A.J. Burnett Trade: Yankees Reportedly Want More From Pirates
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 13, 2012 7:25 PM EST
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Someone, presumably someone from the Yankees, tells Joel Sherman what's holding up the A.J. Burnett deal:
Heard #Yankees would do AJ deal if #Pirates took on north of $13M of $33M owed. But so far, Pit offered to eat $10M give up 2 blah prospects
If this is truly what's going on, then I think pretty much all of us would regard this as good news. Most importantly, it sounds like the Pirates aren't willing to give up good prospects in this deal, as most of us agree that they shouldn't be. I wouldn't mind seeing the Pirates take on a couple million more if that's what's required -- it's not my money, and as we've seen, it's not that easy for the Bucs to spend on good starting pitching in the free agent market. But it sounds like the Pirates are in a decent negotiating position here. If the Pirates are currently offering to take $10 million and the Yankees want them to take $13 million, then I bet something like $12 million will eventually get the job done. If the prospects are, in fact, "blah," then I'm okay with that.
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The prospects should be blah
Burnett is blah, too. Though still better than Kevin Correia.
by maguro on Feb 13, 2012 7:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
2 years of A.J. Burnett at, let's say 6.8 million per year, without giving up anything (except maybe someone like Calvin Anderson)
should be a done deal for the Bucs if it’s out there.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
i guarantee Cashman is trying to squeeze out better than “blah” prospects and Huntington wont do it. i’d say anyone but the top 15-20 prospects in the “BD Community Top 30 prospects” list should be available to the yanks. i dont like the idea of kingham, ZVR, or both being included in this deal
Not necessarily a reply, but putting it here so it's seen:
New York POST, so take this how you will…
Joel Sherman writes (in part):
The key number, as of last night, appeared to be $13 million. If the Pirates were willing to go north of that, the Yankees would be more amenable to taking on middling prospects. But the Pirates were refusing to budge. They are viewing the Derek Lowe deal from earlier this offseason as a yardstick to follow.
He goes on to mention CLE as being a possible part of this. Don’t wanna copy the whole thing, though.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 14, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
I keep saying this, but I still don't get it
From Sherman: “They still would like to add Eric Chavez as third base insurance for Alex Rodriguez”
The first thing I would look for in a guy I was adding as insurance would be not having missed most of the last four years with injuries. Maybe just three of the last four, but still, this is some AIG-style insurance.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 14, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Are you saying that Neal has saggy tits?
by maguro on Feb 13, 2012 7:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Looks more like
that he arbitrarily dances in the woods then makes a GIF of it.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
HEY
The position of annoying talking animal has already been filled!
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 13, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
oh...
I see.
My work blocked that pic.
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 14, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
12 million
and brock holt and latimore would gets this deal done.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
I don't think it's helping the Pirates negotiations ...
when credible sites like Fangraphs are saying that Burnett might produce in Pittsburgh. This is still quite a new trading environment for GM’s and I think Cashman is very weary of making a trade that rebuffs the general internet consensus.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 7:59 PM EST reply actions
No need to be a dick.
I think GM’s and scouting departments are aware of what is being written about their organizations. Why did this make you laugh enough to comment?
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
I think all MLB GM’s will have at least one assistant that monitors the better baseball blogs for information regarding trades.
Dan Fox has been a Pirates empolyee for quite a while now. Do you really think he doesn’t care what people say on Fangraphs?
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
doesnt NH have his own metrics squad in house? or at least his own reliable subcontractor???
both NH and FC have stated that they do indeed check out the pirates blogs, but theres no way that anything said on them influence their decision making.
by white angus on Feb 13, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that...
the negotiations started with Cashman keen to offload Burnett for a minimal amount of dollars while Fangraphs are saying that the Yankees will struggle to trade AJ Burnett.
Then gradually, the internet consensus becomes – AJ Burnett would be good for the Pirates – including a new Fangraphs column that lists the potential benefits of the Bucs acquiring Cashman.
I think this is an example of the documented change in MLB general management. Cashman could have potentially offloaded Burnett for a bag of balls and felt good about it until some clever guy on Fangraphs ripped him. But he waited, and now the intelligent internet consensus is that the Bucs would benefit by acquiring the right hander, thus increasing his trade value for the Yankees.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bucs acquiring Burnett not Cashman…lol.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
We're the peanut gallery
This is a multimillion dollar negotiation. I think you dramatically overestimate our “impact”.
by gorillagogo on Feb 13, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I never implied that chat on BD would have an effect.
I meant articles written by very clever men on Fangraphs.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Haha. Trust me, they don’t care what Fangraphs says. And I like Fangraphs. But the Pirates don’t care, and the Yankees definitely don’t care.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 13, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t mean to be glib. But I only wish blogs were that influential.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 13, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
So you are 100% sure that during the negotiations the Yankees front office haven’t said – Look what the intelligent commentators on the internet are saying, Burnett is worth more the $x million dollars you are prepared to pay.
You’re closer to the front office than most Charlie and I respect what you are saying, but don’t the MLB teams have a duty to monitor potential trades via the web these days in order to stop Dotel/JMac type disasters?
by RDV across the sea on Feb 13, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
dont take this as me being a jerk, i do it much better in other ways
if a front office needs to monitor zee internets commintators, they shouldnt be in the front office
that is all
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I know people in the Pirates’ front office read Bucs Dugout, and I’m sure they read Fangraphs. I’m sure the press is influential, to a degree — what Dejan Kovacevic says definitely matters to the Pirates, for example. If the entire commentariat, including a lot of local papers and blogs, were to say that something is a terrible idea, I’m sure Bob Nutting would take notice. But I know that, for example, Neal Huntington doesn’t read a lot of stuff on the internet, because in some cases it might not be helpful for him to see it. And I don’t think any team thinks that the analysts at Fangraphs are smarter or better-informed than their own analysts. If they did, they’d just hire the Fangraphs people. Blogs and websites surely have influence in certain areas, but I really don’t think it could have an effect on haggling over a couple million dollars in the A.J. Burnett deal.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 14, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
my only point is
their job is to know what their doing, utilizing fangraphs and other sources is a good thing, it takes a load off their stat gurus and present a clear sheet of what a guy is and isnt doing well. reading bd for comic relief and the occasional snippet they may have missed on the wire is also probably a good thing.
reading bd or any other ball blog to gain insight into will and wont work as far as trades just seems a tad off to me…i dunno… maybe its just me
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
No, I agree with all that. I mean, there might sometimes be good ideas that they hadn’t thought of on BD and certainly on other websites, but they really shouldn’t need to look to Fangraphs or BD or anything like that to know what to think about A.J. Burnett.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 14, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
yup pretty much
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Fangraphs is in the minor leagues of websites
You have to go to Baseball Prospectus before being hired by a team!
I’m at THT, been interviewed by three teams in the past 6 months, but the BPro guys get hired. Still hoping.
by Brian Cartwright on Feb 14, 2012 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
I'd hire you...
but off course I’m not running a team.
You’ll get there.
www.drstrangeglove.com
by nycbucsfan on Feb 14, 2012 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
thanks
although 2 of those 3 teams haven’t hired anyone yet (Mike Fast went from BP to Astros).
I will be speaking at SABR Analytics conference next month in Phoenix, lots of teams in attendance, so need to get some business cards made up, let my wife dress me well.
by Brian Cartwright on Feb 14, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
You're giving Ned Colletti way too much credit.
He’s an idiot.
by BarryJT on Feb 14, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't mean to be a dick
my sarcasm meter must be stuck. I hope management isn’t letting “the general internet consensus.” influence their decisions to any great extent.
If Cashman is a good GM
and I believe he is, he won’t give a shit about the general internet consensus. He is just doing his job, trying to leverage every ounce of value out of Burnett.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
cashman needs
to get under the luxery tax and have enough to sign a lefty dh, so does anyone no what that amount is. Maybe some sort of 3 way trade is in the works.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
Want more? Why don't they ask
one of the other 3 teams that is in hot pursuit of AJ freakin Burnett? There is a Ciriaco joke in here somewhere.
by Mr. E on Feb 13, 2012 8:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That would be...
The Bucs, the Buccos or the Pittsburgh Baseball Club, right?
The problem with the other teams...
…is that there’s a concern that Burnett would have trouble learning the rules of Blernsball.
"prospects"
Does anybody else think all the nay-sayers would have a lot less bitching to do if these articles all said “and two minor leaguers” instead of “and two prospects”? I feel like people hear the word prospects and instantly fear the worse.
by Tuckshop25 on Feb 13, 2012 8:12 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Pretty much
FWIW, I could live with one marginal (i.e., 25-30) prospect and a “minor leaguer”. I don’t think this deal is actually worth 2 genuine prospects, not unless the Yanks take on $33M+ (and as Charlie says, as I’ve said from the start, it makes much more sense for us to take on cash than give up legit prospects).
If one guy that we’ve all pretty much written off is the price of getting the deal done, fine. But there’s no way that we should be giving the Yankees 2 lottery tickets to give them both salary relief and an escape from a contract gone sour.
All that said, I think we’ve been underestimating Cashman in all this. A guy doesn’t keep his job for George Steinbrenner for 10 (?) years and then transition to Hank without being pretty damn smart. Oh yeah, and I think he’s mostly kept the team above .500, which IME is freaking impossible. Point being, this isn’t Ed Wade. Cashman’s not in this to get rolled.
Exactly
Cashman isn’t great, but he isn’t the worst GM in the league either.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Yeah, he's kind of under a different standard
not easy either when the owners go over your head and shell out 35 million for a set-up man…the best was in the press conference and Cashman basically said “yeah, I didn’t want to do this.”
the reality is
the GM does a lot…but the owner does what he wants, when he wants. I feel $XX dollars are available…but $XX + $10m could be available if the OWNER wants it to be.
One such example — the Seattle Mariners. I have heard, multiple times, that some moves with respect to Japanese players came from the owner…and the GM just deals with it.
by insane_sanity on Feb 14, 2012 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
The only players we should be giving up are guys no one could pick out of line up.
Stick to you guns, NH. Cashman’s more desperate than you are.
no he's not
Yankees don’t need to be under the luxury tax until 2014, Burnett’s contract runs out by then. The Yankees want the roster spot, and a simple competition between Hughes and Garcia for the 5th spot rather than Hughes, Garcia and Burnett; where Burnett is the front runner based on his salary than actual skill
but
we all want the deal done though and hopefully it will be.
Yankees don't need to dump Burnett's contract
They want too, just like the Pirates want to get Burnett so your boys in the minors can get the seasoning they deserve before being slotted in the rotation over the next 2 years. they don’t really need. Neither team is desperate, and neither are going to be dramatically affected by not going through with a trade.
Gaahh!!!
Get it done Neil!! They want Cole? Give ‘em Cole? They want Taillon, give ’Taillon! They want us to eat 20 million in salary, eat the 20 million – that’s cheaper than Matt Morris given inflation.
Trust me, I use to be a GM…. sincerely, David L in Cleveland
Welcome to the new dark ages.....
I LOL'd.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 13, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
NICE!
And let A.J. know he doesn’t even need a physical to be traded here!!!
Trust me, I AM a GM…sincerely, Neal H. in Pittsburgh
(((YAY FOR SARCASM!!!!!!))) << for those that missed it
by insane_sanity on Feb 14, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
Walk away.
At this point I hope NY media sources are just reporting about something that isn’t going to happen because they are bored. I just wish they’d talk about the NHL NFL and NBA instead of scary rumors involving the Pirates.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I don't see the "NY Media sources" the same way you do...
This is its-not-football-or-baseball-season-so-lets-talk-about-this news for New Yorkers. They just won the Super Bowl, the Rangers are on a complete tear, and the Yankees are always, well, the Yankees. I doubt the “New York Media sources” are some scary underground group getting their jollies as bored Pirates fans sit around debating the merits of eating less than half of the salary of the 5th pitcher in their rotation.
The Pirates don’t just “walk away” because the Yankees haven’t caved in yet to their demands. It’s a negotiation, and the Yankees aren’t the Yankees JUST due to their immense pile of money behind them (has a large part in it, but they’re not complete dummies either). This is as good of a deal for them as it is the Pirates, and multiple sources, including baseball writers here in Pittsburgh point out this is a prudent move for both teams.
Good for them, i'll believe it when I see it.
Most of what has been reported is not a good deal for the Pirates.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Feb 13, 2012 9:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
At this point
If NH walks away from this, there will be smoking ruins where there used to be Pirates coverage, blogs, and talk radio. You’d have to put on a hazmat suit just to visit this blog. Jason Robards would have to come back just to treat the wounded. Smizik might be interviewed on TV. It could get that ugly.
I watched
The Walking Dead last night and the thought of Smizik, on TV and opining on this deal is more unsettling than a zombie dinner.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
Oh, that and much more.
Gene Collier will write an 800-word column with 750 lame “jokes.” DK will stop obsessing over the city of Winnipeg for 20-30 minutes. Ron Cook might say something intelligible. This blog will deem the off-season the worst since we picked up Sixto Lezcano, Steve Kemp and George Hendrick. Somebody might nudge Biertempfel awake. Mark Madden could wet himself. Greg Brown will have to angrily shelve his “A-1 A.J. BURNETTE-STORM” nickname he’s been working on for a week. The Smize-bots will pass out from the sheer ecstasy of having a new line of attack against “The Nuttings.” Jaime Dixon will laugh at our plight. Hines Ward could decide to sign with the Ravens. All because NH wanted to save a few bucks.
You know,
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 14, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know
In reading the many Buc blogs regarding this deal, I don’t get the sense that everyone really wants Burnett; unless he comes relatively cheap so if he fails it’s no big loss to the team’s future. I could be wrong here, but that’s how I’m readin it.
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
Well it could be worse...
MLB Trade rumors refers to the Astros’ new “director of decision sciences” and how he’ll help improve the team’s on-field production….when the Pirates hire a “director of decision sciences,” its time to hang it up.
Welcome to the new dark ages.....
by Trogluddite on Feb 13, 2012 9:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I saw that blurb
about the Astros… some dude named Costanza right? I vaguely remember him being with the Yankees a few years back.
"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.
by Pagliaroni on Feb 14, 2012 6:14 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
+1
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
The waiting is the hardest part.
They need to make this happen soon. Maybe I can make it happen by saying, “The longer the discussions drag on, the worse I feel about it. I’m afraid this deal isn’t getting done.”
XfingersX
Posted this in the other thread but now I'll post it here
At least the guy strikes people out. That’s something Pirates haven’t had since….Francisco Cordova? IF we don’t give up any worthwhile prospects, who cares about the money? At least it establishes a new baseline as to which we know Nutting can afford to operate. It’s only 2 years and the influx of minor league talent isn’t going to hit until a few years from now and his $$ will be off the books.
If we were in contention halfway thru the season with what we had last year against Fielder/Braun and injured Pujols/Larussa, who is to say with a rotation that would be much better (ideally consistency or even improvement from Morton/Mcdonald, slight dropoff of Karstens, and hopefully half a season out of Bedard with Burnett who would undoubtedly be better in the worst division in the NL) and not against those teams at their strength last year won’t at least do the same?
The big question to answer here is how much will this hurt the hopeful contention we’ll have in 2-3 years?
The Yankees and Pirates are still discussing the deal and it’ll probably be completed, according to Charlie Wilmoth of influential blog, bucsdugout.com. It seems very likely that the Pirates will take on upwards to $10MM of the $33MM remaining on Burnett’s contract and give up two non-roster players.
[Yankees may have CBSSports.com, but we have bucsdugout.com. Let the media campaign begin…]
This thread is getting really weird.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 13, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
i almost stopped at the speal above talking about front offices monintering
teh internetz….now i know i should have….
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Did You Know
That this is the 12th front page post in some about the potential of an A.J. Burnett deal.
I realize there’s little else to talk about, but sheesh.
That’s called thorough coverage, baby.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 13, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Well, you’ve gotta have some posts to cover Burnett, and some to cover Burnette, and some to cover Brunett.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
i think we can all agree that less "coverage" is actually preferred
by white angus on Feb 14, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+2
get it?
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
Haha, yeah
Just to clarify, it wasn’t a criticism or anything, it’s just kind of amazing/amusing to me.
Beat sthe shit out of
400+ comment threads.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 14, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
Here's what will happen
1 – Deal gets done. One set of trolls come out and bitch and moan about how the FO is spending just to spend and that this is a waste of money. The team should have just saved the money and signed Maholm because he is such a superior player.
2 – Deal doesn’t get done. The other set of trolls come out (many of whom are the same trolls as the one above) and bitch and moan about how the FO is cheap. Rabble Rabble Sale the Team Rabble Rabble.
by pskell02 on Feb 14, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
you have a firm grasp on reality my friend
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
Honestly, it hasn't been the trolls whining on here lately.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
by Cheap Beer on Feb 14, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
WHAT IS THE HOLD UP..........PITTSBURGH NEEDS THIS TRADE.
The Pirates can afford to take on 13 of the 33 million. Once again it’s the Pirates penny pinching again. NH I love what you have done to the farm system but this is what it takes sometimes to get good players. Pittsburgh can’t spend like they use to in the draft so take on the extra 3 million and let’s go to spring training.
Kenneth Lewis Moore
It’s not about the money. It’s about the prospects that the Yankees are trying to get in addition to the money. If they are demanding a package that includes anyone that might have a chance to make the major league roster, NH should not do the deal. If it came down to the Bucs paying $13M with nothing on top of that, the deal would have been done 2 days ago.
you have a firm grasp on the use of CAPS LOCK my friend
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
But we have several guys who are replacement level
Harrison and d’Arnaud have MLB experience, but that and their minor league record don’t suggest anyone who will actually contribute. I liked Brock Holt, but he’s not looking like someone who will crack the lineup, but may get a cup of coffee. It might be worth parting with someone like that. I’d hold on to lower level pitchers (Kingham, ZVR, etc) as it’s too soon to tell who will break down and who will make it.
by Brian Cartwright on Feb 14, 2012 1:19 AM EST reply actions
Not opposed to this deal...
but seriously, for all the “have to get this deal done” crew: Correia had 12 wins last year; how many would you expect to get from Burnett ? If he’s lights out, with the Bucs offense, lets say 16 at best. So for 4 more wins, we give up a bunch of money and prospects ?
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
I'm expecting him
to be worth more than a replacement player
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 14, 2012 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
Yep...
I’ll use any stat that supports my argument ! :)
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
by michaelbro8 on Feb 14, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Innings...not wins
Moreover, if the team could improve itself by four wins for 7.5 mil, that would be a steal and they should do it immediately.
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 14, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
YUP!
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
Yankees Reportedly Want More From Pirates
I’ve wanted more from the Pirates for 20 years now.
by SuperBaes on Feb 14, 2012 9:53 AM EST reply actions 7 recs
Me too.
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
by IAPiratesFan on Feb 14, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
If only someone around here had an inside source...
by King Oskar on Feb 14, 2012 6:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
whered mr "i have a source inside the yanks front office"
go…
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
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