What If The Pirates Are Done Making Moves This Offseason?
This would be easy to be wrong about, but my guess, from the complete absence of rumors we've heard regarding the Pirates recently, is that the Bucs are done making major-league acquisitions this offseason.
If that's true, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. The Pirates did better in the offseason market than I thought they could have. This isn't to say they did especially well, just that they paid reasonable prices for a lot of players who make sense for them in the short term. The Erik Bedard signing could turn out to be a steal, the price they paid for Rod Barajas was fair, and although I'm not a huge Casey McGehee fan, acquiring him made a lot of sense, in that it reduced the chance they'll get absolutely nothing from third base this year. The Clint Barmes signing wasn't necessarily the best move, given the likelihood of him not hitting at all in PNC Park, but it certainly wasn't terrible. And the Pirates paid little for Yamaico Navarro, who has some potential and might be able to help this year.
Not that Barajas is any great shakes, but in a free-agent catching market that consisted of Barajas, Ramon Hernandez, the two guys the Pirates let go, and little else, I was surprised to see the Pirates get someone as good as Barajas. The Bucs were able to land Barmes, according to Barmes' own account, because they played hardball in negotiations. And the Bedard signing was simply a great move. This has been a good offseason, relatively speaking - far better than last year's Lyle Overbay / Kevin Correia mess.
Unfortunately, the Pirates pared down so much before making these acquisitions - letting go of Paul Maholm, Ronny Cedeno, Ryan Doumit and Chris Snyder - that it's likely that their offseason moves won't result in improvements in games won. There's still no fifth starter and no real first baseman. The rotation is still loaded with question marks. The offense is likely to be feeble yet again. There isn't a total lack of upside - there's the chance that, say, the rotation holds up, Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata break out, and the Pirates get another great season from Andrew McCutchen, and they end up with a winning record. But it takes some serious wishcasting to get there.
The question, though, is, if the Pirates are done making major moves, should we be upset at them for not doing more? If you're a team in the Bucs' position, you don't want to force it in the free agent market, which is rarely favorable to the Pirates anyway and where a wrong move with a multi-year contract could pose serious problems down the road. And short of acquiring a star, which was never going to happen, the Pirates' actions in the free agent market weren't likely to turn them into contenders anyway. In the free agent, the Pirates have to walk a fine line between making short-term improvements and protecting their long-term interests. It's not easy. I do think it would be borderline-irresponsible for them not to do anything else with their rotation, but getting a decent pitcher, like a Jeff Francis, to sign for one year might be easier said than done. Getting Maholm to come back might be the best remaining feasible option, so it's disappointing we haven't heard much about that.
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Your fourth paragraph sums up my view of the off-season. Two steps back, two steps forward, for a 90-loss team. Whoopee.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
really?
bedard>maholm
barmes>cedeno
mclouth>xp
barajas?doumit
mcgehee>overbay/diaz
i didnt give an opinion on barajas/doumit because if he were healthy, i would take Snyder over
both of them.
couldnt someone argue that the aquisitions have indeed made an improved ballclub better?
this of course doesnt count what the youngsters bring to the table, expecially since nearly everyone of them underperformed last season.
Basically, this is a best-case analysis. Bedard is an upgrade on Maholm only if he pitches more than his usual half a season. Barmes is only a minor upgrade on Cedeno, especially if PNC eliminates a chunk of his modest power. Barajas will probably be a downgrade from the totality of the catching the Pirates had last year, possibly a big one. For some reason, nobody seems to want to acknowledge the huge risk factors presented by Barajas’ age, his complete lack of patience at the plate, the likely impact of PNC on his power, his defensive decline over the last two years, and the fact that he’s nearly as injury-prone as Doumit (he’s missed significant time in each of the last six seasons to injury). McLouth is an upgrade, but we’re probably talking about a fraction of one WAR.
All in all, this is a marginal upgrade unless you assume a series of best case outcomes, and even then it’s no more than a couple wins worth. If we get any worst case outcomes, it could be an overall downgrade. And this is on a 90-loss team that’s already at risk of regressions from Morton and Karstens. Talent-wise, this team is still in the bottom five in MLB.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 3, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Getting more than 875 at bats from Tabata, Presley, and Alvarez really does not constitute a “best case scenario.” If I may quote Pat Lackey
Most likely, though, the Pirates are simply working this winter to provide a decent framework in hopes that the young players who failed to step forward in 2011 finally do so in 2012.
Viva Clemente!
I'm with you until those last 2 sentences
To look at the players returning from last year and think that the only likely performance changes are negative ones from Morton and Karstens just isn’t, IMO, clear-eyed. Better/more output from Tabata, Presley, and Pedro is at least as likely as those 2 SPs stepping back. McGehee and Evans also represent improvement over Overbay, which isn’t huge, but is probably worth a win, maybe 2, from very minor moves.
OTOH, it’s not just that Barajas could be another Benito Santiago for us; it’s that, despite all the injuries, we got a lot of production in limited appearances by Doumit/Snyder, and it’s not especially likely that Barajas/McKenry can match that. Then again, no Torreagas/Brown, so there’s that….
Maybe we should give them
the benefit of the doubt. It’s only January 3. I’m still thinking they make
some kind of play for a solid starter. I’m NOT in the 90 loss crowd. Just
too many guys who could have breakout years to think that.
I'd feel so much better
if they’d just re-sign Paulie to 2/$14 with a club option.
Me too
I basically agree that it’s 2 steps back, 2 steps up, but with a young team that only had one guy step up last year (Cutch; you could argue Presley, but it’s not like he’s a key component to any 2012 forecast), you’d expect to see a bit of natural improvement just from player development.
IOW, I’d expect the 2011 roster, essentially unchanged, to have improved by a few wins. The new roster hasn’t lost any net talent, and so I’d say we’re almost certainly better than 90 losses. Bring back Paulie, and I’d say we’re absolutely better than 90 losses, and closer to 80 than to 90.
Well...............
It would be nice if McCutchen played a full season and not just quit hitting in the second half
I'm resisting going there
The guy was on pace for 8+ WAR. He might do it some day, but I don’t think you can just project out from his awesome first half. Maybe in 2012 he has an awesome April, a mediocre May, a great June, a flat July, etc., and ends up right at 5.2 WAR, just without the dramatic split.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him produce 8 wins; I’m just saying that 5+ is already pretty damn good, and you shouldn’t project more, if only to account for injury time or what have you.
On the sliding scale of what to expect from a Pirates offseason...
…it’s about as good as I could’ve realistically hoped.
Barajas, even in his declining years, is better than McKenry and Doumit’s options were just too expensive and Snyder was too injured. Sanchez isn’t ready. Good signing.
Barmes at his best is much better than Cedeno and at the least will be consistently decent without the need for periodic benchings to get his mind right. Another good signing.
Bedard has pitched his whole career in the AL and still has managed a career average of over 8 K/9. He has the potential to absolutely mow through the NL. That said, who knows about his health? If Bedard can match his performance last year—2.4 fWAR put up over the course of 129 innings—that’s a huge win the Bucs.
Of course, here’s Bedard’s major league innings pitched for 2008, 2009 and 2010: 81, 83 and 0. Maybe he turns back into the 180 inning pitcher he was for the Orioles for a while, but I wouldn’t bet on it at this point. And that points to the biggest offseason disappointment: alarming lack of starting pitching depth.
Morton has said he intends to be ready for opening day and taking him at his word, it looks like they’re committed to a rotation of Bedard, Morton, Karstens, JMac and letting Correia/Lincoln fight it out for the 5th starter with both seeing time in the rotation if (when) Bedard goes down.
Reading the tea leaves, it seems that rotation spots that need filled due to injury or ineffectiveness will be filled by giving guys like Locke and Rudy Owens big league chances with maybe a Kyle McPherson appearance if he whips shit out of AAA in April and May.
There’s a good argument to be made that with the signings of Barmes & Barajas weighed against the current rotation murkiness that the Bucs are going a “non-punt punt” route for 2012. (upgrades made where they could for reasonable prices, but depending on a potentially injury plagued rotation plugged by rookies.)
If I had the off-season to do over again, I’d exercise Maholm’s option and I’m not sure I’d do much of anything differently. Not because it’s particularly inspiring or hopeful, but because it’s the best that can be hoped for on the whole. Yes, $9MM for Paul looks like it’d be an overpayment given the (lack of) market right now, but it’s not like that they’re putting that money towards anything else; I doubt it would’ve stopped them from signing Barmes, Barajas and Bedard.
Who knows. If Tabata & Pedro break out & combine for 7 WAR, McCutchen becomes a legit superstar and MVP candidate who puts up 7 WAR by himself, if the planets align and Bedard throws 150+ innings, if Morton and JMac keep trending upward……..that’s an 80-84 win team.
On the other hand, Tabata could get hurt & only play 80 games, Pedro could continue his downward spiral and Bedard blows his shoulder into 50 million pieces his first pitch of the season.
I realize I’m talking in circles here, but I think that’s an accurate reflection of the team in many ways, if that makes any sense.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
+1 to Raybin and bucdaddy
If they’re done making moves, the one obvious thing they could’ve done to make the team better would’ve been to pick up Maholm’s option. I’m not seeing a lot else out there at first, and another starter is what I really want.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 3, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
it would be difficult for Pedro
to continue his spiral downward, at the moment he’s pretty low.
I’m pulling for him though!
by BlindSquirrel on Jan 3, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Guessing they aren't done.
I’m hoping they haven’t stopped the search for a 1st baseman. That still seems like a pressing need and one that could be filled in the trade market, if not free agency.
I think that once we see where Prince lands, if D-Bell plays again, etc. etc. then we’ll be able to evaluate things a bit more clearly.
Not to throw names around, as this has been discussed in other threads, but the Padres should absolutely be on the radar. Blanks, Rizzo, or Alonso are all guys that this team could go into Spring Training as the Pirates starting 1B.
Hah! Nice catch.
Might as well bring Matt Morris back while we’re at it.
Operation: Shutdown
Is still a popular (and one of my favorite) phrases/jokes to make with my friends. Well, the 2-3 who get what I mean.
We've addressed the top priorities and
now we have entered into the “internal valuation” period where we won’t add another player unless they meet the criteria of a good deal. That’s my guess at least
Waiting out the market
Guessing, I would say that NH wanted/wants both Maholm and Derrek Lee back… just not for the prices he was looking at. He guessed correctly that there wouldn’t be much market for either and is waiting for their asking prices to go down. It sounds so much more hardball when put that way, but in the grand scheme of baseball, if he were totally wrong, neither player is a franchise difference maker and both would have signed for more than the Pirates could afford. If by some provenance both sign cheap deals with other teams, NH will take some heat, but this isn’t a job-threatening loss.
Conversely, failing to get an extension done with Cutch may turn out to be a job-threatening kind of loss. I think those are the only three things I could see the Pirates doing the rest of this offseason. Acquiring a small piece (longshot bullpen/rotation reclamation project, former prospect whose star has fallen, bench guys with a shot at contributing… none of these would surprise me, either.
I'm disappointed
An intelligent trade to markedly upgrade the major league product is needed. That it hasn’t happened yet is high discouraging and suggests it is unlikely to happen, but I remain hopeful.
Signing Lee and a Maholm-type would certainly be appropriate and reasonable and upgrade the big league product a good deal, but the lack of creativity and intelligent boldness is disheartening.
Good day.
Complete absence of rumors
So how many of the Pirates off-season moves were rumored before they happened. I can only think of the Barmes signing as having any speculation prior to it happening.
So the complete absence of rumors really is insignificant.
I still think it was the right thing to do letting Maholm walk. He is still a free agent and it would surprise me if he got more than $7 million per year.
I'd be disappointed
because they are still shy of the amount of money they said they could spend on next year’s roster and I think they have the financial ability to sign another player (or maybe even 2) that could make 2012 a much better club. If I had my ideal finish to this offseason, I’d love to see the Pirates land either Chen or Maholm to fill out the rotation and Carlos Pena or D-Lee to start at 1B. Now if Chen and Maholm both end up signing elsewhere for 3 or 4 years at $8M per year and Lee and Pena both get 2/20+ deals, then I can’t fault the team for not bringing them in. What will upset me, though, is if we see them signing elsewhere for pennies on the dollar. For the moment, I’d be willing to give the Pirates the benefit of the doubt in that I expect they’re still hoping to improve 1B and the rotation if the price is right. If it ends up that they fail to improve these glaring areas of need when there were appealing and affordable options out there, I’d be pissed.
Two thoughts
The 1b situation, regardless of whether or not the Pirates are involved, must wait til Fielder signs somewhere.
Second, I would rather the Pirates allocate money to signing the Cuban Jorge Soler and Chen then the other options.
Down, down in the basement
we hear the sound of machines.
by bucdaddy on Jan 3, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A complete lack of news except for the report from Dejan saying the Pirates have money and are prioritizing finding another starting pitcher. And considering not that many of the lower tier starting pitchers have signed yet, I’m going to believe they’ll sign another starter and hold off on panicking.
So far I’m very happy, although an upgrade at 1B isn’t asking too much.
I disagree with the idea that they don’t have a 5th starter. They have nothing but 5th starters. Plus Erik Bedard, who is a solid 2 or 3, except when is arm is detached from his shoulder, which is most of the time. Correia stinks, but he’s a borderline-acceptable big league starter. If they can somehow swing Oswalt or Kuroda or someone, great. But if they’re just bumping Correia for someone only marginally better, I’d prefer they didn’t bother.
I'm also not convinced they're done
As has been said, 1Bs are on lockdown until Fielder signs somewhere; there’s at least a chance that NH makes a move there before February.
Same basic deal with Maholm and SPs in general: there are a lot of unsigned SPs in our price/willingness to sign range (Maholm, Francis, conceivably Oswalt or Jackson), and they have to land somewhere.
I can live with a Jones/whoever platoon at 1B, and while I’d like to see a serious SP added, even another Bedard-like deal to a guy looking to recover value would make me feel a bit better about ‘12. As I’ve said, I don’t expect enough stars to align to make it a contending year, but I’d like to be in a position where, if the stars do align, the outcome is actually good (as in, in the conversation past the trade deadline, and finishing above .500). To me, nothing would be more frustrating than getting 14 WAR from Cutch, Tabata, and Pedro, only to see 0 WAR coming from 1B and the 5th SP, resulting in a blah, 79-win season.
Off-topic, but . . .
Has anybody else noticed the Coco Crisp thread at MLBTR? It’s a long series of posts about how he’s decided where to sign but we don’t know where yet, maybe we’ll hear the big news tomorrow, etc. His agent apparently broke the momentous news before telling the lucky team. Coco Fucking Crisp? You’d think he was Pujols.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
With the Morman Tabernacle Choir singing in the background and a bunch of crippled kids in the front row of the audience.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 3, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yikes....
Go to MLB.com site and get a look at that do on Crisp
If they are done, no big deal.
There isn’t that much left that is attractive to spend money on. I’d be cool taking a flier on some starters so that we could flip them at the deadline, and I’d include Maholm in that group if he would come back at a discount.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I hope they're not done...
Because all that NH has done so far is to maximize expenditures and not improve the team. Given the current squad we’re looking at another 90-loss season or worse. Have expectations fallen so low that people are content with the current roster?
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jan 3, 2012 6:57 PM EST reply actions
jojo to the reyescue
Now, the offseason is a success
I'm convinced
That management doesn’t believe, like most of us, that we won’t really contend until some of our young pitching starts to arrive. Until then, these are the offseasons we will get.
And I’m fine with that.

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