Pittsburgh Pirates: McCutchen & Offseason Bashing
I saw this on the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Pirates home page. Both of these articles are written by James Krug. He has been ripping NH for years. He bashes NH on failing to sign McCutchen to an extension and the Pirates bottom basement offseason signings.
Please read and comment.
McCutchen Bashing
http://isportsweb.com/2012/01/25/pittsburgh-pirates-gm-continues-indirect-mccutchen-bashing/
Offseason Bashing
http://isportsweb.com/2012/01/23/pittsburgh-pirates-gm-huntingtons-offseason-portfolio/
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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This town is due for some better writers
The post-gazette is tabloid trash, they jump on every negative sports story and beat it to death. Right now its Bruce Arians. I don’t even waste my time. I’m beginning to think that they have to do shock pieces to draw attention to their site away from blogging sites that are offering more quality opinions and writing. Yah, I said it.
Gee...
reading comprehension seems to be at a minimum today. The articles weren’t written by a Post Gazette writer. Smizik linked to it in his blog…just like he does with a lot of non Post Gazette writers.
It doesn’t seem to matter that there’s actually some reasonable opinions in those pieces, but most don’t want to hear them.
Sorry
I know Smizik is hated on Bucs Dugout. The should have known it was another ghost writer by Smizik..
I disagree that he has any reasonable opinions
rather that just make a blanket statement, I will explain my point
It (Littlefield’s team) was not much worse- if any- than the team Huntington has spent the past 4 years "building."
This is false. This is horribly false. The biggest reason is that anything of value that the 2007 team might have had was nearing free agency and thereby on it’s way out of town. So, while you could make a great case that J-Bay was a better LF than Presley (for example) he was going to be gone well before the Pirates would be able to add any young talent around him.
Secondly, please examine Huntington’s last line about McCutchen (We’ve got Andrew McCutchen under contract for the Pirates for four more seasons, and we expect to do some damage here during that time frame). As he’s already done multiple times, Huntington insinuates that the team will NOT extend their only legitimate top-tier player on the MLB roster. And apparently, the spendthrift Pirates have ALREADY determined this. Four YEARS in advance.
This is also absurd. NH isn’t insinuating anything. He’s stating a fact. As of today, the Pirates have Cutch for four more years. Would it somehow be better to say ‘We have Andrew McCutchen and we’re keeping him forever?" Remember that negotiations are a two way street. I’m sure the Pirates love Cutch and would love to keep him around. However, they only KNOW that they have him for four years. After that, if Cutch desperately wants to be a Yankee or desperately wants to make $30M/year, then the Pirates won’t keep him. NH isn’t insinuating anything, he’s just stating the facts as they stand today.
But if the club is incapable of even retaining what little marquee talent they DO develop internally, then folks, we might as well pack up and wait until the Nutting family sells the team.
This is just the reality of baseball to a certain extent. It isn’t a problem that is limited to the Pirates or their “cheap” ownership (and by cheap I mean run a business with the intention of not losing millions of dollars). The Cards were unable to keep internally developed Albert Pujols. The Brewers were unable to keep internally developed Prince Fielder. If you aren’t in a market that allows for truly unlimited spending, then you can’t spend without limits. When that happens, you are going to lose some marquee players.
If those are the groundrules with which the Pirates are playing, then they won’t win until new ownership is willing to invest in the team.
Billy Beane just wanted to let you know that having a rich owner in no way guarantees wild spending.
The FA acquisitions have been beaten to death on other threads so I’m not going to review that again. I will say, however, that (1) the Pirates aren’t necessarily done for the offseason and (2) if the are going to improve next year it’s not going to be because they brought in some stud FA. That was just never going to happen. What the team did instead was try to eliminate any “black holes” from the lineup and rotation (to varying degrees of success depending on who you ask) and rely on their young, “core” players to really drive the team. Truth be told, if Tabata plays like a legit leadoff hitter, Presley is a decent 3rd OF, Cutch plays like he did in the first half, Pedro plays like we all hope and the GFJ/McGehee platoon is passable at first then this will be a pretty decent lineup. If these guys fail to live up to these modest expectations then adding Ramon Hernandez or Marco Scutaro wasn’t going to make a difference.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 26, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Kentucky Pirate
I did not write either article. Your rant should be directed at James Krug and Pirate fans with short memories. You are correct that NH gets all the blame and no credit. The Littlefield & Bonifay 10 years of absolute SHIT is what awaited NH. He receives little credit from fans and the media for establishing a minor league system full of prospects. Doing so with a cheap owner who only cares about the bottom line
Sorry for any confusion George
I wasn’t directing my rant at you it was directed at Krug (although I can see how you might think otherwise).
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 27, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Thunder
Make your points, state your opinion, disagree, be pessimistic, whatever.
But don’t be a dick.
by King Oskar on Jan 26, 2012 7:07 PM EST via Android app up reply actions

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 26, 2012 1:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
maybe
nutting should sale the team, its seem he can’t afford mlb salaries.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
by sweetleb on Jan 26, 2012 1:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's not Nutting
that can’t afford the salaries commanded by top ML free agents, it’s the Pirates organization. The Pirates had the third lowest revenue (including revenue sharing money) out of any team in baseball. Because of lousy (by comparison to the rest of the league) ticket sales, the lowest ticket prices in baseball (yet people complained about a nominal increase this year) and a modest TV deal (how can the Pirates leverage a better deal when people won’t bother going to the games either apparently) the team just doesn’t generate much money. A rich(er) owner wouldn’t spend on FA’s out of his own pocket. That’s a horrible business plan. It’s silly to suggest that Nutting spend money that he makes in a successful business to fund one that (if he suddenly signed off on a $75M payroll) would be hemmoraging money. Just as a hypothetical, let’s say the tables were turned for a second and Nutting were making gobs of money from the Pirates but 7 Springs was floundering. Would you advocate that he take money generated by the Pirates and invest it in a new ski run? People would flip out about that. That’s essentially what you’re suggesting a richer owner should or would do. Take money from a business that is doing well and making them money to invest in one that is struggling to turn a profit.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 26, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
plus they didn't get rich by being stupid
its a bad business model to take from a successful business to prop up a floundering business.
the pirates are on the right road. the question is do we have the right drivers to win the race?
by karreemofwheat on Jan 26, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
in Nascar, there are only about 7 drivers who legitimately have a chance to win any race
kind of the same situation in MLB.
im not a Nutting/Connelly hater
but we really need Mark Cuban or a Burkle to buy this damn team
Because you think they'd put their own money into the team?
That’s not how it works.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 26, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
OMG!
“I just found $1.5 billion sitting in my couch cushions. I will go and buy the Pirates and then spend all my money on blue-chip free agents until I’m broke and have to sell the team.” – Something Cuban and Burkle have never said to themselves.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Jan 26, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Perfect~!: White Angus
The simplicity of your synopsis of 7 teams in MLB with top payrolls win it all.
theres only one owner who spends his own money to help his team...
and he just dished out $214MM of that a couple days ago.
other than Illitch, it will hard to find an owner in any sport who willingly goes into his own pockets to pay the players.
Which
is why Boras apparently tried to sidestep the front office and went straight to Ilitch who is trying to buy a championship before he dies (not to be morbid but he is really old).
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 26, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
ya can't take it with ya
how much is winning a WS worth?
by karreemofwheat on Jan 26, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Like
as far as getting into heaven? I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say it has 0 value.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 26, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
no i mean moneywise?
endorsements, tv, stadium, parking.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 26, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
i'm sure that if god is a baseball fan,
and the meek inherit the earth. jesus is a pirate fan.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 26, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I suppose there’s some significant intrinsic value to be placed on achieving your goals before passing away, especially something you’ve work so hard for. Is it worth destroying your entire fortune for? Eh… All a matter of perspective
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
if yer dead, what good is money anyway?
screw the inheritance for the grandkids. i would go apeshit with that kind of money.
You don't saddle your family with debts
Like medical debts, funeral expenses, etc. I know legally they aren’t required to pay them but no one wants your family to be remembered as having debts.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
Heh.
You’d really figure he’d be content with those four Stanley Cups, but I suppose the Fielder deal proves he isn’t.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
"Matt Cooke and Evgeni Malkin for Brian Boyle, Derek Stepan, Brandon Dubinsky, Mike Rupp, and a first round pick." -JackCampbell
How many brooks would a Brooks Laich like if a Brooks Laich could like brooks?
by wg1of5 on Jan 26, 2012 11:44 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well, he doesn't get to keep the Stanley Cup....
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Jan 26, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
its called capital investment
spend money to make money, if detroit can spend big money then a rich owner in pittsburgh can spend money.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
its called bankruptcy
when you have to re-organize because of stupid shit you bought when you really shouldnt have.
GM?
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
that is only one possible outcome
and probably a remote possibility. Spending that money could yield increased revenues, cash flow, enhanced value. However that is not guaranteed, so the PBC appears not willing to take on that risk.
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
some of it is the market it the PBC is in....
however spending more money could incrementally improve revenues (but there would be risked involved)….nutttings’ actions along with actions/words of front office would indicate that they are not willing to take on that risk…it appears they would rather guarantee a certain stream of cash flow or return…then take on risk and have that stream/return fluctuate
It is good business in the near term; but produces depressing results
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
Not suprising this team stinks
when their fans defend ownership and management that are among the worst in pro sports.
While most every other team locks up a top young producer like Cutch for as long as possible, our GM babbles about internal value. The fact that anyone buys this idiotic excuse is embarassing. Internal value = we dont pay market value for players.
Internal value=we dont pay market value for players...
means its easy to gripe when it’s not your money. NH didnt say ANYTHING about trading Cutch. NOT ONE DAMN THING!
so relax, pop a brewski and go back to reading the gazette
so relax, pop a brewski and go back to reading the gazette
You were answering to yourself, just sayin’
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jan 26, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
wow, did you really just say that?
Your first two examples are the teams in the 2011 world series?
Relax kiddo, your team is entering its 20th season of futility. It has one of the 5 worst major league rosters. It has a middle of the road minor league system. It consistently is on the bottom of payroll rankings. And you think all is fine?
go root for the fuking Yankees
and G.T.F.O.H TROLL
Easy, now.
It’s our job to inform the misinformed…
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 26, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
The whole 20 losing seasons thing
is actually a really stupid argument if you think about it. I realize it makes it more frustrating for fans but you’re talking about decisions that were made by multiple GM’s hired by multiple ownership groups under multiple CBA’s. Seriously, what does Midre Cummings or Francisco Cordova have to do with how good or bad this team will be in 2012 and beyond?
I really don’t want to argue with you but if you want to do something really crazy, you can just reread my posts from above where I explain why a certain point of view regarding baseball economics (namely yours) is idiotic.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 26, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I get your point, KP
But it doesn’t change the fact that the CLS exists. And to try to ignore it, would be like trying to ignore an elephant in your living room.
It doesn’t matter how much or how little anyone in the current FO had to/has to do with the CLS. They knew it was there when they signed on. And so, it’s up to them to either stop it…or step aside, for someone who will stop it.
Because Midre Cummings or Francisco Cordova….or Kevin McClatchy, or Cam Bonifay, or Dave Littlefield…sure as hell aren’t going to stop the CLS. The only ones that can stop it are the ones in charge now.
by Midnight Moose on Jan 27, 2012 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
I realize
that you can’t ignore the losing streak. What I was saying is that that’s a really lousy justification for the current F.O.‘s shortcomings. LonghornBuc called the current front office the worst in pro sports and then cited the losing streak as proof of that. I don’t think it’s fair to saddle this one ownership group/front office/management team with that burden.
Just for example let’s say Ron Burkle, who is absolutely friggin’ loaded, and has expressed interest in buying the Pirates along with Super Mario were to work out a deal for the team. Let’s also say he created the Pittsburgh Sports TV network that he was hoping to do with the Penguins and the Sacramento Kings (who he reportedly wanted to purchase and possibly move to Pittsburgh) with the Pens and Bucs. He finished this offseason by signing Cespedes, E-Jax, Soler and swung a trade with the Angels for Kendrys Morales. The Pirates then drafted well this summer and landed four stud prospects within the first two rounds. However, they were only able to win 80 games. In this hypothetical, the Pirates would be in the best shape both financially and talent-wise that we have seen in the last two decades but the losing streak would still be there. Would it be fair to say ‘this new ownership group sucks, I mean the team hasn’t had a winning season in 20 years!’ or something along those lines?
That’s my problem with blaming NH and company for the losing streak. Right now Neal has failed to put a winner on the field in four seasons after inheriting a wildly mismanaged franchise. That’s what he can be held accountable for. Four years, not 20.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 28, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
I understand what you're saying
But it doesn’t change the fact that when someone…a blogger, a columnist, a troll, etc….wants to bash the Pirates, one of their weapons is going to be the CLS. Rightly, or wrongly.
That won’t change, until the CLS stops.
by Midnight Moose on Jan 28, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
20 years
First, 20 years of losing is important. The credibility of this franchise is next to zero because of that streak. The FO claims it cant sign FAs because of it. But most of all, a bad mark like that should create a huge sense of urgency to fix the problem. Instead, our team is on the ten year plan. After four years of the latest mgt, they are already kicking the can down the road until Tallion and Cole are ready. Thats three years away. And its dependant on a pitcher with a little A ball experience, and another who hasnt thrown a pro pitch yet.
Moreso, thats not all I said about this FO and its lack of results. I mentioned a terrible MLB roster, which is obvious. And a middling minor league organization, which is shocking. With all the time and top picks, we still arent competitive??
If the facts dont make you realize what a bad choice NH was, I cant help you. Or maybe you can do as Angus said and just go to the games and not care who wins.
The reason NH was hired is because
.
the candidate that could have done the job the way you think was busy with a pumpkin and some mice:
.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 30, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, I misunderstood your point
I didn’t realize that you were suggesting that they magically turn around a horribly mismanaged franchise overnight or found an uber-rich, yet financially blind owner who has no business sense and has no problem losing millions of dollars just to appease a fanbase that is derisive and quick to turn on a team or athlete at the first sign of trouble (if you don’t believe me, just go ask Marc-Andre Fleury).
So I guess I apologize for not giving more thought to your proposed solutions of either a) magic, or b) a billionaire who has no concept of how to make or keep his money.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 30, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
cole pitched in the az. fall league.
thats pro ball.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 31, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
i dont get bent out of shape about the state of my team, brudder.
I really enjoy watching baseball at PNC Park and the minor league venues. I honestly dont care if the team wins or loses, but I do enjoy watching the team play solid fundemental ball. I also like watching the young guys come up and try to stick in the show.
20 years, 25 years… dont care.
NH for President!
iron city in Yinzer land White Angus
they need to eat a sammaich and shut the f’n hell up
You're funny, Angus...
in listing all the teams you did above, you failed to mention one thing. ALL of those teams also put out megabucks to lock up other players.
Brewers…Braun, Greinke
Cardinals…Wainwright, Carpenter, Holliday, etc.
Twins…Mauer, Morneau
Rangers…Hamilton
Mets…Bay, etc.
Astros…Carlos Lee, Wandy Rodriguez
Who have the Pirates put out megabucks for?
by Thunder on Jan 27, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
bonds, giles, bay, ramirez...to a lesser extend sanchez, schmidt...of course bonilla
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
Bonds and Bonilla were a long time ago. The Pirates did sign Giles to an extension (buying out three years of free agency I think) and then traded him, but it’s hard to argue that they lost that trade — speaking of which, Bay cratered as soon as he hit free agency, so I don’t think he was worth a megabucks extension. MLB ordered the Pirates to trade Ramirez.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 27, 2012 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
agreed that bonds; bonilla; schmidt; ramirez were gone before current management…were gong along time ago and can’t blame that on current management team…
However, I would disagree that Bay wasn’t worth mega bucks…his market value high when they traded him (in hind sight that value may not have been accurate) and value is based on a specific date.
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
or said better..value is based on known facts and a prophesy into the future based on those facts at a specific date…the fact that he cratered afterwords may not be relevant
He was worth megabucks and the market awarded his those benjamins accordingly
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
and the Mets are oh so happy to have him.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Of course, with the benefit of some hindsight, it does not appear to bee a good contract; just like kendall was not a good contract.
Does not mean Bay was worthy of contract (or extension from current contract) when traded.
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
how would tying down Bay have helped our ballclub...
when the entire franchise was struggling from rookie ball on up to the Burgh?
the deal was actually widely praised but with that hindsight you mentioned, its an obvious bust.
Tabata was signed long term, mostly because he really wants to be here. The jury is still out on Cutch.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I think trading him was the rate decision at that point in time (obviously the return can be debated); given the state of the roster, minor leagues, etc. I was never debating that, just stating he was worthy of mega bucks.
I am of the opinion though, that is an easy decision that was largely predetermined. I think many will be disappointed when the major league talent improves, minor league system improves and they are still not willing to sign anyone for mega bucks
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
you may be right
but if you owned the team, YOU, would you fork over $214MM for a fat yet talented 1Bman even though you have many more holes on the MLB team?
right now, I would say nay.
signing Cutch long term would also clear up this argument, even though Im not sure if we actually should do it.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
VMart's Injury
pushed the issue and Illitch is not buying green bananas anymore… In any event, I hate the deal for Detroit, and I hate the deal for Baseball. And I’ll throw in I hate Scott Boras too.
I don’t see ANY way that this works out well in Detroit for more than 2 years. I doubt Cabrera will get in shape to handle 3b and eventually VMart will be back. So in 2013 they’ll most probably have the three of them vying for 1b/DH playing time with some time spent by VMart at C, but they already have Alex Avila who hits well AND is solid defensively.
And that’’s just for the next two years. What about when Fielder inevitably slows down another step. He’s no Keith Hernandez now at 1b and will only decline defensively where he’s currently “fair” (below league average in both range and fielding). That’s a great deal of $ for a DH that can only mash.
And my biggest question is how does a vegetarian maintain a 275 lb (listed) body weight? Double decker deep fried tofu burgers?
Fried Tofu Burgers
While using Krispy Kreme donuts as the bun would be my estimation. I think too much of this is looked at negatively though; by signing Fielder, they could dominate that division for the next 5 years. The White Sox and Twins are bad, the Royals are young (and all their good young ‘uns are hitters), leaving the Indians as the only semi-contender around. Throw in the fact that the Tigers have 4 of the highest 5 players in WAR from the AL Central with Fielder (the only other team represented was the Royals with Gordon) and you’ve got a team that with some very solid supporting pieces, should make the playoffs for the next 4-5 years. And if they win 2 titles in that time, then…yeah, the contract is worth it. They don’t take pelts off the wall.
by NastyNate82 on Jan 28, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Well this might be a great softball team the Detroit defense is going to be a problem. Cabrera’s 3b UZR is in the -35 range… it’s a small sample size, but I think is directionally correct. Verlander might not depend on a solid 3b, but the rest of the rotation cannot afford to give away extra outs.
In any event, I can’t see much merit if the team what wins several divisional crowns is a perennial 1st round out.
For his performance, Kendall actually lived up to his contract basically, I've written a LONG fan post about this
the problem was that he was bad in the first year after signing the contract IIRC, so had a lot of resentment towards him from fans because of that, and an extremely high OBP wasn’t nearly as valued back then as it is now, especially when it didn’t come with 10+ homers. I mean, he was a 2+ WAR player every year of the contract except the last one from Oakland, and put up a 4.7 and a 5.0 WAR season in his last two years with us, MORE than living up to the contract in those years. I think Billy Beane REALLY ripped off Littlefield in that deal in retrospect. Catcher coming off 2 4.5+ WAR, (3.7 and 4.5 bWAR seasons to be fair) and it is said we’re trading an albatross contract. Last time I checked even in the early 2000s, $ 10 million a year for a 4+ WAR a year player wasn’t a bad deal.
Just read your Kendall piece
Nice work; don’t know how I missed it (must have been busy or something). I agree with your statements about Kendall deserving the contract (without referencing that Pittsburgh baseball fans were DEMANDING it much more than they are with McCutchen now). I concur that non-traditional stats were undervalued at the time.
Kendall really never hit for any kind of power after he signed that contract, though. His rate stats plummeted in 01-02. His OBP came back up in 03-04 to salvage the contract a little (even though his SLG was lower than his OBP in 04, which is always a hilarious statistical anomaly to me) and, if nothing else, Kendall played full-time. I think it was less of a steal and more of a “Look at my guy; he’s back and cheap!!!” and taking the first offer from DL; Beane took a gamble and lost.
More importantly: with the stipulated facts (undervalued numbers, WAR analysis, etc.), is this some evidence that Dave Littlefield was a shrewd GM and progressive talent evaluator?!?!?
And best catcher in Pittsburgh history? He sells BBQ in centerfield.
Look at Manny Sanguillen's OBP though, pretty ugly, worse than league average for his time despite almost hitting .300
That guy never seemed to met a pitch he didn’t like. 2010 Pedro Alvarez had the same OBP as Manny did over his career for instance.
How much a player is paid doesn't determine how good he is though
Maybe it determines who was the best value to the club, or the player who you would “pick” to have at a certain time, but in my opinion your paycheck should have no bearing on how “great” people see you as a ball player.
maybe, but it's absolutely important
because the PBC has significant financial constraints (sale the team!). they NEED value.
then again, that presumes that PBC is being run to win
Littlefield trading away Kendall I think is a sign that he wasn't shrewd at all
The signing was good in theory, the trade was awful for Littlefield, particularly after the two seasons that Kendall was coming off of.
he was already under contract
for that period
by BurgherKing on Jan 27, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
shhhhhh
let him think hes in control for a bit longer
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
i stand corrected
I didn’t see that you noted he cratered as soon as he hit free agency. it’s too bad that he has had the concussion problems, seemed like a good guy and a real talent (albeit with a spaghetti arm).
Ramirez trade
If Kris Benson was not on injured reserved, he was definitely going to be traded to the Chicago Cubs. Ramirez would have stayed a Pirate.
Just to play devils advocate here
just out of the ones you mentioned, the Morneau, Bay and Carlos Lee deals (and maybe Mauer if he can’t get healthy) were all such abject failures that if the Pirates signed even one of them it would have absolutely crippled a team in the Pirates financial situation.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 27, 2012 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
Kendall
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 27, 2012 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
What did Greinke sign??? Hamilton will be a free agent this year, didn’t lock him up? Morneau and Mauer Contracts now look horrible, there both injured and the Twins now sit at the bottom of the league, Cardinals and Brewers have nice stories but they even proved you can’t sign and keep everybody, Lost their two biggest Guns. And also Carlos Lee, Wandy, Bay aren’t helping your case… Out of this list two teams are successful today and has a chance to be good this year. Lets see how good the Brewers are this year. Twins, Mets, Astros bottom of the pit, stuck with really bad contracts.
Big difference between can’t sign and keep everybody…and can’t sign and keep anybody. And we are a lot closer to the latter than the former.
whom was worth keeping???
lets go ahead and use the hindsight button; tell me whom?
you can count Bautista. thats your one!
if the pirates, circa 2007, had the carlos lee’s, the Mauers, the Hamiltons, the Pujols’, then you would have a fantastic argument about cheapness. that would put the pirates in the same realm as the marlins.
but the pirates had jason bay. thazit.
i know in bucco land we forget this...
but they could have added via this things call free agency
…in addition, there were useful players they could have kept such as Sanchez. Not saying it would have worked out or was the right thing to do (what I am saying is it was the easy thing to do)
by dontgobobbybo on Jan 27, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
i understand where youre coming from, and in theory you are right...
but the pirates literally dont have the money to get that kind of talent on the market. their best chance is to grow that talent, not buy it.
the pirates were in the red financially when nutting took over control.and are finally back in the black. but that doesnt mean they are swimming in money.
we all need to realize that the pirates will NEVER EVER be big spenders on the free agent market.
never.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, it's

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 28, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Rangers called and he left via a trade that they'd make 10 more times if they could
They got Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Harrison and J.Salty… a huge haul that contributed to getting to the WS the last two years.
and???
the rangers still failed to tie down their star player.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
so we need to trade Cutch now and get the haul, right?
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
wasn't saying that at all
just pointing out that your point about Tex didn’t support your argument. "Rangers called… Texieria done split "
But would you consider trading him for an elite SS, good SP, Top shelf reliever with starter possibilities and a top line Catching prospect?
my point was that ALL TEAMS trade top talent.
youre turning it around to show the return on that said trade was a win for the Rangers. That had nothing to do with my argument.
and its all hindsight; the Texieria trade pissed off the fans in Arlington just as much as the Bay trade pissed off the Yinz’
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
fair enough
you mixed in free agents with trades there.
I was disappointed with the Bay trade because I was very intrigued by what Tampa Bay was rumored to have offered. And I also thought that Cleveland had jumped in with Cliff Lee at some point.
my initial rant above, with the Rasmus/Fielder/etc...
were all players who debuted with their original team (except Santana, but you know what im sayin)
And all of them were, at one time or another, untouchable on the trade market. And all of them, except for maybe Rasmus, had better careers than Cutch has at this current juncture.
yet those teams still felt like it needed to make a change. Mostly because they feared losing the player once they became free agents. Some knew the player would be too expensive.
my point was this: ALL TEAMS have traded young talent. trading Cutch would fall in the same category.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
*Most* teams have traded young ESTABLISHED talent
I can’t think of the Yankees trading a home grown talent after he’s accomplished something in the majors. The current “haves” BoSox, Angels etc… don’t have to face the hard decisions like much of the rest of the league.
The Pirates have most decidedly not rolled the dice during the CLS, nor have they done very well trading the limited talent they have developed or aquired. These last few drafts have certainly raised my hopes. Although I’m hoping I’m wrong that Pedro may bust. But of all those teams you listed above, they have some history of winning during the CLS and have managed to make a big deal on the Free Agent market.
I'd like to blame the Pirates again
Throwing Brent Lillibridge in the deal with Mike Gonzalez to the Braves gave Atlanta the depth to trade Andrus, so… this is all Pittsburgh’s fault!!!!!
what happened in 2011???
oh yeahhhhh, worse than the pirates. good one.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
now they have a bazillion dollars tied into one guy. that would work so well in pittsburgh.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
in 2011
they had injuries to several key players and Liriano did not pitch to his capabilities. There’s an ugly parallel between Mauer and Kendall, the new stadiums, and injuries. Hopefully Mauer can return to being one of the best players in baseball. It would be a loss for the game if he didn’t.
Minnesota
I think they have to determine what course of action they want to follow for Mauer. He’s obviously much more likely to stay healthy if they move him off C (and frankly, he’s one of the few guys athletic enough to do so). But if they’re looking at the fact they paid him as a C and want to keep him there…well, that doesn’t sound like a good idea.
Cardinals called... Pujols is gone.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Jan 26, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
so did Pujols
but last I checked, they’ve invested enough in the rest of their team to win a few games and, oh yes, win the World Series.
I called the Brewers back
They brought in top flight pitchers in the past: CC Sabathia, then continued to build their staff with Greinke and Marcum to go along with Yovanni Gallardo.
Yes they lost Fielder, but they’ve still got a very competetive team, especially if Ryan Braun’s appeal is upheld.
doesnt matter. they didnt resign Fielder long term.
epic fail.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
i can't agree with that although I'm not sure if you're kidding
when they brought in the pitchers over the last few years and extended ryan braun, they all but sealed fielders fate (that and being a boras client). i was however surprised that they didn’t trade him last season. And seeing what he eventually got on the open market confirms that they never really had a chance.
Brewers also had a stocked farm system from which they dealt from... the system is now empty.
I admire the Brewz for “going all in”, but I dont see them making another big dent for quite a while
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Brewers too...
How can their team be so far ahead of ours? I know the short answer, they weren’t hamstrung by the DL years.
great drafts, pure and simple
everyone mentions KC Royals farm system from last year, but the Brewers top prospects lists over the last decade were impressive!!!
Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Escobar, Gallardo, Lawrie, Hart,… even guys who havent panned out like Gamel, Laporta, Villanueva… or traded like Jeffress, odorizzi, lawrie!!!, Thats some serious homegrown talent.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
and since they were drafted by MIL, lets see how long it took for them to stick in the majors:
Weeks and Braun: 3 years
Gallardo and Fielder: 4 years
Hart and Escobar: 6 years
This is one of the reasons why I go off on rants about defending our front office. They want to build the team through the draft which is EXACTLY what they should be doing, yet the fans arent patient enough even though it takes time for a player to develop.
“why arent NH’s picks showing up in Pittsburgh yet?!?!?” because the average time spent in the minors before “sticking” is 5-6 years.
NH’s first draft is showing some return. Pedro was rushed, but everyone else seems to be knocking on the door. But we have to have them NOW, NOW, NOW!!!
the only real negative thing anyone can say about the drafts is that we didnt get the impact guys from the 1st two drafts with NH, unless Pedro takes off of course. He gambled on selecting a shitload of high school arms and so far no one hasnt taken that big step. Doesnt mean it wont happen though.
Milwaukee built through the draft. Rays, Twins, etc… same old story.
We just have to be patient.
And after they arrive, we have to accept that many of them will not be with the Pirates for a long time. Thats just the way it is.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
great drafts AND strong moves in free agency and trades
2005 Attanasio buys the team.. and on the last day of the 2005 season EVERY seat in the house is free. While the franchise was being rebuilt (or waiting for minor league talent to develop) he and Melvin still managed to trade for real MLB talent and bring in some decent free agents.
The Bucs have a similar franchise in terms of market and new stadium but, in my opinion very little in the way of commitment to both winning long term and fielding a competeitve team in the meantime. So my frustration is that the Bucs franchise has appreciated in value (significantly) and they’ve been throwing off a great deal of cash, due to revenue sharing and the low payroll. We’ve heard the platitudes from management that “when” the time comes, the PBC will step up and spend the money it needs to win. I’m thinking that “someday never comes”. I wish I felt differently.
the pirates have absolutely NOT appreciated in value over the last few seasons, at least not compared to other MLB teams
they are valued dead LAST in mlb by more than one source, including Forbes.
what did the Brewers do before the Fielder/Weeks/Braun/Hart combo do in terms of expenditures? they really didnt try to do anything until their young stud players took off and they built around them.
and lets be honest, cutch is the only one of the “core” that has proven to be worthy of being built around.
by white angus on Jan 27, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
as compared to other teams?
Maybe, however as compared to another business, say newspapers and/or the stock market? the pirates franchise value has increased considerably.
Well I know that the Brewers brought in Carlos Lee before the arrival of the young core. Other than that, not much.
they also traded Sexson for a Mr. Overbay before Fielder took the job
once the modern Brew-crew started to show promise, they built it up by adding pieces, mainly with the aquisition of Sabathia.
I do hope that NH trades some of the prospects, just not as gratuitiously as Melvin did in Millywahkay, which is Ilgonquin for “the good land”
I think one of the most interesting things about Milwaukee is that it’s the only American city to elect three Socialist mayors.
in neils defense
borus insisted on a major league deal for pedro. his client really has not lived up to his own hype. they rushed him because his clock started earlier than most prospects. imo thats on pedro and borus, not nh.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 27, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
yes mlb's clock
we all know pedro signed after midnight.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 27, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
indeed
The initial contract was minor-league, wasn’t it? It took a major-league deal to avoid a huge mess that could easily have cost us the signing completely.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 27, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
The main reason that the team hasn’t “locked up a top young producer like Cutch” is that in the discussions with him so far, he hasn’t wanted to give up any of his FA years in an extension, and signing him to a long-term deal that doesn’t extend past arb doesn’t really do anything for us.
If he doesn’t want a long-term extension, we can’t just zap him with a mind control ray and make him sign one. Players are individuals, and different individuals are going to want different things, no matter the plans that you might make for them.
by Vlad on Jan 27, 2012 10:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But don't you know
that Mark Cuban could get it done! I mean he yells at refs, he would obviously have know problem dumping money from his successful business ventures into one that doesn’t make money and he’s from Pittsburgh (now he hasn’t lived here since 1976 and he transferred out of Pitt after only a year but don’t think about that part)!
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 27, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
It isn't that I agree with the article,
but I have no opposition to FO bashing by reporters. The timetable for competing has been pushed back every year. In 07, we were talking about a 5 year plan. It’s now 2012, and we’re thinking about 2015.
If we would sign some non-garbage free agents, and either save the money for contract extensions (cough Andrew McCutchen) or go after a mildly large free agent (Cespedes will cost under $50MM!) then we would be in much better shape.
I have been giving NH the benefit of the doubt for the past couple years, but when there are great young pitchers being dealt (Latos, Gonzalez, Pineda) and the team doesn’t even make any type of run at them, it doesn’t bode well.
And finally, if you are willing to listen to offers on Andrew McCutchen, and don’t believe we will be competing this season, then why not deal Hanrahan? There is no way his value is higher midseason. The BoSox gave up Josh Reddick for Andrew Bailey, are you telling me there is no other offers like that for Hanrahan?
/End Rant
GO BUCS!
I hate Josh Reddick
I get the point, though. I was actually just re-reading a FanPost from last year about shipping off Maholm and Hammer for Montero… and it was pretty much a consensus that it would be too much. I think it’s too easy to get caught up in being reactionary or acting desperately; that’s how teams end up with Kei Igawa or Jayson Werth.
Whats with the cespedes love why dont we give him uptons contract
Thats quite the discount for a guy who hasnt played pro ball
by tbote123 on Jan 26, 2012 8:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What better has NH done with $40MM?
Would you rather have Yoennis Cespedes, and his all-star potential, or Barmes, Aki, Barajas, Diaz, Overbay, and Hinske?
The latter 6 players had no value to the team’s present or future, Cespedes could be a great middle-of-the-lineup bat, and would be key to us competing in the next 5 years.
But you’re right, we don’t have that kind of money to spend on a prospect. Heck, we can’t even afford to lock up our best player since Barry Bonds, Andrew McCutchen.
"Heck, we can’t even afford to lock up our best player since Barry Bonds, Andrew McCutchen."
You don’t know that.
Do you?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 27, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
I hope McCutchen, (or someone in the system now) ends up being our best player since Bonds
I mean, Giles averaged about 6 WAR a year while he was a Bucco, (and for you traditionalists, he hit .308/.426/.591 with an average of over 100 RBI, 30 doubles, and 30 homers per season not to mention about 10 SB per year. Hopefully McCutchen does that good.
i feel like i should speak for the traditionalists, which including me is like 2 people on here, and say....
all you need to do is look at those “traditional” numbers and you can see that Giles was a monster in black n gold. you really don’t need to know how much WAR he had, do you?
I also have high value for traditional stats.....
….. and I believe that Giles was a much better performer during his time with the Pirates than McCutchen has been so far. Obviously, McCutchen has time and room to grow as a major league player….. and could surpass Giles before he’s traded….. but right now, Giles has a significant edge.
Well, I don't want to start a long discussion, but I will say this
By traditional stats, and taking into account he played a ton of his games in Petco where home runs go to die, he didn’t just have a great career, but a HALL OF FAME type career.
Now, WAR doesn’t think his defense was up to snuff to make it to the hall by it’s normal standards, but man was Giles a hitter, even adjusting for the era he played in.
OPS+ of 136, better than Al Kaline, Tony Gwynn, George Brett, Clemente, Eddie Murray, Yaz… man could Giles hit.
136 was his CAREER OPS+ by the way, for the 4.5 years he was with the Pirates OPS+ was 158
So… as a Pirate, Giles OPS+ was BETTER than Hank Aaron, Joe Dimaggio, and Willie Mays career numbers. Simply unbelievable hitting.
Giles counting numbers are not sufficient
and more importantly (at least in the eyes of the voters) he had some pretty substantial links to substances of questionable legality that many believe to artificially improve an athlete’s ability.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 28, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, looking on it, his counting stats would probably have been too big of a barrier to get in
MAYBE if he plays in a place like Boston the whole time he ends up with a career similar to Jason Giambi and ends up with a borderline hall of fame case, but yeah, it’s only his rate stats that really pop out.
I just looked at Giles numbers with the Pirates; amazing. It’s a shame his career didn’t begin a few years later; that OBP alone would have made him a borderline elite player.
The difference was that Giles hit pretty well for Cleveland too, actually really well
I mean, he hit .284/.391/.485 in 299 games in Cleveland. That’s REALLY good. Why trade a guy like that for Rincon is really crazy.
I guess the Cleveland people probably thought something like, “well, this guy has hit in the 280s with us and only hit .269 last year with only around 20 ish home run power, we can afford to give that up”
Ignoring the fact that the .269 average came with a .396 OBP…
Plus, at the time of the Giles/Rincon trade....
The Cleveland OF was Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, and David Justice, left to right. And that team was very much in “win now” mode.
So, to there way of thinking, they were trading a 4th outfielder, for one of the missing pieces they felt they needed to complete their team.
In retrospect, the Giles/Rincon deal was not one of John Hart’s best, to say the least. But one can at least see why they’d make the trade, at the time.
by Midnight Moose on Jan 30, 2012 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention
He is 26 years old
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
I don't care how big of an apologist you are for Nutting, FO, etc
The Barmes and Barajas signings were truly awful especially at the money they got. Totally absurd.
Totally absurd?
Last year, Ryan Doumit made $5.2M and was worth 1.2 WAR. Barajas was worth 1.4 WAR which Doumit eclipsed exactly once in his entire career. Barajas’ contract is only 1 guaranteed year for $4M. Maybe Barajas will drop off this year because of his age and PNC’s massive LF hindering his power but his production to date makes 4 mil justifiable. You can argue that Ramon Hernandez is better and cheaper but he was a Type A free agent at the time which likely scared the Pirates away. Barmes is also a little bit of a risk but his contract is not big enough to really hurt the club. Moreover, he’s been worth 8.5 WAR over the last 4 years. $5M for a 2 WAR SS isn’t what I would describe as absurd.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 29, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
Barmes is barely 40 man roster worthy
Barajas is 36 years old. Yes its absurd.
Not that I'm really trying to start a long debate here
but you didn’t really address any of my points you just repeated your original comment that signing them was absurd and the front office must suck because of it. I’m not going to retype my entire response but I’ll just try to hit on the bullet points. Barmes has essentially been worth 2 WAR per season as a good fielding shortstop for the last 4 years. How is that barely 40 man roster worthy? Please actually explain your point of view instead of just generally repeating your compelling “Barmes SUCKS” argument. As for Barajas, while it’s true that he’s 36 but for the reasons I outlined above, he could have some value. Would I rather have McCann behind the plate? Of course. That doesn’t change the fact that it was a reasonable, 1-year contract for a guy that at the very least, seems to be an adequate replacement for Doumit…
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 29, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, 36 year catcher argument while extremely short, makes some sense to those into brief reasons
Barmes being barely 40 man roster worthy makes you sound like a little bit of an idiot though. I don’t think there’s 30 shortstops I’d rather have going into next year than Barmes, that makes him a starter, and if you think a starter on a bad team is “barely 40 man roster worthy” when a starter on a bad team is a shoe in to make the 25 man roster, I don’t know what to say to you.
Barmes
Barmes has a career road line of .230/.272/.361 NH decided against picking up a one year option of Cedeno to pay Barmes 8.5 million more over 2 years. I don’t think I have to say anymore on this topic other than to say BARMES SUCKS!!
Barajas is 36 yrs old, I don’t know how its “reasonable” to give a guy 4 million for a player declining in skills and one with limited resources.
Barmes
posted a road OPS last season of .259/.323/.409 which runs contrary to the thought that he was only successful because of the short porch provided by the Crawford Boxes. He is also a much, much better baseball player than Cedeno. Last year, Barmes was worth 2.9 WAR compared to Cedeno’s 1.6 WAR. In the three years since Cedeno came to Pittsburgh, Barmes wins 6.2 WAR over 2.4 WAR. During the 7 years of Cedeno’s career, Barmes wins 10.2 WAR over 0.0 WAR. For their careers, Barmes averages 2.8 WAR/162 games while Cedeno has been exactly a replacement level player (0.0 WAR/162 games). So what does this tell us? Clint Barmes is traditionally a 2-3 WAR player while Cedeno is traditionally a shitty baseball player. But you must somehow be right. He sucks and there are at least 50 shortstops in the game (30 starters and about 20 more filling out 40 man rosters) that could routinely put up 2-3 wins per year. A deal that values him as a 1 WAR player couldn’t possibly be fair market value.
Your “assessment” of Barajas is based solely on his age. Nothing else. A 1 year, $4M contract is not unreasonable for a catcher coming off a 1.4 win season and has averaged 1.1 WAR over the past 3 seasons. If you have some kind of crystal ball that definitively says he will play worse that he has over the past 3 years then that’s one thing. Otherwise, you are doing nothing more than speculating that he will fall off a cliff because he is 36 (and as everybody knows, playing at 35 is nothing, it’s age 36 where the wheels inevitably fall of the train).
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 30, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that the assertion that Barmes is "barely roster worthy" is absurd in and of itself (or hyperbole, perhaps?)
However, I also agree with the notion that the addition of Barmes and Barajas was not a step in the right direction for the Pirates’ roster. Both are aging, past their primes, and likely to suffer offensively playing half their games in PNC Park. At best, they move the roster sideways.
Interestingly, there is a new article by Christina Kahrl at Schoenfield’s SweetSpot at ESPN.com, titled, “Defining Who’s Mr. Average.” In the article, Kahrl describes the average position player at each position in the Major Leagues.
Guess what? Rod Barajas made her list as the “average” major league catcher and Clint Barmes is her “average” major league shortstop. Unfortunately, she indicates that their 2011 home run totals helped them rise to average. Seems likely that their power numbers will decline at PNC Park.
Note also her comment (in the Barmes writeup) “that it takes a certain kind of player to choose to go to Pittsburgh.”
Here’s the link: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/20348/defining-whos-mr-average

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