Pirates Beat Garrett Jones In Arbitration
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 16, 2012 1:58 AM EST
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PrintI personally couldn't care less about this, but since some people do, here's a thread for it. The two sides are fighting over a difference of a quarter of a million dollars -- Jones wants $2.5 million, and the Pirates want to pay him $2.25 million.
One quarter of one million dollars!
I suppose it's a shame that they couldn't manage to settle this before arbitration, but I'm not ready to criticize the Pirates for that. A quarter of a million dollars isn't much to a major-league baseball team, but it isn't nothing, and I can't fault the Pirates for fighting for it. Arbitration certainly isn't the kindest process in the world, but Jones will get over whatever hurt feelings result, and if he doesn't, oh well -- the Pirates probably won't have much use for him beyond his arbitration years anyway.
And the rest of us aren't even going to remember this a week from now. We'll have moved on to discuss issues that will be more pressing, like the Pirates 'banning' some player from Twitter, or a local restaurant owner getting a call from Frank Coonelly, or the precise timing of a leak that the Pirates will raise luxury-box prices 19 cents in 2013, or a shocking new twist in the impending Chris Gimenez signing, or any of what I'm sure will be about 82 minute variations on the A.J. Burnett trade rumor. (And yes, each of those 82 will have its own thread, in case you're wondering.)
Anyway, Garrett Jones! Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars! Go!
UPDATE: The Pirates won their case against Jones, and settled for $2.5375 million with Casey McGehee.
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You’re right. Nobody cares…..but if Ross Do-do-bird Ohlendorf won his arbitration case, I’d say it’s looking good for GI to get the extra 1/4 mill.
One has nothing to do with the other.
What makes you think they would?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 8:15 AM EST up reply actions
well, that depends on the 2
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
Flagged as inappropriate,
and my question remains unanswered.
What has one to do with the other?
(By the way – as it turns out, no, it didn’t have anything to do with Ohlendorf’s arb win… You were WRONG – Jones lost. )
So – let’s sum up, shall we?
Not only do you childishly go for the name-calling (which makes you look a fool) [ in addition to being unoriginal… come on, dude – “Cock for 2?” Can’t you do any better than that? I mean, as pointed out below, it could be a compliment, taken in the right context – as in "Mine is big enough to be ‘Cock for 2,’ "] , but you also lose points for being unable to defend your statement, and for, you know, being wrong (which also makes you look a fool).
Your batting average on this one makes Pedro look like Ted Williams.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
It's not a huge deal to us, but it matters to the Pirates and it definitely matters to Jones.
Jones has low earnings potential over the course of his professional career, and he probably has roughly 50% of his pre-tax money eaten up by taxes/agents/lawyers/etc. Jones also has a short shelf life in the majors, and probably won’t be able to retire from his playing days alone. If he can win this and doesn’t spend wildly, he can literally remove years of work down the road.
For the Pirates, I view it as the difference between having another $250K Latin American prospect or not have that prospect.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Very Good Point...
This isnt like Pujols and the difference between $5M from the Marlins or the Angels, this is about his life after baseball…He might not get to arbitration ever again, so that $250K could make a huge difference in his post baseball life.
*not having
Sorry its early.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
For the Pirates, I view it as the difference between having another $250K Latin American prospect or not have that prospect.
Ha, so the Pirates lawyers work for free/fixed salaries no matter what they have to do?
by BurgherKing on Feb 16, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
The in-house guys might
Their job is to handle all issues that come up. Sometimes that means arbitration cases and sometimes it doesn’t. I’m fairly certain, though, that they don’t work on an Edgar Snyder contingency basis where “there is no fee unless we get players cheaply for YOU!”
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 16, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Retainer, anyone?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
i was under the impression
that the retainer was simply so they could be called on— the fees for a case being separate.
by BurgherKing on Feb 16, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Well,
here’s one version (short answer)
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
No, but their salaries are probably a sunk cost in this circumstance.
I doubt the Pirates have to pay lawyers more if they pay Jones $2.25 M or $2.50 M. Jones probably pays his agents and potentially lawyers a percentage of his contract, so he would pay more if he won.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I think the point
is that going to arbitration must cost the Pirates more money that not going to arbitration. Even if they don’t use outside counsel, somebody’s doing work that otherwise would go undone. I have trouble believing that the Pirates have $200/hour lawyers whose workload this week was going to be A. 25 hours on the Jones arbitration case, or B. darts in the break room.
Also, where are the hearings? NYC?
None of the sums can be significant, but they’re a bigger chunk of $250k than they are of a more typical arbitration spread. It wouldn’t surprise me if it cost the Bucs $25k or $50k to save the $250k. which is still a win, but smaller than it might appear.
this was exactly my point
however, I do admit that if it costs only about 25 or 50K extra, that’s fine, given the salaries we are talking about…
Isn't this
the Pirates have $200/hour lawyers whose workload this week was going to be A. 25 hours on the Jones arbitration case, or B. darts in the break room.
true of almost any job and any work environment? Aside from the payrate (which is unlikely to be hourly but rather a yearly salary anyway) don’t all jobs have busy times and slow times? Not only that, these schedules are not always predictable. If a construction company is bidding on a project, people might have to work longer hours for a couple of weeks. If you are a salary employee, that doesn’t mean you get more money just because you happened to work more that week.
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 16, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
right, but what i was suggesting (and i have no idea if this is the case or not)
is that the arb lawyers have this work at a specific time of the year, if at all, and are therefore, not salaried employees. I assume they get a little money to be available at this time if need be. If the Pirates go to arb, then they pay the lawyers their fees for the required work, and if not, they don’t.
I'm not positive how the Pirates pay the people that argue in arbitration cases.
Even if they paid them $50K for this few hour period (I’d have a hard time imagining all in the cost was that high), its still a $200K LA prospect which is significant.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Oh, no doubt
As I said, it’s not going to swallow up all, or even a big chunk, of a quarter million. But it probably does make an already small (by MLB standards( sum that much smaller.
Hell, if the hearings are in NYC, you could drop $5k on expenses alone. I know, I know, Nutting is cheap, they probably carpooled in a RentAWreck, took Route 80 (no tolls), weren’t allowed a hotel room, and got a per diem equal to whatever the minor leaguers get. But a regular ML team could drop that much.
Hell, having won the case, Coonley probably OKed dinner at Five Guys instead of McDonalds.
I had Five Guys for lunch today
It was epic win.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I don't mind the Arbitration process
But I was wondering does this process allow for him to be traded still while in arbitration?
or if he gets traded during the process will the Yankees have to restart the Arbitration process again or continue from the 2.25M/2.5M Case?
yes he can be traded
and teh team would have to continue from where the case was.
by BurgherKing on Feb 16, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
It's over:
@BiertempfelTrib
Garrett Jones loses arbitration case against #Pirates. Will get $2.25M. Also, team reached terms w/Casey McGehee before hearing
.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Also from Rob B.:
Casey McGehee and #Pirates settled at midpoint — $2.5375 million — on one-year contract.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
That extra $500 must have made all the difference.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Feb 16, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Well
it would make a ton of difference to me.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 16, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
And me too. It just cracks me up to see that many decimal places in a contract. Not too common.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Feb 16, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
I just don't know what to make of this...
maybe GFJ has his feelings hurt by this and plays like crap all year. Or maybe he gets pissed off at the dissing and works his tail off to prove everyone wrong and plays lights out all year and wins the league MVP. Or maybe he suddenly comes to the realization that now he doesn’t have enough money for his retirement years, so he tries to rob the local mini-mart & gets arrested and misses the entire season. Or perhaps he takes all his money and buys a buch of lottery tickets and wins big, and retires from the game.
This is really maddening stuff
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
Jones has no reason to stop trying to perform at a high level.
He is not rich.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
i could make his salary, after taxes of course, last for a decade at least
to me, hes rich.
by white angus on Feb 16, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
There's not doubt that if you have conservative spending habits that money goes a long way.
But his life expectancy is probably 50 years. He will need to invest prudently and probably work in some capacity after baseball.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
He really doesn't have to be too aggressive with the investment
A current Immediate Annuity, with a 2.5 mil deposit will pay him $114,000 annually until he dies. Guaranteed.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 16, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Huh
That’s much better than I would have guessed.
Of course, he’s not getting a check for $2.5M, but he’s certainly seeing one for well over a million (well, probably 12 for $100k apiece).
FWIW, unless he craters this year, I suspect he’ll earn at least another couple million before he leaves baseball. I wonder if he’s smart enough to sock away every penny.
That's kinda what I was figuring it on
2.5 mil at some time inthe future, 2 or 3 years. Incidentally, hte payout will be bigger annually if he deposits it when older.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 16, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
It would definitely take him a few years to save that up, after tax.
Which is probably a likely scenario, but he is already 30 so who knows how many years he has left. Hopefully he spends conservatively or is taking good advice from somebody.
The annuity looks good up front but with inflation and opportunity cost factored in he wouldn’t want that long term.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Right
but if he is planning on any work after baseball, the annuity would be a constant stream to build upon. With a sapn of payment that long (50+ years) inflation does become problematic, but if he is planning on doing any work after baseball, the steady stream would provide him the opportunity to do other things with his earned income when he decides to work, and give him the opportunity to take any time off in-between without much worry. Also the guaranteed returns are nice vs a volatile stock market. Anyway, the point is, its “comfortable living” money for the rest of his life with very minimal returns needed.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 16, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, presumably
You buy a decent-sized annuity with most of your available cash, you put the rest into long-term index funds, and put your post-retirement salary into a 501(k). If you’re any good at whatever you do after playing, your salary should increase as you age, offsetting the inflationary losses on the annuity.
You know, I’m just an idiot on the internet who doesn’t even have a retirement planª; it’s sad that I’ve got a better sense of how to handle this situation than most MLBers. It’s a shame that Dykstra turned out to be a lying scum, because his concept was actually brilliant – specialized investment services tailored to the income streams of athletes, with enough perks and bling to stroke the egos.
ª not actually true; my plan is to work until I’m dead.
The real sad situations are the NFL and especially the NBA
The NBA makes MLB players look like hedge fund managers. Those guys can spend money more quickly than anyone else on this planet, no contest.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I just hope these guys are getting good advice.
I know the Steelers have approved wealth managers to make sure their players don’t get skunked in the future, hopefully the Pirates (and Penguins) have a similar program.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Oh, and
I’m sure the guy doesn’t actually want to literally never work another day in his life. Unless he has personal pursuits (poetry writing?), he’ll almost certainly want to do something to fill his days. There’s always a team somewhere that’ll pay some nominal salary for an ex-big leaguer (especially one with a bit of a profile, which Jones has – he’s no Bixler).
Or coaching, broadcasting, whatever. 50 years is a long time to do nothing.
by ATribeCalledGreg on Feb 16, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. I wouldn't want to do that but some people may.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Or maybe
he conducts himself as a professional, and does his best, knowing full well that his salary, most likely, will only go up from here.
Do you really see him getting all butthurt over something like this?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
i thought michaelbro8 was kidding
since he pretty much specified the entire range of possibilities, and there’s no real reason for any of those to be “maddening”
by BurgherKing on Feb 16, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps...
I read it the other way, that all of those possibilities made it maddening.
Apologies if I misinterpreted it.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Wow !!!
I was absolutely, totally kidding!!!!
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
I really don't think he'll rob the mini-mart
the lottery tickets on the other hand….
" I think this is probably the best team ever assembled. They talk about the Vince Lombardi Era, but I think the Chuck Noll Era is even greater. " - Mel Blount
Ha!
cool.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 16, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
I have no idea why the Pirates and Jones couldn't split the difference
and agree to sign for $2.375M… going to arbitration over that “little” (relatively speaking, among MLB players in the year 2012) is just beyond stupid.
I can understand the haggling.
Obviously, for starters, $250K is $250K. But in Jones’s case, it sets a baseline for his next two years of arb. That could add up to over $1M when all is said and done.
another way to look at it is that Jones' agent gambled over $250k, and lost
I would have taken a sure $125k than risk losing the arb case… but then, I’ll only make about 3% of what Jones will make this year, so my perception is skewed
Oh, very good point
I actually forgot that. That makes it a much more sensible gamble, on both sides.
Poor
GFJ… Do you think all of his bad basing running plays last year were brought up at his hearing?
I laughed.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
He lost the hearing
because he was in the office down the hall.
by JRoth95 on Feb 16, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Got off the elevator 15 minutes before the meeting
and wasn’t sure if he could make it, so he just stayed where he was until someone tried to move him over. At that point it was too late.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 16, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
another possible point
I think I read somewhere that Jones and McGehee might be comparable players. Winning the hearing with Jones may have given them some leverage to settle with McGehee; and perhaps giving Jones his demands would’ve upped the tab for McGehee.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 16, 2012 1:28 PM EST reply actions
Great point
I did note with interest that McGehee signed basically the moment the Jones hearing ended.
+1
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Got a link
here (don’t worry Charlie, it directs back to BD – more traffic for you!) about a seminar/talk/thingy I went to last year at WVU law school about arbitration.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 16, 2012 3:36 PM EST reply actions
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