shock everyone, but i think i would take pena over allen
actually, i would take neither, but if i had to pick, i would go with pena. the pirates have Jones, McGehee, Evans, Hague and possibly Curry at the upper levels @ 1B. Plus, you may have Alvarez there as well. Unless Jones is dealt, is Allen really better than any of these guys? (He may be in the long run, but right now I dont think so)
CY Young Winner/Veteran Innings Eater/Playoff Tough
I completely agree with your assessment of signing Roy Oswalt to a one deal. I am hedging he is asking for $10 million yearly two-year deal at the least. Sign him to a one-year deal and trade him for prospects by August 1. Could be NH best deal of the off season.
Pena
I really think they should sign Pena also. A 2 year deal would be perfect, and adding him would make our line up actually look like a major league line up.
most of what i would have said has been said earlier
one major hole in your roster is that you don’t have a backup SS, and not even a guy capable of faking it.
Navarro
might be able to fake it. He’s admittedly not great defensively but he could be able to hit well enough to serve in a backup role
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
sure, but he's not in this list
Infield: Iannetta, McKenry, Jones, Walker, D’Arnaud, Alvarez, McGehee or Josh Harrison
whoops
reading is hard…I didn’t notice the part about using his suggested roster
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
no way
is Chase D’arnaud ready for the Majors.
kid'll prove you wrong
this year he’ll be a beast
Bees Bees Everywhere
by VoteforPedro on Jan 23, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Jerry -
Thanks for thinking it through and posting your thoughts.
Your “what I would do” is so much better than just saying “NH needs to ____ .”
I generally don’t agree with your moves, but I appreciate you taking the time to defend your position.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Taking these in order:
1) I’d take that contract if we could get Maholm to sign it, but I don’t think he would.
2) I agree with this.
3) Hughes isn’t better than the prospect the Rockies got for Iannetta. Owens would be a better analogue for Chatwood (though maybe still a little light).
4) Not sure about this one – need to think about it more. I like Rizzo a lot, but that’s a pretty dear price to pay. Definitely more than the Cubs gave up, but who knows what the Padres think of our guys?
5) I’d take that in a second, but I don’t think the Rockies would. Neither Moscoso nor Outman is any great shakes at this point, but Correia has negative trade value.
6) I like Buchholz, and think he could be a solid addition at the right price. It might be tough to fit another RHP into the bullpen, though.
7) I’m not sure whether or not I’d do this, but I think you can at least make a reasonable case for it.
I really don't get
why Maholm would have signed with the Cubs who are worse off than the Pirates this year.
well...
my opinion is that a player can accept a reduction in pay from a team different from the one his option was for, meaning that Maholm wouldnt take less pay from Pitt to return but his pride says its okay to take less from another team, especially one in a large market.
by white angus on Jan 20, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
And, if it’s generally known that you’ll be less likely to sign with a team that declines your option, that gives teams an incentive to pick up your option, which leaves you with a better deal.
Though as I said before, this actually means that team options can be a bad thing, which would never happen if people were perfectly rational in the economics 101 sense of rationality.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 20, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
i see where you are coming from
but the cubs have a team option for Maholm next year too. Granted, its over $2MM less than the option maholm signed with NH… maybe Paul needed a team to make a 2 year commitment to him, even if its kinda just 1???
by white angus on Jan 20, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I really don’t get why Maholm would have signed with the Cubs who are worse off than the Pirates this year.
That may or may not be true.
I just believe
He is a pitcher in his prime and he is going to a team that has acknowledged a full rebuild and he may be far on down his road to retirement. The Pirates are a surprising team and they have a chance to make it big this year. If I’m a player in my prime I would stick with the team I’ve been with my whole career and try and go for the playoffs. But hey, that may just be me.
Right, but getting back to the original question, that doesn’t mean Maholm would’ve rejected the offer that FusilliJerry suggested.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 22, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Players who are signing for less than fair value generally prefer to do so for short-term deals rather than long-term ones.
true
For these purposes, two years probably counts as shorter than one year with a team option, but we’d need to have gone higher than 4 or 5 million/year.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 23, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
White Angus, Smith, Vlad, Kentucky Pirate, Epoc
You are far and away the most knowledgeable and respectful Bucks Dugout members.
I am sorry if I forgot someone. Could the 5 of you post or reply to me your 2012 lineup, starting rotation, and bullpen.
Thank You~!
George
Using
the players currently in the organization or does this include potential roster moves that can still be made?
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think
I’m getting extra credit for arguing with Vlad…haha
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
AM NOT
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 21, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
i think its a little too early for me to guess the roster. please remember that im the guy that said overbay will help this team. (i still think he did)
i’ll get back atcha around the 2nd week of April
Probably did some to help the infield D last year
Tough to quantify though.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
I think there are a lot of questions left to be answered
but FWIW as we sit here on January 20, I’d guess it would look something like this:
Tabata-RF
Presley-LF
Cutch-CF
Jones-1B
Walker-2B
Pedro-3B
Barajas-C
Barmes-SS
Bench
McKenry
McGehee
McLouth
Gorkys
Gustavo Nunez
Rotation
Bedard
J-Mac
Karstens
Correia
Lincoln
Pen
D-Cutch (longman)
Grilli
Watson
Leroux
Resop
Meek
Hammer (closer)
Just to clarify, this is not the roster I want but the one that I think is the most likely as of right now. I’ve got Jones starting because I think the Phils start Halladay on Opening Day and he’s a righty. I think the Bucs are going to open the year with Jones and McGehee in a platoon at 1B. Since this means Jones will either be starting at 1B (vs RHP) or on the bench (b/c he can’t hit LHP) the Pirates can’t count on him as the 5th OF. This is how Gorkys makes the team. You could make a case for Nick Evans (especially if he has an opt out clause which I’m not sure about) but I think he is too much like a RH version of Jones. Gustavo Nunez makes the team because he was the team’s Rule 5 pick and I don’t think they dump him out of Spring Training. Since he can handle both MI spots, I think he make the team in the super-useful Pedro Ciriaco role. As for the staff, I was operating under the assumption that Morton opens the year on the DL. If he’s healthy, I’m guessing Lincoln gets bumped out. I hope this is not the roster on Opening Day but it’s how it looks to me right now.
Also, while I appreciate the compliment George I just wanted to point out that there are several other people on this site that I would say are at least as knowledgeable as I am and many that I think know much more than I do. I don’t want to mention names because I don’t want to leave anybody out, but stick around and you’ll find out just how many great opinions there really are floating around on here.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 20, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
dittos on the last paragraph
There are a lot of posters here who I’d say know more than I do.
As for the lineup, I think that right now the pitchers and starting lineup are very likely to be exactly as Kentucky says. For the bench, I wouldn’t be surprised if Morales makes it as the backup C, and if they decide to dump Nunez for Navarro (really don’t understand that pickup). And I kind of want to think of an alternative to Gorkys, but I can’t — even if Jones is in the mix in OF as well as at first, I’m not sure how else they could use that spot. They probably want to give Fryer more practice than he’d get in Pittsburgh, and keeping Evans up gives you a real logjam at first, unless McGehee can put in some time in the OF as well or something like that.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 20, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Evans has some experience in the outfield corners and any of the starters + Nate can fill in at CF for a day or two.
Since our starting OF won’t need a defensive replacement I think we go with Evans’ bat as the 5th bench spot. Whichever MI makes it can be the pinch runner.
ah, didn't realize Evans could play outfield
(which should put paid to this talk of me being knowledgeable)
I could see Evans as the last bench guy then, though I don’t know why I don’t want to give Gorkys a shot. If you take Evans over Gorkys you’re giving up a lot of defensive value, which somehow makes me think it’d be more likely that they keep Nunez, though that thought process makes no sense whatsoever.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 20, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Why would you want Gorkys rotting on the Pirates bench?
The Pirates are far better served having Gorkys playing every day in Indy, staying sharp, in case one of the starting outfielders goes down due to injury, for any length of time.
Besides, I think you’re underestimating Evans’ defensive prowress at 1B. He has a reputation as a good 1B man. Jones, not so much.
So, not only can Evans platoon with Jones at 1B, Evans can also be brought in when the Pirates are winning late, as a defensive replacement for Jones. No matter the handedness of the opposing pitcher.
You wouldn’t necessarily bring in Gorkys off the bench as a defensive replacement for Tabata, McCutchen, or Presley, since they’re all good outfielders.
Additionally, the bench players all need to be pinch-hitters, since they’re ionly 5 of them. And hitting is Gorkys’ weak spot.
by Midnight Moose on Jan 21, 2012 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Gorky's other weak spot could be his Cedeno-tendencies on the basepaths
yes, his D is stellar, but I would prefer Evans bat in the bigs right now
Not sure they want to platoon Pedro yet, but it might be an idea to at least ease him in — in which case having McGehee and Evans up as platoon bats.
My point about defensive upside is that even an excellent-fielding 1B who can play the corner outfield gives you a lot less flexibility off the bench than a good-fielding CF; especially since I assume McGehee can play a decent 1B. But maybe the point that the OFs shouldn’t need defensive replacements outweighs that.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 21, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be shocked
if they are already looking to platoon Pedro. He is absolutely crucial to the success of this year’s team and the next several years of the organization. He’s also one year removed from being an elite young prospect. One bad year (even one as bad as his 2011) shouldn’t drop him down to a platoon player. Evans could absolutely take that last bench spot instead of Gorkys, especially if he can opt out if he doesn’t make the 25-man. Personally, I’d much rather have his bat off the bench, but I just get the sense the Pirates like variation and he seems too similar to the Jones/McGehee mold even if he provides better defensive value.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 21, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Bench
McKenry
McGehee
McLouth
Gorkys
Gustavo Nunez
All I’m saying is, why not find two more "Mc"s and enter the season with (presumably) the first All-Mc bench in MLB history?
I understand
Way too early to submit rosters in January. I will try you all again(memory??) on March 1.
Thank you for the replies.
George
Thoughts
1. Agree. Would give us 2 LHP for the rotation – better balance and depth.
2. Agree – see #1.
3. Doubt we could make that deal. Would have preferred we kept either Snyder or Doumit. Probably Doumit since he can play other positions and he has trade value if he’s having a good season with the bat.
4. Not totally sold on Rizzo, and that deal might not have been enough to get him anyway.
5. I also like Smith, though he’s strictly a platoon guy. Pretty good power and a decent OF.
6. OK move, though I think the pen is pretty solid already.
7. Probably did overpay for Barnes, but don’t think D’Arnaud is ready to be a starting SS – and may never be. I would have been OK with keeping Cedeno for less money than they’re paying barnes, but I guess Hurdle nixed that.
Yep, the signings they did make look like same old same old.
another head scratcher?
The Rockies acquired Marco Scutaro from the Red Sox for a minor league arm. Would’nt it have been better for the Pirates to offer the Red Sox a minor league arm or two for Scutaro? We would get a much better shortstop for half the price…
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 22, 2012 11:59 AM EST reply actions
"... better for the Pirates to offer the Red Sox a minor league arm or two for Scutaro? "
The better question is, “I wonder if the Pirates made an offer on Scutaro?” Since you don’t know if they did or not.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 22, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
do you know anybody who talks to NH on a regular basis?
if so maybe the could add this to the list along with rizzo questions… etc…
by karreemofwheat on Jan 22, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Nope, I don't know of anyone.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 22, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
but don't the r sox only deal with us if they can fleece us?
though we got fort for a reasonable trade.
we did OK on the Freddy Sanchez trade, didn't we?
Though DL tried to lose that one.
Besides the Bay trade, only other one I can think of is the Adam LaRoche trade, which I grade as meh all around. I may have forgotten something.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 24, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
props to John Sickels
I was looking around to see who we traded to the Sox for Freddy, and I found this piece (via this one), where Sickels calls Freddy a “potential batting champion” in 2003. Don’t know if many other people predicted that.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 24, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Besides the Bay trade, only other one I can think of is the Adam LaRoche trade, which I grade as meh all around. I may have forgotten something.
’
According to B-R’s trade log, the only other recent exchange was when we more-or-less borrowed Jon Van Every for a month in 2010. Other than that deal, and the ones you mentioned, the most recent is all the way back in 1993.
For historically significant deals, there’s Pagliaroni and Schwall for Dick Stuart, the purchase of Wilbur Wood, and Mike Easler both coming and going.
i tought they stole wakefield
howevah i see we cut him.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 24, 2012 10:31 AM EST reply actions
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