Cubs Get Rizzo
No big deal. It's not like they got Lars.
5 months ago
WTM
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Theo and Jed...
…are gettin’ R-to-the-izzo, been really b-to-the-izzay
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
If Rizzo's going to play in the NL Central...
..it might as well be for the Cubs. Can’t think of another team in that division absolutely starving for a young, high ceiling first baseman to help rebuild.
Nope. Certainly can’t think of any at all.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Trying to think of a Bucs equivalent
Maybe Meek and Hernandez based on this description from MLBTR:
Cashner, 25, has a 4.29 ERA with 8.0 K/9 and 4.7 BB/9 in 65 innings over the course of two seasons with the Cubs. The 2008 first rounder spent much of the 2011 season on the 60-day disabled list with a strained right rotator cuff, but returned to make six appearances in September. He’ll be under team control through 2016. It sounds as though the Padres consider Cashner an eighth inning option for now and will consider moving him to the rotation at some point, MLB.com’s Corey Brock tweets.
Na, 20, has a .244/.335/.284 line in 519 plate appearances over the course of two seasons in the lower levels of the minor leagues. He has played all three outfield positions professionally and spent most of his time in center.
Although if the Padres were after an 8th inning guy they could think about moving to the rotation, they wouldn’t have been as interested in Meek.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Digging a wee bit deeper...
…I may have overshot the mark. Seems like an equivalent offer of the Bucs would’ve been something like Chris Leroux/Jared Hughes and Mel Rojas.
Upping the outfield prospect to someone like Gorkys might’ve sealed the deal. Damn.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Cashner
Is much more highly regarded than Meek. Young, hard throwing, potential starter that could be compared to a Kyle Drabek in my book. Yes, he was hurt last year but the Cubs had thought he had ace potential. I know nothing about the other guy.
Rotator injury is nothing to sneeze at and it says the Padres plan to use him in the pen. I’m not sure how a Lincoln, Morris, Rojas deal doesn’t top it and still come out as a huge win for us.
I agree
I see a failed starter who’s found a niche as an effective reliever (which is all relievers, really) and who might be a bounce back candidate to the rotation with the right coaching and a 20 year old light hitting CF prospect.
Sounds exactly like Leroux/Hughes/Morris and Mel Rojas. A Brad Lincoln type throw in might’ve tipped the balance.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Maybe a failed starter
I still think he is more likely to reach his potential than the 3 we mentioned for the Bucs.
I don't think that deal is enough for Rizzo
You have one guy already in the pen (Morris) another likely to end up there (Lincoln) and the best piece is a guy who is going to be 22 in May with some serious holes in his game (Rojas).
Except they already traded Rizzo for a guy in the pen and a guy with serious holes in his game, while also throwing in their 3rd rounder from last year
True
But I think Cashner is better than what is being offered above by the Bucs, because I don’t think any of those guys have the potential to be difference makers. Cashner, even if he doesn’t start, could be a big-time closer.
With our eyes closed..
www.drstrangeglove.com
by nycbucsfan on Jan 6, 2012 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lincoln, perhaps? I certainly would’ve done that.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
"Matt Cooke and Evgeni Malkin for Brian Boyle, Derek Stepan, Brandon Dubinsky, Mike Rupp, and a first round pick." -JackCampbell
How many brooks would a Brooks Laich like if a Brooks Laich could like brooks?
Wow
Cubs go a steal in my book. Rizzo destroyed AAA pitchers last year I thought he would transition better to the majors than he did but still you got to like his potential. Pirates could have packaged Allie with another mid level pitcher or position player prospect and I would have been fine with it. Rizzo is only 22 and controlled up until 2017. Sucks.
Weirdest thing about this deal
Cates is probably a better prospect than Na. He was an above slot 3rd rounder in 2010. Na did get a pretty good bonus out of Korea, but he’s still in that all tools, maybe not a baseball player stage.
Man, Epstein and Hoyer have officially replaced Hendry.
It’s going to be a long decade.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
Nice deal for the Cubs. I was worried something like this would happen – Rizzo is the real deal.
Whole lot of pressure on Grandal now to try and turn this sequence around for SD, since Latos > Cashner and Rizzo > Alonso.
I've been very worried about this...
That’s why I was posting about going after Rizzo, Alonso with some urgency a couple weeks back. I really thought NH would come thru…it’s a shame.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
They're pretty equal in value.
Whatever Rizzo lacks in AVG, OBP, and pitch recognition in comparison to Alonso; I think he will make up for in balls hit over the fence compared to Alonso.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Steal for the Cubs
But at least that means they should be out on prince. Nice to get him out of the division
by Hurdle'd on Jan 6, 2012 4:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm irate!
This is ridicolous. We by far could’ve offered a much better package without giving up Taillon, Cole. I posted awhile back about questioning whether NH was even inquiring about Rizzo. This is proof that he did’nt even do his due diligence. There was no reason Rizzo should’nt be in a Pirates this year. I’m disgusted. And the worst part? Were still looking for f***ing utility infielders!!! But we have glaring holes in other positions. I hope Rizzo hits 40 HRs this year. 20 of them against the Pirates. 18 of them at PNC park. 17 of them over the Clemente wall. I’ve always been a suppoerter of NH. But I hope this is his last year.
If it's spring training and we haven't made an obvious upgrade to current at 1B...
… then I share your feelings.
This off-season is still far from shaking itself out.
Having said that, I would have been a happy man to have landed Rizzo.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
It's just unbelievably frustrating
When it feels like we are one big bat and one more solid starting pitcher away from being able to compete and management won’t go out and make a move. NH is over valueing his prospects at this point. That’s going to be his demise. Taillon, Cole, Bell are off limits but as far as I’m concerned you have to be willing to part with anyone else in the system at this point.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe NH senses that we're close this year with a weaker division too
and would prefer to throw what he can at a proven commodity over a 22 year old prospect.
The Fielder situation could be interesting depending where he lands… a lot of his potential landing spots have guys similar to Rizzo.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
a lot of his potential landing spots have guys similar to Rizzo.
Example?
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
I think we are more than a bat and a SP away...
from being a really good baseball team, I agree that those two elements could make the Bucs an interesting and competitive team in what is shaping up to be a really bad NL Central in 2012.
But then again, instead of intelligently seizing this opportunity with a Rizzo-like move and Maholm, perhaps it is better to wait for the wide open window of opportunity with our one true star caliber player (Cutch) to overlap with the windows of the only three other star-caliber players in the organization (Taillon, Cole & Bell). That is a fine, measured plan for success! At this rate, everything should come together for a legitimate 2 year windown of opportunity in roughly 2018. Can’t wait.
Good day.
When it feels like we are one big bat and one more solid starting pitcher away from being able to compete
One big bat and one more solid starting pitcher would probably get us up to 76 or 77 wins.
I understand the sentiment, though.
Oh, I think another big bat and another solid SP would net more than 76/77 wins.
Once you factor in the natural progression of the young core, like McCutchen, Tabata, Presley, and Walker.
I have the Pirates projected to win 76, in 2012, with their current/expected roster. Add, let’s say, Carlos Pena and Roy Oswalt to the current/expected roster, and the projected win total jumps into the low-to-mid 80’s.
Which might compete, depending on how healthy the Cards can stay, and how the Reds pitch.
by Midnight Moose on Jan 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
how do you know that?
at all. Why do people ASSUME that NH doesn’t realize that The Angels and Padres have surplus 1B. They even said that at Piratesfest chief
I'm sure he knows it
It’s his unwillingness to do anything about it that irks me right now.
Yes the Bucs could have been in on Rizzo. Let’s say they were. That means they were unable to do better than Cashner and Na, which they have the ability to do without sacrificing one really important prospect or current roster player.
They have a huge, giant, yawning, gaping hole at 1B and for NH to either not be in on Rizzo talks at all or not be willing to do better than Hoyer and Epstein is, to me, inexcusable.
Opinions vary, though. I could be wrong.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
This isn't about Rizzo in particular...
It is about the fact that this regime in Pittsburgh refuses – for whatever reason – to make this sort of move. They clearly need to, there have been enough examples of similar trades over the last 2 years that legitimate excuses for not making the move have been ruled out, and the team can absolutely afford to make the move in baseball terms. It is unbelievably frustrating.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted my list, so here goes. This is due to one of the following:
- Lack of commitment to winning (which I don’t believe, but no longer rule out)
- Financial inability of ownership to win (which I fully except, but not as a causal factor in this instance)
- Incompetence.
It’s got to be incompetence. And I buy into the theory that has been floated here many times: management is over-focused on and paralyzed by value and their unconventional value assessments. This is what we get as a result.
Good day.
Aplogies for the brutal grammar and spelling in the above.
Please “except” my apologies. Too damn early.
Gud daye.
Thank you UncleNate
You’ve said it better than I coud have…
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
its so hard not to!!
Give me one good other reason why we have’nt acquired someone yet?
The only reason I can come up with is NH does’nt realize potential targets and aggressively pursue them.
OR
He over values what he has and other GMs laugh at his demands. Either way NH is just not getting the job done during the off season. I love his theories with draft and international signings but his off season work is pathetic.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Give me one good other reason why we have’nt acquired someone yet?
Teams don’t think as highly of our prospects as we do, thereby requiring more than we’d want to give up in exchange for a guy like Rizzo?
He’s really the only guy mentioned as a potential trade acquisition who’d be worth it, IMO. Trumbo’s not even better than GFJ, and I’ll be surprised if Alonso ever becomes more than a league-average regular.
Angels don’t have as much surplus as you might think. Trumbo has a stress fracture in his foot that he won’t be able to start working out on until well into spring training. He’s at least 6-8 weeks from being cleared to resume activities.
Also, i want no part of Trumbo. After a second-place finish in RoY voting, he won’t come cheap, and he’s a first baseman whose OBP and walk rate last year were lower than Ronny Cedeno’s.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Way overrated..
People look at his HR he hit and the complete lack of almost everything in his game.
I thought that and was getting ready to skewer him in a post
But his MiLB peripheral numbers are superlative. His K/BB rate was solid and his OBP was nothing like the sub-.300 he put up with Anaheim last year. I think there’s a lot of room for improvement with him.
2010 was the only year Trumbo drew an avg number of walks
MLEs (THT Forecasts)
year ba/ ob/ sa bb/ so
2008 244/274/432 040/225
2009 258/293/406 051/222
2010 255/315/464 081/279
2011 258/296/492 044/211
He added power the past two years, but his BA and OB have been quite consistent, also BB & SO except for 2010. A 330’ish wOBA is quite poor for 1B
by Brian Cartwright on Jan 8, 2012 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Where are those numbers from?
I rarely venture outside of BBRef and Fangraphs for stats, and I’m seeing different slash lines:
2008: .281/.325/.540
2009: .291/.333/.452
2010: .301/.368/.577
And the bb/so; those are his percentages slashed? That’s what it looks like for 2010 (split between MiLB and MLB) and 2011, but I’m not sure about 2008 and 2009. His K/BB comparative rate has stayed around 2.5/1 through MiLB.
He hit 32 HRs and slugged .540 in 2008 between high-A and AA. He went down a little in 2009 in the Texas League (not sure how it ranks as a pitchers-vs.-hitters league), but he raked in 2010 in the PCL (everyone hits, but Trumbo killed that league). His wOBA was only .327 for the Angels in 2011 (still a 105 wRC+), but he was always considerably higher in the minors and Bill James projects him for .341 in 2012.
I don’t argue that he wasn’t good at anything besides his power in 2011; my argument was that his MiLB numbers say that he’s better than that. It could be very possible that he’s a AAAA player masquerading as an up-and-coming youngster.
those are MLEs from THT Forecasts
as I credited in the first line of the post, and I am the guy who creates the Forecasts. Those numbers I posted are park and league adjusted, with multiple teams in a season combined into a single line. That gives you a good idea of how his minor and major league seasons compare to each other.
by Brian Cartwright on Jan 8, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
I never liked normalized numbers...
I look at it the same way I look at OPS+: a nice baseline stat and something to quickly compare players, but I’m not sure how well it does justice to a player’s overall performance. Like everyone else, I’ll look at league/park and let it taint how I feel about numbers (best example: Coors Field pre-humidor), but I’m not comfortable with that being quantified into a number.
I could probably do more research on the format, but if you’ll humor me: the bb/so; those are his normalized % rates? For example, in an even 100 PFX environment, it forecasts a 4.4% BB rate and a 21.1% K rate from 2011?
Not putting down your forecasts at all; I’m just not familiar with the site/format. I’ve never used MLE’s for established stats/completed seasons, but I’ve always liked them and ZIPS for projections.
I use MLEs to compare seaosns in different enviroments
Yes, the bb% and so% are per 1000 PA…not a projection, but putting history in context.
Looking at those numbers, Trumbo’s never had better than a 260 equivalent BA, or a 315 euqivalent OB, He’s added a lot of power the past two years, but except for 2010 doesn’t walk much at all, although his strike outs aren’t excessive.
My 2012 projection for him ranks him #37 among MLB 1B,
by Brian Cartwright on Jan 8, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
But his MiLB peripheral numbers are superlative. His K/BB rate was solid and his OBP was nothing like the sub-.300 he put up with Anaheim last year.
Are you adjusting for park and league? Most of Los Angeles (of Anaheim)’s minor league parks are crazy nuts offensive environments, particularly Salt Lake and Rancho.
"This is proof that he did’nt [sic] even do his due diligence"
Unless you are a member of the Pirates’ FO (which I personally don’t think is the case), you have no idea whatsoever if this statement is even remotely correct.
Your frustration, while fairly understandable, does not need to include this.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 6, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
Spare me
By far could have offered a better package…as in, we could have overpaid for Rizzo by giving them Marte and Grossman? Come on. You seem to think that just because a team doesn’t acquire a particular player you want, they’re not after that particular player. Sorry, but Rizzo is worth more than Lincoln or Welker. I’m sorry, but you and none of us, for that matter, are privy to any conversations that my have taken place between the Pads and Bucs. If they asked for Marte and McPherson and NH giggled, and they hung up, would you be so displeased after hearing that or not? What if the Bucs saw something in Rizzo they didn’t like, given that he couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat in his 2 month trial last year? Would that make you feel better? How do you have any proof otherwise?
My only problem with what you are saying...
Is that the perfect player is not going to available by trade. NH’s job, in significant part, is to identify good players – perhaps seeing things that others do not – and responsibily acquire them for the Bucs. There has been real reason for years to question his ability to evaluate young MLB talent.
There have been too many Rizzo-type prospects that fill a yawning need for the Pirates that have been traded for reasonable cost for all of them to be anomalies that, due to circumstances unique to the situation, were not a good fit for the players.
Bottom line: NH (or someone in Pirates management) is paralyzed by an obcession on “value” combined witih lacking assessment of internal and external players.
Good day.
I've already got a sick feeling about this one
this could win the 2012 JJ Hardy Trophy for greatest, missed opportunity by a Pirates GM in a tragedy.
+1
This ones going to come back and bite the Pirates hard.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I find it funny how
everyone here thinks a package of Lincoln, Morris, and Rojas Jr. is far better than Cashner….sorry, don’t see it.
i agree
McPherson is probably the closest we could have gotten. I do agree, however, that the total expected value from Linc, Morris and Rojas might equal that of Cashner, but that
‘s where teams often prefer the higher ceiling of one over the others. That said, I don’t think Cashner’s going to reach his ceiling, so I like this deal infinitely for the Cubs.
I don’t think the world of Rizzo either, but he’s a good player and will do some damage in Wrigley.
"...will do some damage in Wrigley."
IF he gets some PT. They have someone ahead of him.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 8, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Bottom line...
…when a 1B with oodles of upside is traded and a 1B desperate team like the Bucs either A) weren’t in on him at all or B) weren’t willing to top a very toppable offer by the Cubs, it says to me that Huntington is, aside from arbitration stuff, pretty much done for the off-season.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Slight correct: Done except for one thing
Signing Craig Counsell as a utility guy & telling us what wondrous benefits he’ll bring to the clubhouse.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
If they can make that decision based on 150 MLB plate appearances...
…then I really don’t know what else to say
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
True, but you also can’t judge him on Reno/PCL numbers. I like Rizzo’s potential and would have liked to see him get a shot with the Pirates. But it’s not like we’re talking Bryce Harper. There’s a decent chance Rizzo has a worse career than Garrett Jones. He’s definitely not a can’t miss guy.
Absolutely right
He could tank at the MLB level, no question.
But he’s 21 (22?) can’t remember and the Pirates really don’t have anyone than Alex Dickerson to fall back on right now and he just played pro ball for the first time last summer.
So give him a couple years and if he tanks, oh well, you didn’t give up anything critical. And if he succeeds..huzzah!
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Hague, Dickerson & Curry
Hague’s going to be 26, now likely as good as he’ll ever be, and that’s a decent bat (270/330/400) if he wasn’t so bad defensively at 3B, but way below average at 1B. Dickerson is two years younger than Curry, and so far looks like he has a higher peak, but 270/325/455 looks a lot like Garrett Jones. Curry needs to step it up this year.
Rizzo doesn’t project yet to be a star, but at least an avg 1B (265/335/485), and better than all three mentioned above.
by Brian Cartwright on Jan 8, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
Speaking of Harper; there’s also a decent chance Rizzo has a better career than Harper.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
i will take that bet too
and I’d take it on the bat alone, not accounting for the fact that Harper will likely play a tougher defensive position
Yeah, I knew +1 wasn’t for me :)….Anyway, we’ll see what happens. As I wrote, I would haved liked to see us acquire Rizzo, but it may not end up being a big deal. I definitely think Cashner is a much better trade chip than Leroux , Lincoln, Rojas or Allie.
I definitely think Cashner is a much better trade chip than Leroux , Lincoln, Rojas or Allie.
Agreed. But hard to believe San Diego turns down a deal surrounding either Marte or Grossman and a reliever with less upside than Cashner.
A package of Grossman or Marte and Lincoln or Watson or Moskos or McPherson? I would’ve been fine with any of thos combinations.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Marte and McPherson
I wouldnt be terribly comfortable giving that up unless I really believed Rizzo was a good shot to give me 900ish OPSes in 4 of his 6 years of control
You also
don’t know what they’re asking from the Bucs…
+1
I don’t know what part is worse.
a.) were’nt in on him at all or b.) were’nt willing to top Andrew Cashner and some .240 A ball player.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Like the Brad Lincoln led package people suggest above
was so much more enticing…
I'm not sure
McPherson, Meek, Gorkys wouldn’t be more enticing. Yeah, Cashner throws mid-90’s but he is coming off an injury, has had control problems, is not that young and has never put up great K numbers for a guy that throws that hard. Of course that’s a risk, but I have to believe Rizzo would probably be our number 3 prospect right away (behind Cole/Taillon) so I don’t see how you don’t go after that if you are giving up your #6(ish) prospect, a set-up man and an outfielder that will have a hard time ever cracking our OF.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
What is so good about Cashner?
Lincoln and Morris are former 1st round picks that throw mid 90’s and have damaged arms also. Why wouldn’t they want 2 instead of 1?
I don't think Cashner is awesome, I just think that Lincoln isn't very good at all.
Also, Morris hasn’t gotten above AA. Despite what you’ve said, I think Cashner throws harder than both of them, is more than 1.5 years younger than Lincoln.
What is so good about Cashner?
Cheap, ML-ready, has the stuff to be a front-of-the-rotation starter or a back-of-the-bullpen hammer if he makes some adjustments.
Lincoln and Morris are former 1st round picks that throw mid 90’s and have damaged arms also. Why wouldn’t they want 2 instead of 1?
Lincoln isn’t as good as Cashner, and Morris isn’t ready for the majors right now.
Cashner does not have the stuff
to be a front of the rotation starter. To be a stud starting pitcher you need a 3rd pitch (unless you’re David Price). Cashner doesn’t have one. I give minor league players some slack because they are still expected to develop. Cashner’s already in the majors, is not likely to go back and I don’t see him spending a ton of time working on his secondary stuff at the big league level. He was also a reliever in college, not a starter. Cashner absolutely has the stuff to be a back of the pen guy, but he was not developed to be a starter and I think it’s silly to say that he has the stuff now when realistically, he still has work to do before he could be considered a starter at all, let alone a top of the rotation guy.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 9, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
You also need to have thrown more than 10 innings the year before, so we can cross out ML ready, at least for a rotation.
yes
calling Cashner ML ready is a bit of a stretch
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 9, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
The Padres consider him to be MLB ready. That’s whose opinion matters here. Of course, they’re in a large majority there.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 9, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
He has a good fastball and slider, and while his change isn’t great, I’m not comfortable in saying that a 25-year-old with limited upper-level experience will never show any improvement in his feel for the change.
I'm not saying he won't improve
but the lack of a third pitch is a big obstacle on the way to becoming a starter for any pitcher. To have to try and develop one in the majors is another challenge. Since his FB and SL are good but not great you’re talking about a lot of challenges before giving him top-of-the-rotation upside.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 9, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
weren’t willing to top a very toppable offer by the Cubs
Well, that’s the question, isn’t it?
The Padres obviously value Cashner much more highly than the rest of the league does. Player values aren’t static across organizations – everybody has their own valuation of any individual player. Just because we think that Cashner is a fairly marginal talent doesn’t mean that the Padres would see a marginal talent from our own system as an equivalent value.
Now we get to hear every Bob, NutHo, and Jerry bitch about how the Pirates should have gotten this guy. Every time a trade goes down, we should have been the ones to get it. Fucking get over it. The next few days are going to be pretty unbearable with everyone and their brother bellyaching and bitching about this.
Would I have liked to have Rizzo, absolutely. Am I going to burn a cross in effigy on NH’s lawn because they didn’t land him, no. Who’s to say that they didn’t make an offer on the guy? And who’s to say that the Pads didn’t like Cashner better than whatever we were willing to give up. Just because something doesn’t go down, doesn’t mean they aren’t trying.
by pskell02 on Jan 6, 2012 4:52 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
agree
it’s starting to feel like it did pre-Bedard around here… so doom & gloom.
We must have simply punted on Rizzo.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
If by "doom and gloom" you mean "cold, hard, sadly ugly reality"
Then yes.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
in general
IT IS HIS JOB TO BE A GENERAL MANAGER FOR CHRIST’S SAKES. THIS IS WHAT HE DOES ALL YEAR ROUND.
You mean . . .
If we don’t know NH made a good offer, it can’t have happened? How can that be?!
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 6, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose points are automatically false if they aren’t baseless assumptions with no stitch of evidence or credibility behind them.
Example – NH didn’t even try to get Rizzo. Did you tell you that himself?
do you know ze dolphin?
do you know him? do you speak to him at home? DO YOU CALL HIM ON THE TELEPHONE?
I don’t suppose it’s occurred to anybody here that any team in MLB could easily have offered guys like Lincoln and Leroux for Rizzo. According to MLBTR, the Rays and Jays, who both have loaded farm systems, were among the interested teams. That by itself is a tipoff that people here are wildly underestimating how Cashner is viewed.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 6, 2012 4:56 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Cashner was a pretty good prospect and his potential combination of high K and GB rates is enticing.
His K rates
weren’t that great, though. For a guy who throws pretty hard, Cashner has been a 7.5 K/9 guy, which is good but not great. The only time he put up a high K rate was 2010 in 36 AA innings.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
That last sentence...
…has GOT to be the case.
I maintain I don’t get it: Cashner is coming off rotator cuff surger and the Padres themselves said that they see him as an 8th inning guy who might have a future in the rotation. That is not exactly a ringing endorsement
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
The best evidence of market value is an actual transaction. If a valuable commodity sells in an open market for something that you think is crap, then it’s clear the market doesn’t see one or the other the way you do.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 6, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Or it could be just one person making a mistake
like the Jayson Werth signing. The contract didn’t make that his market value, it made that his value to the Nationals, right or wrong.
Or it could be just one person making a mistake like the Jayson Werth signing.
If that one person is the one with whom we’d need to be making the deal, that’s a distinction without a difference. We need to top the Padres’ perceived value of Cashner in an offer, not some third-party consensus of what he’s actually worth.
And i suppose it’s more likely that the Padres are overvaluing (as I see it) Cashner than undervaluing (as I see it) Rizzo. Oh well. Why can’t NH hoodwink someone into overvaluing one of our players like that? Besides McLouth or Dotel, I mean.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
You mean
like a situational lefty to the Yankees for Tabata?
yeah, that one too
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
Regardless...
The day after the Padres dealt for Alonso…
MLBTR headline should’ve read:
" Pirates, Huntington going after Rizzo hard. "
and worse case
Next days headline:
" Asking price too high for Rizzo ", says Huntington. " Atleast we kicked the tires on (Rizzo) him. ", says Huntington.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
And as we all know . . .
If it’s not on MLBTR, it didn’t happen.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 6, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
If it’s not on MLBTR, it didn’t happen
thats right..
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
or maybe the Pirates FO runs a tight enough ship
that all their conversations dont end up on MLBTR. Much as I’d like it as a fan, I certainly wouldn’t want to be the org that was open to the media!
Hear, hear.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 8, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
It is impossible to say whether the Pirates could have topped this offer because maybe the Padres valued Cashner and Na much higher then we are. Maybe we did put a competitive offer out there and the Padres wanted what the cubs had to offer.
I get tired of people saying that we could have topped an offer because we dont actually know what actually transpired behind the scenes.
Maybe Rizzo was overrated in the first place.
Well it seems silly to think they demanded Taillon
so you just keep adding pieces until they say yes.
and if that's the case
I personally feel its NHs obligation to the fans to come out and tell us if he thought he put in a competitive offer, or if he felt the Padres’ asking price was too high.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 6, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
This is ridiculous.
NH owes the fans nothing, except to do his job to the best of his abilities.
Do you pay his salary? No? Then he does not answer to you.
Jerry: I’m not singling you out here – but you seem to be the most upset about it, and really… what can you do about it? What good does getting bent out of shape do? Change things? Nope.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 6, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe NH does’nt owe ME personally anything, but he definetely does owe the FANS as a whole something. I don’t personally pay his salary, but if it were’nt for the fans paying to go see the half a** team he puts on the field then he would’nt even have a job. So in that respect he certainly does owe the fans ATLEAST an explanation to as why a division rival was able to trade for a potential young, controllable star and he was not.
I am really upset about it, and it’s not like its JUST Rizzo I’m mad about. He was just the tip of the iceberg. NH transactions and lack of transactions constantly make me furious but I keep my mouth shut and give him the benefit of the doubt but I’m just fed up at this point. His offseason signings and returns on trades just don’t have any rhyme or reason. They flat out don’t make sense. He over values light hitting utility infielders, clubhouse presence and takes way to many risks on once top prospects all while missing out on guys that fit the mold of who we should be building around. Now obvisouly I’m no GM but some things just seem so obvious that you really have to ask what is he doing?!?!
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
alright NH
what would you have done differently. Name the moves and players you would have traded. Lets see how spot on your managerial tactics are.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Mr. E said it best
this could win the 2012 JJ Hardy Trophy for greatest, missed opportunity by a Pirates GM in a tragedy
Sadly, this is happening way to often with NH. It’s becoming a pattern of way too many missed opportunities in trades and signings and way too many wrong signings and return in trades. At this point I really just have no faith in his and his peoples ability to evaluate talent, and thats not good. I better be wrong about this:
Hultzen, Bauer, Rendon >>> Cole
Hosmer, Posey, Alonso >>> Alvarez
Wheeler, Minor, Turner >>> Sanchez
Machado >>> Taillon
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
so you named
draft choices….
Idk how you can even say such things about Cole and Taillon. Sanchez was known to not be as talented, but they used the money later in the draft. Alvarez has this year to turn it around or you are in pretty much spot on there.
But for Taillon on Cole, come on man, Taillon is only entering his second year and still has “ace” potential. Cole was doing great in the AFL and expects to be at AA. What more do you want from our last two top picks
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
also
Still waiting to hear all the trades you would have made and the players you would have traded.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
NH should’ve traded Lincoln, Leroux and Jaramillo for Joey Votto, but he didn’t even try!!
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
at this point
thats what im expecting to hear. it takes two to tango, people around here act like NH can just call someone up, say here take this A ball pitcher off my hands and give me a top prospect.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
don't have the time or space on this board
to name who I think NH should’ve pulled the trigger on and acquired since being in Pittsburgh. And you can’t say hindsight is 20/20 because there are posts from me on this board saying who I wanted at the time.
Instead of a package of Moss and Laroche for Bay; NH should’ve pulled the trigger on a deal to the Rays for Niemann, Brignac or to the Marlins for Stanton (reportedly all offered for Bay and I was vocal at the time that we would regret not getting any of them).
Instead of a package of Cedeno, Clement from the Mariners we should’ve acquired Brandon Morrow. I said last year I thought Morrow would be a Cy Young candidate this past year and was wrong but look out for him this year. I really like Morrow.
It’s obvious that he just can’t evaluate talent.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
More fantasies
NH did well to get anything at all for Jack and Snell. They had nearly zero trade value. Actually, Snell probably had negative trade value. The only reason they got as much as they did was that Zduriencik got caught up in the myths about his own genius and thought he was going to succeed with all defense and no offense. The idea of getting Morrow is ludicrous.
Stanton is even more ludicrous. He was never rumored for Bay and every rumor that has come up regarding him the Marlins have adamantly denied.
I’ve seen conflicting stories about Brignac (who seriously sucks) and Nieman. I’ve seen stories that the Rays would have given up one or the other, and I’ve seen stories that they weren’t willing to trade either. I’ve never seen a story that they were willing to trade both, except for people on blogs making that claim without citing anything.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
regardless of actual names
Please read Unce Nates post above.
Regardless of any of this it really comes down to this front office is too incompetant to build a winning team. They’ve always preached that once the core is in place they will be willing to go out and acquire peices to fill holes to compete, but for whatever reason they completely fail at doing this.
However NH values his potential targets for whatever reason does not translate to success in the big leagues. It’s a fact. They need to change their mindset in how they assess a players value. That’s really what it comes down to. And the fact that they overvalue every so called “prospect” we have really ruins any chance of us actually acquiring anybody of meaning.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
my further evidence..
look at Neil Walkers case. When NH arrived he seemed to immediately rule out Walkers future in Pittsburgh and was willing to ship him off for a bucket of balls. Anyone that knows anything about baseball could obvisouly see this kid can hit the ball, and play defense wherever you put him. But for whatever reason he did’nt fit NH mysterious mold of a valuable baseball player. It’s just further evidence of NHs questionable talent evaluation.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
you get points for calling NFW as a good 2B candidate
but I’m mystified as to how this is supposed to be a knock on Huntington’s talent evaluation, since that’s exactly what Huntington did with him.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Huntington had no idea what he had with Walker. Walkers success fell into his lap. Huntington basically did everything he could to derail Walker. For lack of a better word Walker was set up for failure.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
How can you say that Huntington did everything he could to derail Walker? You do not know what actually transpired behind closed doors.
You are simply making assumption based on hearsay. Maybe Huntington explicitly told Walker what he wanted him to work on before he would be given a real opportunity.
i agree with you
remember he[nfw] was in the dog house for calling nh on not promoting him.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
cainyoudigit
Your assuming all I know is hearsay. Maybe I know more than just hearsay. Like mentioned; Walker himself was pretty public about the way he was being handled i.e not even bein given a chance.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
put up or shut up
If you know something we don’t, spill. If all you know is the publicly available information that Walker complained about not being promoted when he hadn’t played well yet, you’d do well to remember that Walker was saying the same thing about Bixler — he wasn’t being too objective about who merited what promotion at the time.
If you have any evidence that Huntington wanted to ship him off for a bucket of balls, please cite. It’s not like NH has had any trouble shipping anyone off for a bucket of balls before.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
If factcheck.org did blogs, they’d be writing about this thread for months.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
OT, but screw factcheck.org
I’ll just leave it there so it can be (I hope) a bipartisan sentiment.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t aware that I was saying anything partisan.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
you weren't
I just figured that I could say I didn’t like factcheck.org without being partisan, since both parties have complaints about it, but if I explained why in any detail, it would surely wind up being partisan, since I’d be citing specific cases.
In short, move along, nothing to see here.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
When NH arrived he seemed to immediately rule out Walkers future in Pittsburgh and was willing to ship him off for a bucket of balls.
This is, of course, utter bullshit.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Walker is a bad example
Yeah, Walker’s success at the ML level does seem to be a little bit of good fortune for NH and the Pirates and you’re right that they were unwilling to commit to him early on. However, there is good reason for that. He was a pretty shitty baseball player. Walker seriously turned it on in 2010 and that earned him a promotion to Pittsburgh. In 2009, his OBP was .304 and it 2008 it was .280! That’s OBP not batting average. Going into 2010, Walker had the look of a kid who just couldn’t play well enough to earn a spot above AA. What about a sub-.300 OBP in AAA makes it obvious to “anyone that knows anything about baseball…[that] this kid can hit the ball?” Walker got his ML-shot when he deserved it and not before. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to go?
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Hit the ball and play defense?
One scout said that Walker was one of the worst defensive catchers he had ever seen. His minor league numbers for the most part were quite mediocre too.
Couldn't this
simply suggest that they don’t believe a legit core is in place? Considering the concerns about Pedro’s progression, Tabata and Morton’s health, Presley sample size, Walker’s low ceiling, Marte’s BB rates, Sanchez power outage and the age of the veteran pick ups, isn’t it at least plausible that this “core” might not be able to turn it around even if they had Rizzo?
Personally, I think this core is solid but I understand not committing mega-bucks to free agents (like $60M to Edwin Jackson for example) but I would have liked Rizzo for this price. Maybe the Padres were just super-high on Cashner. Part of me understands since he throws hard but as I said above, he has control problems, is coming off an injury, has a limited ceiling if he’s a reliever, isn’t that young anymore and doesn’t post great K numbers given his velocity. While I’d like to think that a McPherson-centered package could have gotten it done, maybe the Padres wouldn’t even listen unless Taillon was in the discussion. I’m bummed, but I’m not going to crucify the front office until I see how the entire offseason plays out.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
that may be
Maybe that’s why NH has been so quiet this year on trades. Maybe he honestly does’nt believe an adequate core is in place just yet. If that’s what he thinks then I geuss I can’t argue with that. And that would answer alot of questions as to why he did’nt pursue Rizzo harder, but at the same time I have a hard time believing he does’nt believe we have a core in place because of the lsat years first half.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Stanton is even more ludicrous. He was never rumored for Bay and every rumor that has come up regarding him the Marlins have adamantly denied.
I heard a rumor connecting Stanton and Bay. Specifically, that when the Marlins tried to put together that three-way deal with Boston, we asked for Stanton and Ryan Tucker, and that led the Marlins to walk away from the negotiations.
We were never going to get Stanton in a Bay deal. Never, never, never.
fwiw
jonah keri mentioned the bay for niemann and brignac rumor in his book about the rays 2008 team as if it they were willing to do the deal, but he cited no specific source from what i remember.
I remember hearing that
And wanted it. I liked it better at the time than the 4 guys Pittsburgh ended up getting for Bay, and I like it much better now.
Yeah, I read the book, but as you say he cited no sources and he didn’t cover those events as a reporter. I figured he just picked it up the same way a lot of people did, off blogs that didn’t have sources.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 9, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Instead of a package of Moss and Laroche for Bay; NH should’ve pulled the trigger on a deal to the Rays for Niemann, Brignac
Since the deal, Brignac has been absolutely terrible, and Niemann’s a #4 starter who missed a third of last year with arm problems.
still
with the benefit of hindsight it’s the better of the two deals, which isn’t saying much.
Since it “isn’t saying much”, why are we freaking out about it? In retrospect, none of the reported offers for Bay were particularly good. Of course, in retrospect, neither was Bay…
We didn’t leave some huge bounty on the table.
i’m certainly not freaking out about it.
in retrospect, neither was Bay…
that’s a bit unfair. bay was more than good for the period the sox had him – he put up a wOBA around .385 over the season and a half. now what happened with the mets is a different story…
i’m certainly not freaking out about it.
You aren’t, but Jerry is, a little bit.
that’s a bit unfair. bay was more than good for the period the sox had him – he put up a wOBA around .385 over the season and a half. now what happened with the mets is a different story…
One of the possibilities under consideration, given the crappy offers, was keeping Bay and signing him to an extension. In retrospect, that obviously wouldn’t have turned out well.
Similarly, one of the reasons that teams were reluctant to surrender much talent in exchange for Bay was concern over the health of his knees and shoulders. Those concerns have largely been vindicated during his time with the Mets.
I submit
that you’re going to be wrong on the first and last of the inequalities.
Whether the other 2 end up being correct, we’ll have to wait and see— but it’s by no means as much of a slam dunk as you seem to think it is. Sure, you think those are right, but there’s plenty of people that disagree with you, i m sure.
Even if he had an upstanding record
do you think the a-holes here would believe him anyway? No, the Smizik Brigade would likely have burned his house down by now.
I personally feel
that NH should feel no such obligation.
by BurgherKing on Jan 8, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm walkin' here! I'M WALKIN' HERE!
.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Anyone?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 8, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like an idiot...
I just got that…sigh. Well played.
You know
It really upsets me to read all this NH didn’t go for it bs. We know nothing of what goes on inside the FO. They could have called the Padres up, they may not have, who knows, not us. Lets not point the finger at NH and say he didn’t do diddle.
Also (And I know this is backwards logic) but the Pirates several very capable 1B in the system that could be something. That is Curry and Dickerson, scheduled to be at AA and A+ respectively. These two may turn out to be nothing but I’d rather keep say a McPherson, Marte, Lincoln, etc and see what shakes out from these two this season. We still have a year or two before we really need to fill that hole at 1B when we plan on competing.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
agree
Everyone always looks at these trades and thinks that we could automatically top the other team. Who knows what is actually happening behind the scenes? Maybe NH offered someone like McPherson and the Padres liked Cashner better. Maybe Huntington felt Rizzo had too many flaws to justify the asking price.
If the Rays and Jays didn't shell prospects for him
it tells me that Rizzo probably isn’t that good
thank god Fielder is leaving the NL Central
or is he? Didn’t FC recently mention that the Pirates may be free agent players in an upcoming offseason? Well, looking ahead, there isn’t much talent in the 2013 offseason. Maybe we become a darkhorse on a three year deal for Fielder…
Coonelly has specifically brought up Fielder as a guy we're absolutely not going to sign
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
That 3-year deal would have to be worth ~$100 million
Seriously: he’ll turn 28 in 2012, has had a bWAR over 5 in 2 of the past 3 years, and has played at least 157 games in each of his six full MLB seasons. He’ll likely get something in the neighborhood of $155-$175 million over 7-8 years (about $22 million/season) from a contender.
To play for a perennial loser like the Pirates? Maybe throw a on of money at him and make sure he knows he’ll be able to take advantage of that lefty-friendly field to sign another mega-contract before h turns 31. I think about 150% of the annual value of the long-term deal he’s looking at might sway him. Seeing as Pittsburgh just signed their first FA contract >$10 million total in 20 years, it might be a little rich for their blood.
did we not just complete the ryan ludwig deal for cash?
the pads had a list they could pick from or cash. if they turned our players down a couple weeks ago. what makes you think they would be interested now?
We should've told them they could have Lincoln and all their cash back for Rizzo!!
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
i think they feel like i do about lincoln
he is not that good.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
alot of people are throwing Lincolns name around on this board
At this point in time is Andrew Cashner that much more valuable than Brad Lincoln?
Come on guys; were comparing two very mediocre pitchers that likely neither of them have much of a future in the big leagues.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
At this point in time is Andrew Cashner that much more valuable than Brad Lincoln?
Um . . . yes. There’s a lot of severe fantasizing in this thread.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
As far as I can tell I was the first person to mention Lincoln, though I also included Morris and Rojas who you conveniently forget in your mockery. But please back up your talk and explain how Cashner is more than 2 C+ prospects (Morris/Cates) better than Lincoln… I’d love to hear this one
Cashner
Throws much harder, is a little younger, has had a little more ML success (both are in small sample sizes so that might be dismissed). Personally, I really like Brad Lincoln and want to see him get an extended look as a big league starter. I think he has earned it and I think he will be solid when given the chance.
In terms of pure value, I’m not sure Cashner is worth that much more than Lincoln right now but it’s possible that the Padres just like Cashner’s upside more than Lincoln’s and would prefer the guy with a higher ceiling.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Cashner is viewed as potentially a closer and the Padres still may try him as a starter later. He’s reached the majors and had some success there. Morris has yet to pitch above AA, has been inconsistent even at that level, and is down to his last option.
Lincoln shouldn’t even be in this conversation. His own team, which badly needs a rotation upgrade, regards him as nothing more than rotation depth. He has no meaningful trade value. Neither does Rojas until he shows he can adjust to pro ball, which he has yet to do.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
If the Pirates
were going to try and match the Cashner package, I’ve said that I think the starter needs to be McPherson not Lincoln. I was only trying to compare the two players mentioned. I know the Pirates don’t value Lincoln that much but I don’t really understand why. I think that he can be a solid option given the chance.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
McPherson would be more realistic, but I don’t think he’d be enough. That mid- to upper-90s FB counts for a lot, because if a guy can’t make it as a starter, he has a chance of becoming a shutdown late inning reliever. McPherson doesn’t have that kind of stuff.
I’d rather see Lincoln in the rotation than Correia, but when a team as bad as the Pirates sees one of its own prospects as just depth, nobody else is going to see him as having any value. And let’s not forget that Lincoln will turn 27 in May. So he’s going into his age 27 season with no shot at the rotation absent some injuries. That speaks volumes.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying
McPherson by himself would be enough but I can see him and Gorkys being a more appealing package than Cashner and Na. The Padres, however may still have just fallen in love with Cashner’s upside.
I also think it is an overstatement to say that Lincoln has “no shot” at the rotation. With Morton out (you may include that as an injury, I don’t know if you were only talking about further injuries and his is pre-existing) and Correia’s mediocre stuff/performance, I can see Brad breaking camp with Pittsbuergh.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I like Lincoln.
I can see Lincoln breaking camp with Pittsburgh as well except for the fact that Correia will take his spot just because. Just because we like to do stuff that does’nt make sense.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
and Cashner has already not made it as a starter and a year from now will be 26.5, having never thrown 115 innings in a season (i.e. "no shot at the rotation). That speaks volumes. The only advantage comes from oddly thinking he would maintain his 95mph FB if he were starting and 150 innings deep into a season…
fwiw I think Morris would be the centerpiece in my proposal (Lincoln is a solid toss in though) and that was only just a starting offer anyways, I’d happily add more if need be.
The fact remains, if Cashner was the piece of crap you obviously think, there are a bunch of teams that need a 1B that could’ve beaten that offer easily without giving up anybody they’d miss. The fact that they didn’t shows your views of Cashner aren’t shared in MLB.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 9, 2012 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
He’s got some value, I just rate Rizzo much higher. An injured pitcher with 2 WAR upside is what he is, I don’t see how ML GMs could argue that with me.
I absolutely guarantee you the Padres don’t see Cashner as having 2 WAR upside.
Personally, I’d rather have Rizzo than Cashner, but that’s not the issue here. And I wouldn’t remotely consider trading Rizzo (or Cashner, for that matter) for Lincoln, Leroux and Rojas.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 9, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
You can't look at it from that scale.
It is irrelevant what ratings a player has in the eye of fans and outside scouts. All that matters is that the San Diego Padres and their scouts thought that Cashner and Na were equivalent to Rizzo and Cates. The same goes for the Simon Castro/Hernandez for Quentin trade. It does not matter that Castro wasn’t in the Padres top ten list. All that matters is that the Whites Sox thought him and Hernandez were worth Quentin.
I think we as fans get too caught up in arbitrary rankings from the talking heads. The player grades are a nice barometer for fans to follow prospects but the only thing that actually matters is whether or not players will contribute to the MLB team.
I’m sure all teams have a way to value and compare players/prospects and clearly they liked Cashner.
The only explanation I can see is the Padres wanted to concentrate the value in one player and they didn’t judge any one available Pirate prospect as greater than Cashner. If that’s the case then, then I just have to question the Padres philosophy and evaluation, but clearly NH would deserve no blame.
WTM
This is, of course, utter bullshit.
WTM, please explain how Cashner proves much more valuable than Lincoln at this time? let alone Lincoln AND Morris? Until you do your comments are utter bullshit.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
See above. Lincoln has no trade value. And one thing you’ve never managed to address is why, if Rizzo is the God-like prospect you seem to think, none of the other 27 teams bothered offering so much as a AAA depth pitcher, which is what Lincoln is. Your view of these players obviously isn’t shared by anybody in MLB or Rizzo wouldn’t be a Cub now.
This is easily one of the most foolish, reality-devoid discussions I’ve seen in ages.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I've tried to make it quite clear
that I do not think Rizzo is this god-like prospect. I’ve made it clear that this has nothing to do with Rizzo really. I’ve made it clear that I would’ve taken Alonso, Rizzo anyone at this point other than Garrett Jones and I like Garrett Jones. This is about NH being content on not upgrading a 90 loss team. And Mr. E answered your question as to why none of the other 27 teams bothered offering as much as a AAA depth pitcher and that is because they all have another first basmen than Garrett Jones.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
If you have to be stuck with Garrett Jones in order to view Rizzo as an upgrade (and actually MLBTR has been periodically posting a long list of teams that need a 1B, including the Rays who literally don’t have one now), then Rizzo isn’t much of a prospect, certainly not enough of one to merit all this screaming. And I’ve been complaining for months about NH’s failure to upgrade the offense, with 1B at the top of the list. I’m not going to argue there.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 7, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
We agree that NH has yet to show the ability to distinguish a major league hitter from a turnip. We don’t agree about anything to do with this trade.
One thing you should consider: If the only reason no other team bothered to pay the ridiculously low price of Lincoln, Leroux, etc., for Rizzo is that he wouldn’t have been an upgrade for them, then you’re effectively saying the Pirates would still have the worst 1B in MLB even WITH Rizzo. If that’s the case, there was no reason for NH to trade for him.
You can’t have it both ways. Either Rizzo is really worth acquiring, in which case numerous teams could and should easily have given up the equivalent of Lincoln/Leroux/Rojas for him, or he’s worth so little that no other team was willing to give up such a minimal package for him, in which case the PIrates didn’t miss out on anything.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 8, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
NH has yet to show the ability to distinguish a major league hitter from a turnip.
I’m glad we can atleast agree on that, because my rant was mainly concentrated on that and not Rizzo himself. As far as Rizzo I just thought NH should’ve been willing to even OVERPAY for him in terms of prospects/players just for his shear potential upside; not because he was an immediate upgrade for us. But as far as other teams missing out on him; which I suspect were atleast a few interested (Rays, Indians, Rangers, Astros) leaves me ever more dumbfounded and leads me to believe San Diego just really liked Cashner THAT much.
I apologize for all the ranting. Just a die hard Pirates fan that was excited because of last years first half and am growing increasingly frustrated with this quiet offseason.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I’ve made very clear I’m not happy with this off-season, so I hear ya.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 8, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone inparticular you would like to see the PIrates acquire?
I was really excited about maybe possibly getting Ike Davis but then came back to reality and had my sights set on Rizzo…
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
That guy on the Cubs—LaHair is it?—is out of a job now.
I’m getting suspicious of some of these guys who keep getting traded. There seems to be a pattern. A highly regarded hitter—usually a guy who hits for high average with decent or good, but not great, power, but who isn’t real athletic—gets traded, sometimes more than once in a short time, and then never hits in the majors. Daric Barton kinda started the pattern, then there was Brett Wallace, and Smoak. I think there were probably a couple others, but I’m in a hotel now and the wireless connection here is slow as molasses, so I don’t feel like researching it. But I wonder about Rizzo.
Anyway, I’ve come to believe that it’s very tough to trade for prospects because the team giving up the prospect will always know him much better than everybody else. I’m convinced that, at least some of the time, the teams trading these guys realize after seeing them a lot that they lack something. I think it may be athleticism, which may be more important for hitters than prospect hounds tend to assume. So while the prospect hounds, and the scouts who don’t see a player in 130 games a year like his team does, are still drooling over the guy hitting .330 or whatever, his team is becoming skeptical.
Not saying I wouldn’t want Rizzo. They have to try somebody. But I think the real answer is to develop their own hitters, or try to make do with Carlos Pena or Derrek Lee types for a while, assuming they can find one willing to come to Pgh.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 8, 2012 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think Jonathan Singleton could fall into that category. Chances are Philadelphia felt comfortable enough giving up Singleton, because of having Howard at first long term. But I don’t think they trade away Singleton unless they believed he had too many things to work on. In his defense he is still very young; time will tell.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
Oakland A's
They’ve got about 28 young, somewhat interesting first basemen. Anyone think highly enough of any of them to give up a somewhat interesting prospect for?
Chris Carters got some serious power and may be had for cheap-ish? I believe he’s 0-28 or something so far? nor do I believe he ever hit for much average? Hes also right handed; which would probably turn alot of those HRs into fly outs at PNC?
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW, I think some Cub source said that they would start LaHair and put Rizzo in AAA.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 9, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yep.
I read that, too.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:22 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not privy to trade negotiations but if you’re a team with an average 1B or so I wonder if you would make more than a token phone call, assuming the price would be too high.
Of course, you have no clue what phone calls were or weren’t made.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 9, 2012 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
This pretty much sums up this thread
which is now approaching 300 comments. If the Pirates really didn’t even call the Padres then that would be bad. There is no proof of this and I can’t imagine it to be the case.
If the Pirates called the Padres, offered Dan Grovatt and then got mad when the Padres hung up and never called back, this also would be bad. Again there is no proof of this and I can’t imagine it to be the case.
If the Pirates called and offered McPherson, Meek and Gorkys (I’d say this is at least in the ballpark of the actual deal SD made) and the Padres turned it down because they would have rather had Cashner then can you really blame NH? Or, if the Padres insisted that the deal include Taillon or there would be no further talks, would you still be mad at the FO for not pulling the trigger? I think the most likely scenarios are the last two and until I see something that contradicts these to ideas, I see no reason to fault the front office.
I am disappointed that we did get Rizzo for a price similar to what Chicago paid because it seems reasonable to me. However, baseball’s trade market is not like Giant Eagle where you go in, find what you want and pay the price. There was one Anthony Rizzo available and the Padres liked the Cubs offer best. You can’t truly fault NH for this unless info comes out that he really botched the negotiations.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 9, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
And neither do you,
but that’s not the point. I’m only questioning Huntington with conditionals, since that’s all we can reasonably do from the outside. I’m also seriously questioning the Padres.
WTM, please explain how Cashner proves much more valuable than Lincoln at this time?
He’s got better stuff, he’s younger, and unlike Lincoln he’s had an extended run of success in MLB. Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
Cashner is a high-risk high-reward type, and right now Lincoln looks like a back-of-the-rotation starter or a middle reliever.
I might have missed it but where did Cashner have any kind of MLB success besides 10 innings from last year where his numbers were Watson-ish. Lincoln otoh threw 50 or so innings, as a starter, with the rates of a decent #4. Cashner’s also not that high-reward since he will only ever be a closer at best.
I might have missed it but where did Cashner have any kind of MLB success besides 10 innings from last year where his numbers were Watson-ish.
Cashner was very good in 2010, with the exception of a stretch in July where he temporarily lost his command and put up a 10+ ERA. But for all other months combined, he was a hammer. 41 IP, 2.85 ERA, 41 K, 21 BB, 3 HR.
Cashner’s also not that high-reward since he will only ever be a closer at best.
That’s not the scouting consensus on him, though it appears the Padres plan to use him in a relief role.
Plus, even if
he’s a “closer at best,” thats probably still more valuable than Lincoln ever will be.
So, an interrupted run of success and not an extended one. You usually aren’t one to cherry pick so I’m not sure why you do it now. Anyone with talent can perform for stretches, it’s consistency that separates the talented from the greats.
I’m pretty sure all scouting reports on him also had conditions, like, IF he ever developed a 3rd pitch, IF he harnessed his control or IF he could ever stay healthy for 20 or maybe even 30 starts in a season. They also probably came from 2/+ years ago, when he was young and healthy.
you asked the wrong question
At this point in time, does the Pads FO thinkisAndrew Cashner isthatgoing to be much more valuable than Brad Lincoln in the future?
well they basically traded Rizzo for Cash
…ner.
God, that’s awful even by my standards.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
+1
i’ll always give those out for bad puns
D+
for execution. D+ for effort. A- for owning up.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 7, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
on the substance, I doubt that we actually gave them any decent players to choose from
Just because they didn’t want the PTBNLs they couldn’t have doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have wanted someone slightly better from our system.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
true
but maybe we we not offering any better.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
and that's the problem
NH over values what he has and asks kings ransom for them.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
which in turn
Causes him to miss out on great deals for legitament high upside players i.e Rizzo
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
You continue to look at these trade situations as if they were in a vacuum. There are always two sides to these negotiations and maybe, just maybe, the Padres FO really like Cashner. If that is the case then we would need to severely top the Cubs offer.
Maybe Huntington and the Pirates scouts feel that Rizzo isn’t that good.
Have you seen Rizzo in person? Were you sitting in Huntington’s office everyday listening to who he has talked to etc.?
Maybe Huntington called the Padres shortly after the Latos trade and asked what they wanted and they told him that they weren’t going to trade Rizzo. You can’t assume what has or has not occurred behind closed doors.
your making more assumptions than I am.
You continue to assume that I’ve never seen Rizzo play, or that San Diego liked Cashner THAT much.
Your right; I can’t assume what happened behind closed doors but when its a pattern that continues to happen behind closed door any competant person begins to get a pretty good idea what exactly is happening behind those closed doors, and that is the fact that nothing is happening behind those closed doors. Except over paying for below average shortstops and stacking the depth chart with utility infielders.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not making any assumptions
I’m just saying that you are continually acting as if you know the full details surrounding the Cubs acquisition of Rizzo, when in fact the only people that do know the entire situation are a few people in the Padres organization.
Why couldn’t the rest of MLB acquire Rizzo for something better than the Cubs offer?
Thats right because all of the MLB teams have great first basemen and shouldn’t top the Cashner offer. Every single one of them except the Pirates and the Cubs who obviously outbid only the Pirates. (sarcasm)
To be fair
he never said you didn’t see Rizzo play, he asked you if you had seen him play. You didn’t answer. I’ll ask it again, have you actually seen him play? If so, how many times? If you really have spent a good deal of time looking at him, what can you tell us that makes us believe he’s truly an elite talent, not the one that people in the know seem to have some concerns about?
Clearly he’s a good prospect but we just don’t know what the Padres wanted in return. Let’s say that the Bucs offered McPherson and Gorkys, the Rays offered Parker Markel and Kyeong Kang, the Jays offered Aaron Sanchez and Chris Hawkins but the Padres just liked the Cubs offer best because they are especially high on Cashner. Would you still fault the Pirates for not getting Rizzo? Believe me, I’m bummed about it too, but I don’t think you can take one trade and say ‘we shoulda done that’ and assume that the organization didn’t try. I’m disappointed but I’m not angry like you appear to be.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 7, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
thats the new norm
remember that article by the dermatoligist on this very subject.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
How could you possibly know this?
All you have spouted off in this thread is wild conjecture and speculations. I have yet to see you post a solid, logical, fact based argument yet.
Might it be possible that teams are asking too much for our guys? Hell, for all we know, NH contacted SD and they asked for Marte, Grossman, and McPherson. In return, NH probably said f’off and hung up the phone.
My previous point is essentially doing the same thing you have done here in this thread. Speculation with zero shred of evidence.
by pskell02 on Jan 7, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
(responding to karreem above)
Yeah, I have no idea who we were offering — just saying that the fact that SD didn’t want anyone from Ludwick’s PTBNL list doesn’t tell us much about who they might or might not like from our system.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
I’d have thought that they’d want a list of a couple guys in case one was lost to the rule 5, but I have basically no idea how this sort of thing works.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 7, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
maybe the next time someone is interviewing nh they can ask.
plug for c42
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Matter of fact,
(and thanks, kareem!) NH DOES talk in depth about how trades go down (particularly at the Winter meetings) in Podcast #13.
Again – I just don’t see how someone can spout off about something they aren’t privy to – like trade negotiations.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 7, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
please put this on your questionaire for the next chat with nh.
i’ll owe ya a augustiener
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
check that pittsburgh brewing stopped brewing it
what a shame, so ic amber it is.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
yes, please.
Can someone please blatantly ask NH why the Pirates were unable to acquire Rizzo? Whether that be:
a. NH thought Rizzo was overrated.
b. San Diego wanted too much in return
c .San Diego did’nt like any of our prospects
d. NH never attempted to acquire him.
e. etc…
I would just really like to know what has happened all this off season as to why we have been unable to this point to acquire a young, high upside first basemen when there is seemingly many options…
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Why don't you write to him and ask?
I look forward to hearing his response to you.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 7, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
good question
I would’nt know how to begin to even go about getting in direct contact with Mr. Huntington, or else I would. And why do you look forward to hearing his response? You too, are confused why we did’nt land him?
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I am not at all confused.
Nor am I interested, since (1) it didn’t happen, (B) nothing can be done about it now, and (3) I don’t really give a rat’s back end about Rizzo.
As I explained above, NH gave us quite a bit of insight on what goes on regarding trades in the Rumbunter Podcast Episode 13. I’m not going to quote it all here. If you are interested, you can go listen. If you’re not, that’s up to you. I’m giving you the opportunity to hear him talk about something almost exactly like this, in his own words, which is about as close to the “explanation of why not” you’re asking for that you’re going to get without direct correspondence.
If you’re really that interested in corresponding with him, you could simply write a letter and mail it to
Pittsburgh Pirates
PNC Park
Address: 115 Federal Street or P.O. Box 7000
City: Pittsburgh, State: PA Zip Code: 15212
Website: pirates.com
Tel: (412) 321-BUCS or 1-800-BUY-BUCS
It’s also pretty easy to figure out what his email address is, or to call or write to the team and get it.
If you really want it, it’s actually pretty easy to do.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 7, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
i'ma tak'a guess
nh/pirates.com
oh ya my daddy went to highschool with ron paul.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 7, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
No, that's not it.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 7, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
nice!
Would really like to hear something back about the negotiations or lack of for Rizzo..
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Like most GMs, NH has said many times he never discusses negotiations.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 8, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
your right.
But maybe if he saw this thread; he would make an exception?
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
i sent a link to this very thread
i also invited him to join. doubt he gives me the time of day, ya never know.
by karreemofwheat on Jan 8, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
NH's email?
I’d try notthe27yankees@pittsburghpirates.com.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Jan 8, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 9, 2012 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yep.
(1) ‘Coz I like it and (B) SBN’s auto-numbering/listing thing is funky.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 8, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
I mentioned one below, but..
Without looking into it too much; obvious options to me include Ike Davis, Kendry Morales, David Cooper, Chris Carter, Matt Adams, Joe Terdoslavich, etc, etc…
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 8, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Just throwing this out there
From the Rays SB Nation blog trade thread…
Rival talent evaluators were taken aback by how overwhelmed Rizzo looked against even mediocre fastballs last summer; to many, it looked like Rizzo simply lacked the kind of bat speed needed to be a productive major-leaguer. "What I saw scared the (bleep) out of me, to be honest," said one AL official, describing how he saw Rizzo get tied up inside by right-handers throwing 88-90 mph fastballs.
Not sure of the original source.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 7, 2012 4:43 PM EST reply actions
Arbitrary prospect lists and grading scales
FIrst let me say that I do enjoy reading and participating in prospect lists and grading scales when it comes to prospects.
Fans, bloggers etc. sometimes place such a strong and illogical emphasis on these rankings. In reality it does not matter what Sickels, Baseball America, Keith Law, Bucsdugout community rates each prospect. The only thing that matters is that these prospects eventually produce at the major league level.
With that being said, the only rankings that matter when it comes to trades is the internal value placed on players by the teams in MLB. Simply because Rizzo is considered a B+ prospect does not mean that he is or that Huntington etc believe he is.
Sure rankings can be indicative of how a player might turn out but it still does not matter. Plus, a majority of us on this blog and other sites know nothing about these prospects other than what we read,
this conversation should be in another thread
Because everyone (except a few) seem to think this has everything to do with Rizzo or prospects rankings. It does’nt. It has to do with me completely losing faith in NH, because of his inability to make quality trades and signings. I really think there should be more conversation about why this should be NH last year, and who we think could do a better job. Unless this team or the minor league system takes a BIG step forward this year I don’t see how you can let NH come back for another year. The PIrates can’t afford to have ANOTHER piss poor offseason.
another one turned to the dark side I see
It has to do with me completely losing faith in NH, because of his inability to make quality trades and signings
Not every GM is going to make a great trade. I remember a fan post a long while back that says most prospects that are obtained through trades of MLB players turn out to be nothing special if anything. The point is, NH did a good job dealing with the Yankees and Braves. Lost out with the BoSox and Giants.
His signings this year have been better than the usual. He has developed a good one to string together a bullpen. Hell, throw in a good deal trading with the Nats as well and a push with the Mariners because no one won that deal if you ask me.
What more would you like NH to do with his limited funds. He isn’t signing Fielder, Pujols, CJ Wilson, etc. Make due with these signings until the next wave of talent arrives (mainly 2013, ie Sanchez, Marte, Cole maybe Taillon). Lets see what Dickerson and Curry do this year, another year in the system and one or both could be top guys.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
And
did well with the Nationals.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 9, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
If what you really want to express is generalized frustration at management, that should be a separate post. This Rizzo thing has been beat to death.
that's what I suffer from
Generalized Frustration At Management. We’ll call it G-FAM. I suffer from G-FAM.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps you should write a fanpost then
but most of those arguments were before NH got his extension or around that time.
I'm teetering to the dark side
It’s really depending on whether or not NH makes another move. I just have a hard time believing he’s going into the year with Jones at first, and one VERY shaky rotation.
Why
does that seem like such a bad option? There was no real way to turn this year’s team into a contender short of convincing Fielder, Pujols, and Reyes or trading the entire farm system away. The first option is risky because it could turn into an albatross that could decimate the franchise for another decade. It makes more sense if we had a better core. Like in two years, especially if Cutch has signed say a 2 year extension (through 2017). Prior to the 2014 season the following free agents that could fill the hole that’s projected by then (SP, SS, 1B, 3B) include
Asdrubal Cabrera – will be 28 going into the season
Jair Jurrjens – also will be 28
Joey Votto – will be 30 going into the season
Matt Garza – will be 30 going into the season
Ryan Zimmerman – will be 29 going into the season
Josh Johnson – will be 30 going into the season (risky, but he’s amazing).
Those are the guys you offer a 4/60-80 (depending on the player). Instead of adding a player like that now (such as say Reyes or Mark Buehrle) to Cutch, Walker, Tabata, and a patchwork pitching stuff, add it to Cutch and some combination of Cole, Taillon, Marte, Presley, Tabata, Grossman, Tony Sanchez, etc for the following 4 years.
That’s why we need to open up the pocketbook though and sign Cutch. If he’s unwilling it’s not Neal Huntington’s fault, but if he’s angling for a discount when fair market value will buy out two more years, then it’s an issue. I won’t really start worrying until post 2013 though.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 9, 2012 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like this
except I want no part of Jurrjens who I expect to implode in the next couple of years.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 9, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
What about David Cooper?
Anyone think theres any chance NH goes after David Cooper from Toronto? Young, high upside, cost controllable, blocked. What would it take to get Cooper? Seems it’d take even less to get Cooper than Rizzo; And Rizzo did’nt take much.
Thoughts?
well let me say this.
NH better not go out and trade the farm for Mark Trumbo.
I’ll lose it.
Would rather have Jones than Trumbo.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 7, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Cooper?
what makes Cooper so hot? Wasn’t great in limited action this past season. Im looking at his minor league stats and nothing is jumping out at me. The year he actually showed the most power with HRs was one of his worst years OPS wise. He is more of a gap/doubles hitter it seems like.
Also looking at his fielding stats from 2011, he doesnt seem to great with the glove either.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
if they would actually platoon Jones
which they did a fairly good job of last year, maybe they do it better this year but I see a guy that can OPS about 800. Thats pretty damn good if his platoon partner can do something similar or at least OPS 700
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
rambling here
but if Cooper is someone your looking at, look no further than Nick Evans or Jake Fox. Both had better minor league careers IMO compared to Cooper.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
Or whats the guy's name in KC
Clint Robinson? Especially since he’s blocked by Hosmer…
I would inquire
about him and wouldn’t hate it if he were in Pittsburgh. However, I wouldn’t give up a ton for him. Since the Pirates don’t really have any other options internally and it seems less and less likely Pena or D-Lee wind up in Pittsburgh I wouldn’t hate giving him a shot here. I’d give up something like Locke or Owens but not much more.
by KentuckyPirate on Jan 9, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW, the folks I’ve talked to at BBB (Jays’ SBN blog) generally seem to be thrilled by the concept of getting any sort of value in a trade for Cooper; they tend to view him as a decent bench bat at best.
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
"Matt Cooke and Evgeni Malkin for Brian Boyle, Derek Stepan, Brandon Dubinsky, Mike Rupp, and a first round pick." -JackCampbell
How many brooks would a Brooks Laich like if a Brooks Laich could like brooks?
there's already been a discussion on Cooper
He wouldn’t be a bad get, but I dont know i’d give up much for him. Maybe Morris, and I really dont believe in Morris anymore
Seeing another team get a player you would have liked on your team
I feel the same way that I imagine most of you do: I hear “Cubs get Rizzo for Cashman (who I think is crap)” and I start wondering “Why couldn’t the Pirates have put together a better package?” Maybe some or all of the points above are true, maybe NH heard/thought/believed that San Diego wasn’t going to try to move Rizzo right away, maybe NH figured/heard the cost would be high, so he didn’t pursue… it’s impossible to speculate on that.
I just bought a new car last month. If I talk to a buddy who bought a better car for much cheaper than I would have thought, it stings a little, as if I missed out on a good deal. If Josh Byrnes had given a presser and said “I’m selling Rizzo; we’ll open the bidding with Andrew Cashner,” then it’s game on. NH can’t, in retrospect, really comment very fervently about a player like that because he can’t anger Byrnes (potential future trading partner), Rizzo (possibly a Pirate in the future, or NH may end up working for another club while he’s there), or Jones/McGahee/Hague (by implying that they’re not good enough).
My bigger question: Why does everyone love Andrew Cashner? Did I miss him breaking out? He’s crossed the 60 IP plateau once in his MiLB/MLB career and is coming off rotator cuff issues. His GB% is nice, but his K rate isn’t extraordinary, and I haven’t seen the “every scout loves him” general consent (he was #95 according to BA before 2010). He doesn’t seem like an elite guy, and Rizzo seemed like a more valuable trade asset. The questiont to me becomes: How badly did Byrnes get fleeced?
235 comments for Rizzo!
Come on Spring Training!
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