When is it time to give up on
by Danatural08 on Jan 23, 2012 12:20 AM EST
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PrintWhen is it going to be time for the Pirates' FO to abandon the maddening "fastballs till your blue in the face" philosophy with their minor league pitchers? I think Tim W., Vlad, WTM, Charlie, etc. would be able to put a better analysis on this than me, but I'm curious to see what other posters think, as I sometimes read comments where a player is given the obligatory crutch "Player Z's stats can't be taken seriously because he was only focusing on his fastball command".
It's been 4 years of this philosophy and what is there to show for it? To my knowledge, there has not been one pitching prospect that has seen a tangible benefit & stepped forward as a good prospect going forward, though it'd be tough to quantify. Sure the Bucs have a lot of pitchers in their top prospects list, but how many are based on potential, rather than performance.
A couple related thoughts:
- If anything, I think this philosopy has damaged the confidence and development of many pitchers, especially the ones that have came in from other organizations, namely Alderson & Morris (just my opinion).
- Allowing pitchers to get their brains beat in also adversly effects the trade values to other teams.
- How many of the pitchers in the majors succeed on soley their fastball command these days? I can't think of many, while it's definitely part of the equation, the offspeed mix and command thereof seems to be the seperator between the league average and the exceptional.
- Focusing on one pitch, and avoiding secondary pitches seems like we're filtering the pitchers to the bullpen long term
blah blah blah what ever, we're all just wasting our time anyways (grumpy bc of this offseason snoozefest & too much wine)
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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I guess thiey view it as fastball command being an important foundation. Most pitchers still throu at least 1/3 fastballs, most well over 50%. If you can’t pinpoint the straightest pitch you throw, and one you throw a majority of the time, MLB hitters will kill you. As has been mentioned before, a pitcher with a decent curve or slider could dominate lower levels by throwing that pitch 70% of the time, but low minor’s numbers are not the goal. It has also been mentioned that the fastball restrictions are only placed on the lowest rungs of the system and are mostly gone by A+.
Overall, its a developmental philosophy where they want mastery of a foundational skill before adding in other variables. I would imagine that the focus on the fastball also helps the pitchers utilize a more consistent delivery.
I don’t think that the FO thinks that any pitcher will succeed on fastball command only, but that they will not succeed if they do not have a competent level of command. That is an important distinction.
This response is too long already so I’ll quit and maybe add more later.
Not to sidestep the question
but I think it’s too early to really judge the results of their approach. The whole idea is that they are willing to sacrifice minor league stats (especially at the lower levels) for major league performance. The guys who have been brought up using this technique simply haven’t made it to the majors yet. It’s possible McPherson and Owens (until his lousy, injury plagued 2011) had seen the fruits of this approach as both players have shown exceptional command. As far as Alderson and Morris, I don’t think it’s appropriate to put their struggles on the approach either. Alderson’s problem (which started to show up while he was still in SF’s system) is that his velocity abandoned him. Morris’ biggest problem is that he walks too many people. Focusing on command shouldn’t make that worse, should it?
I don’t think we know what this approach will do until we see guys with talent work their way through the system with this type of teaching. Wait for Taillon. Wait for Cole. Maybe even wait for Heredia. Those guys, coupled with the progression of the overslot guys, will tell us more than the success (or lack thereof) of the Altoona 4).
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 23, 2012 10:54 AM EST reply actions
I concur
Connelly and NH have recognized the Pirates history of arms falling off pitcher after pitcher. They sent a mandate to have all pitchers to focus on their fastball and back off the velocity. Naturally, less strikeouts but fewer walks and potential injuries. Establish a consistent fastball then move on to curve, slider, change up
Forgot about McPherson, a case could be made for him. Good points on Morris & Alderson. Was not aware the fastball approach was only for A+ and lower.
by Danatural08 on Jan 23, 2012 11:10 AM EST via mobile reply actions
List of Pitchers that rely heavily on fastball command
How about Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee?
Bees Bees Everywhere
To my knowledge, there has not been one pitching prospect that has seen a tangible benefit & stepped forward as a good prospect going forward, though it’d be tough to quantify.
Even if it is providing a benefit, there’s really no way for them to demonstrate that it is to the kind of standard that you seem to want.
Personally, I think it’s a sensible strategy. The number of pitchers who succeed without good fastball command is extremely low, and even those few exceptions tend to be excruciating to watch (Oliver Perez, AJ Burnett, etc.).
The whole "fastball command" thing has been blown out of proportion
Mostly by internet commenters who want to excuse disappointing performances by certain prospects. Developing fastball command in young pitchers is a high priority for organizations across baseball, it’s kind of the industry standard. The Pirates aren’t really doing anything crazy here.
We really have...
a tough time assessing the Pirates philosophy at this point. To assess how the fastball command translates to major league success requires that a pitcher goes through at least a major portion of the Pirates minor league system and reach the major leagues.
There are only a few at the major league level we can say that about. Lincoln, Moskos, Watson, Hughes…and if you want to stretch it, Locke. That’s 4 Littlefield guys and a trade acquisition. And none of them have had a high level of success at the major league level. Lincoln and Moskos were expected to be talented coming out of college.
The best grade I could give the philosophy…incomplete.
once again, it comes off as if youre saying that NH's picks should have already made the majors if the "fastball command" was working
even though his top pitchers have been high school kids. we cant expect a high school kid to honestly make the majors before hes old enough to drink, can we?
excluding justin wilson whom is already knocking on the Pitt door, NH’s top pitching prospects, the ones he spent millions on, were high schoolers. they are not only young but huge investments in the team’s future. they SHOULD take their time with those arms. the average time spent in the minors for a high school draftee to “stick” in the majors is 5-6 years, yet NH’s guys arent getting there fast enough?????
Not saying that at all.
I am saying that we can’t assess how their philosophy works out at the major league level, because no one’s got there yet. There aren’t any in the majors that have gone through the entire system (especially the lower levels, where the “fastball command” is a higher priority) with the current philosophy. When some of the pitchers go through the entire system and make the majors…then we can come to some conclusions whether the philosophy is the right one. Right now, we can’t do that…thus the incomplete grade.
The Littlefield guys entered the system with whatever philosophy was being used prior to Huntington’s arrival. And had to change partway through their climb through the minors. Is it fair to grade NH (positively OR negatively) on the Littlefield guys?? If I grade NH poorly because the Littlefield guys (that NH only had for part of their minor league careers) aren’t pitching well, I catch grief from you. If I don’t grade him at all because they are Littlefield guys not pitching well, I catch grief from you. The fair way is to not grade the Littlefield guys at all. And we have no major league data for the rest.
What’s so hard to understand about that? If you want to read something negative into everything I write, go ahead, but it’s not always the case.
by Thunder on Jan 24, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
4 years is nothing of a sample. It’s not even enough to get a single sample. Maybe 15 years and even then there’s no way to know if the fastball academy is the reason for a players success or failure.
totally agree
one outcome has already been confirmed. the pirates farm system, mainly AA and down, allowed the fewest amount of walks in baseball. yes, they didnt strike out that many batters either, but keeping walks down means the pitchers are controlling the strike zone better.
once the pitchers move up and are allowed to throw more “junk”, the theory would be that the pitchers out pitch would be the 2 and not the 1, because MLB hitters can always hit the 1.
The good news…the Pirates low level pitchers aren’t walking a lot of batters.
The bad news…with few strikeouts that places the onus on the Pirates defense.
when
ok let me get this straight,3 yrs of fastball command and no one in the system has a plus change up. yea neil. pitching 101 change speeds and change the plane and neil spends 3 yrs on throwning a 4 seam straight fastballs. no wonder there has no sp from the farm to make it to the show.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
Kyle McPherson
has a plus changeup. You are not correct.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 24, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Say it with me.
“High School players take more than 3 years to make the Pros.”
On second thought, don’t. It won’t sink in.
SALE THE TEAM
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 24, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
and a new owner is going to fix any of that how?
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Clemson should've stopped turning the ball over" Dana Holgorsen when asked about running up the score in the Orange Bowl
by WVPiratesfan on Jan 26, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
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