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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

This is a long interview with Pirates scouting director Greg Smith. A lot of it deals with Josh Bell.

3 months ago Charlie_tiny Charlie Wilmoth 61 comments 0 recs  | 

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The article immediately following the Greg Smith article is a scouting comparison between Cole and Tallion. Fangraphs must be excited about the Pirates this year, too.

Link.

by Wizard of Woz on Feb 22, 2012 10:02 AM EST reply actions  

out of curiosity

this is not related to these 2 articles, but does anyone else feel that Fangraphs wasn’t able to sustain the hot start they had… even back in the summer of 2010, I used to go very often to read their stuff which had interesting statistical analyses. Now, not so much (I mean, it’s not like they don’t have interesting stuff, but they have a lot more non-interesting stuff)

by BurgherKing on Feb 22, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I haven’t been overwhelmed lately.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Feb 22, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree, although some of it may be due to the offseason

The article that Woz cites, in addition to the interview w/ Greg Smith, is great, substantive stuff that only Fangraphs (at least free) provides.

Plus, their writers don’t (or at least don’t show it) have some predisposed bias to treating the Pirates w/ condescension or question every move made by the FO. Hell, even Pirate blogs do that w/ too much frequency.

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

it's not about the Pirates

i used to like their style in general, and the fact that they were tackling a niche area in a team-independent fashion. I liked both the articles linked on this fanshot (well, one in the comments), but I generally find the articles to be increasingly vague and (kind of) random.

by BurgherKing on Feb 22, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

I use RSS for fangraphs, (so it looks more like work) and I find my self skipping many articles, or reading halfway and not finishing.

by Wizard of Woz on Feb 22, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree wholeheartedly

I stopped reading their site regularly sometime early last year. I don’t recall exactly which writers were involved from the start, but it seems that as they’ve added more writers the overall quality has gone down.

by gorillagogo on Feb 22, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

i do think part of it is

that their simply isn’t enough to make 5-10 posts a day. Finding an interesting factoid itself should take considerable research time.

by BurgherKing on Feb 22, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I read everyone but Jack Moore.....

He seems to be both ignorant of anything outside the Brewers and his writing leaves a lot to be desired, especially in terms of, you know, factual accuracy. He should have been let go yesterday….

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

It really turned me off when they added Dave Cameron. He just does nothing for me as an analyst.

by Vlad on Feb 22, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I take it

you didn’t appreciate his column on how the Nationals didn’t overpay that much for Jayson Werth.

by gorillagogo on Feb 22, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't even see that one.

He’d already lost me with some of the stuff he’d written at USS Mariner.

by Vlad on Feb 22, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The stuff on signing Bell is a good counterpoint to the people who dismissed the signing as the Pirates “just doing what they’re supposed to do.”

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Feb 22, 2012 10:20 AM EST reply actions  

Doesn't a counter-point have to first have a point to counter to?

I’ve never understood that argument, if for no other reason than not all teams do it or even the Pirates prior to NH.

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s one of those desperation arguments where, when you see it, you know the person making it has nothing useful to go on.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Feb 22, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha - agreed

My namesake seems to have made a tidy living based upon the same…..

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

The signing of a first rounder...

is doing what you are supposed to do. Signing Bell went above and beyond.

by Thunder on Feb 22, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

It depends on who the 1st rounder is, obviously

And, despite being ‘what they are supposed to do’, some teams don’t pick the most talented 1st rounder because of financial concerns. Including the Pirates, prior to NH.

So, no, the signing of a 1st Rd’er is not ‘what you are supposed to do’.

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because the Dave Littlefield Pirates didn’t take the best player, or sign their first round choices on occasion, doesn’t mean that they aren’t supposed to do it.

by Thunder on Feb 22, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a period of a few years when most teams were trying to adhere to slots and some guys, mainly Boras clients, fell. Stephen Drew and Jered Weaver one year were regarded as the two top talents but fell to roughly the middle of round one, for instance. At that point just a few teams, mostly in the big markets, were going over slot. By the time DL got his just desserts, many teams were going over slot, but there were quite a few holdouts. When the Pirates’ new FO took over and started outspending everybody, that really seemed to be the death knell for the slotting system. Only a couple teams hung on after that.

IMO, the Pirates were the straw that broke the system once and for all. Unfortunately, their real window of opportunity came during DL’s reign of error, when many teams still didn’t understand the value of draft picks and prospects. DL was at the bottom of the learning scale, so instead of being on the cutting edge like they needed to be, the Pirates were trailing the pack. By the time NH took over, that particular market inefficiency wasn’t there to exploit any more.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Feb 22, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

White Sox, Mets (until Alderson), Yankees, Braves.....

Off the top of my head. The market-inefficiency, as you correctly state, is becoming increasingly rare, but some teams still do their best to provide it.

Saying that the Pirates ‘were supposed’ to pick Alvarez, Taillon, and Cole – without affording them any credit – is a convenient way……of not affording them any credit.

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

What I don't get

and obviously I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember all the hoopla over DL’s hiring was that we WOULD be focusing on the draft and development again. He came from the Marlins, iirc, and they were seen as the up and coming team with young talent all over and most interviews seemed to focus on that.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

this was eggcellent

it was good to hear some from Greg Smith too. Seems like a cool cat and knows what he’s talking about for sure. Even Michel Therrien was impress with this article

by Mingy on Feb 22, 2012 10:36 AM EST reply actions  

also

speaking of fangraphs being excited for the Bucs season. I would like to see what their projected W-L and WAR projections are for us this year. Methinks this might be the best team on paper since the early 90s.

by Mingy on Feb 22, 2012 10:39 AM EST reply actions  

'99 looked strong on paper

As it was, they were a Pythag 81- or 82-game winner. If Kendall hadn’t gotten hurt after 80 games, they were more or less a lock to win 83 or 84.

If Pedro weren’t a 4-win question mark (I think that anywhere between -1 and 3 WAR is a reasonable proguesstion for him), we’d certainly look stronger. As it is, it’s too easy to say “75 wins” on the premise that 2011 was luck.

by JRoth95 on Feb 22, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

ok fine

best team on paper in last ten years. THATS STILL EXCITING

by Mingy on Feb 22, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

Didn’t mean to be a downer. It’s been a long time since ’99.

I think the biggest difference between this team and some of the late Littlefield ones – which, let’s be fair, had some talented players – is that you don’t need to wishcast as much to see them really making a move. With the mid-’00 teams, you needed Pitcher X to blossom, Pitcher Y to maintain his previous year, and Pitcher Z to recover his form from 2 years before, and then on top of that you needed underachievers like Castillo or Duffy to break out.

In contrast, in 2012, Pedro’s the only giant question mark. Lots of guys represent ±1 game swings (e.g., will Tabata be a 1 win letdown or a solid 3 win guy?), but Pedro’s the only guy whose downside is replacement level but we hope he could be above average. If everyone performs right in the middle of their projections, it’s still a 74-77 win team. I might add that this is part of why adding Burnett’s almost-certain 2 wins makes a big difference – not only is he displacing the likely 0 WAR of Correia, but he’s also modulating the wild cards that are Lincoln, Karstens, and the first call up from AAA. Every non-AJB option has/had a downside of 0 wins (or worse), and probably none of them have a real shot at 3+ wins. It’s a big swing in median outcome, which is hard to come by (usually it’s more like Player A is 0-2 WAR, Player B is 1-3, which gives you a max swing of 3 wins and a median swing of 1; AJB has a max swing above 3, but the median is 1.5 or more).

by JRoth95 on Feb 22, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yes times 1000

haha i was thinking about making a longer study fan post of this. we could work together!

nearly EVERY SINGLE ONE of our players pitchers have upside. we are proj at 73.5 wins by Vegas before Burnett. after Burnett that’s prob 75. We have the potential to win 85 though – we really do

by Mingy on Feb 22, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

ah, the optimism of spring

i sure we hope we feel this way after april is over…

by BurgherKing on Feb 22, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm impressed

On the new CBA: (Paraphrasing) Even if we completely understand the implications of the new CBA for our future draft strategy, we’re not going to tell you what they are. Smart. The other 29 teams are our opponents. The enemy is Bud and his friends.

On scouting: He talked a lot about hitting (maybe because of the focus on J. Bell). We drafted a lot of pitchers the first couple of years. Must have been the strategy.

Also, the emphasis on video analysis was interesting. Not a mention of xFIP, FUBAR or other advanced metrics.

On the international market: Eventually, Bud and his friends will level the playing field so the Yankees, Red Sox etc., are protected from the depredations of the evil over-spenders like Pittsburgh. In the meantime, I’d expect even more emphasis overseas. We’ve already gotten our feet wet by signing development projects from India and South Africa, not to mention Lithuanian Lightning. Lots more to do in the Caribbean. Hope the emphasis is on hitting.

Lino Donoso

by Lino Donoso on Feb 22, 2012 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

I agree on the enhanced international emphasis

Because that’s the main area where the new CBA will help the Pirates. In the past a number of big spending, successful teams went big in the international market. Going forward successful teams will have smaller international budgets, so the Pirates will have more to spend than the Yankees or Angels (unless the Pirates win more games). Of course this does not apply to places like Japan, Cuba, etc.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Feb 22, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

From what’s been said to this point…it doesn’t appear that international budgets are going to have the variation in amounts (variance much smaller) that the draft pool is going to have.

Didn’t I see somewhere that all teams were going to get ~$2.9M for this year’s international budget, then start scaling next season?

by Thunder on Feb 22, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Not surprised about advanced metrics

Most teams have thier won groups of stats guys who come up with propitiatory formulas for this type of thing. The advances stats that he looks at are not the ones we have access to, and would be virtually meaningless. I know you take this as a sign that they don’t use them, but its actually the opposite. They use better ones than we can get. When Sabre guys do enough good, they get hired by teams to do advanced stats for them alone (Mike Fast recently was hired by the Astros).

by Wizard of Woz on Feb 22, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd also guess that the garden-variety advanced stats are useless for amateur scouting

xFIP, for instance, depends on the idea that the ratio of home runs given up per fly ball will regress to the mean. This might work for major-leaguers facing major-league competition, but it wouldn’t be at all surprising if some HS pitchers were better or worse at getting HS batters to pop up, or at giving up big home runs to them.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 22, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Same with BABIP, those numbers are pretty static in the MLB, partly because guys who do much worse don’t make it. So, at low levels, less than ideal hr/fb, or babip can actually mean that there is a skill deficiency, and not just bad luck.

by Wizard of Woz on Feb 22, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus you could have been blessed to play at a field with a 350ft CF or 300LF, or doomed to a 375ft power alley :(

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct-o.

Talking to NH and he said Dan Fox figured highly in the process.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 22, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Bell or Sano?

Based purely on hitting without playing position being taken into consideration who is the better hitting prospect?

by Kev S on Feb 22, 2012 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

pretty multifaceted question

If both max out their potential I’d expect Bell to hit for more power but Sano for more contact.

Also, if both max out their potential they’ll both be pretty great players, so it would somewhat get down to personal preference. Most people would probably consider a good-hitting SS a more valuable commodity than a good-hitting OF, but there I go taken position into consideration when you told us not to :)

by Garrett122 on Feb 22, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just curious to see what people thought. I was wondering if they had signed Sano maybe they wouldn’t have taken the risk with Bell. Impossible to answer probably but hopefully they would have. I believe they lost out on Sano more so because of his former agent than the Pirates FO.

by Kev S on Feb 22, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Sano isn't sticking at SS - by anyone's estimation

Plus, if both reached their potential, it would be just the opposite of what you said: Sano would have more power, Bell would have more contact/OBP.

Sano’s power is currently in the Top 5 in the Minors, according to most, if not higher.

by Mr. Smizik on Feb 22, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems like he won’t be sticking at 3B and will likely be a corner outfielder who moves to 1B or DH.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 22, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you mix that up?

Sano is widely regarded to have the best power potential of any prospect other than Bryce Harper. He also has plenty of swing and miss in his game. On the other than, Bell had great power potential, but I think it’s probably 60 on a 20-80 scale (Sano is closer to 70) and scouting reports seem to indicate his swing doesn’t have any major holes so he could hit .280-290+

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 22, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Sano

simply because he’s more proven. Bell hasn’t hit a pro pitch. Sano, who’s actually younger, just put up a .345 ISO in the Appy League.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 22, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Get here faster, baseball!

All this prospect talk is making me hungry to see Bell, et al., blossom, but really just to see some swings taken in anger.

The idea that this could be a legitimately decent, if not quite winning, team is making me giddy at the moment. It will pass, no doubt, but it’s nice to have hopes higher than “Not losing 100”. Or, for that matter, “Maybe we’ll get the #1 overall pick”.

by JRoth95 on Feb 22, 2012 5:35 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Couldn't you just

go out in the front yard and have a catch?

Prolly make you feel better.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 22, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

lol

" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 23, 2012 4:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm surprised nobody singled it out

On how [2010 second-round pick] Stetson Allie’s fastball compares to Cole’s and Taillon’s: "With velocity, it is very much [comparable]. Where Stetson is a little behind those two guys is command and the use of it."

Understatement of the year nominee ?

by From France on Feb 23, 2012 4:30 AM EST reply actions  

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