Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

The Pirates' Supposed Inability To Develop A Shortstop

There's been some ongoing discussion about the Pirates inability develop an above average homegrown shortstop, or to acquire one via trade/free agency. This is a point Dejan Kovacevic has hit numerous times, during his tenure at the PG and now in his current employment at the Trib. The criticism has been directed at the current front office but then in some cases has been extended to previous administrations. Generally, I feel like including the efforts of a previous ownership, front office, or scouting department in such an evaluation is irrelevant - it serves the narrative of the story, because it extends the years of 'ineptitude,' so you can say these guys aren't just 'bad,' they're 'really bad.' But it doesn't say anything about the acumen of current GM, scouting, etc.

My reaction up reading these articles has been, in a sense, a series of questions I've considered:

Star-divide

1) Is it indeed true that the Pirates have been unable to develop an above average or even average MLB shortstop over the past quarter century? The answer to that question is an obvious yes. The shortstops who have put up the Top Four Fangraphs WAR for the Pirates during that period were all acquired via trades (Jay Bell, Jack Wilson, Ronny Cedeno, and Abraham Nunez).

2) While the Pirates weren't able to draft or sign a SS over those years how did the shortstop play of those they acquired compare to the rest of the league? The Pirates' two best SS over the last twenty-five years in terms of Fangraphs WAR were Bell and Wilson, who totaled 25.1 and 14.8 WAR, respectively, with the Pirates. Also during those years Cedeno put up 2.9 WAR and Nunez 0.6.

Looking at Fangraphs WAR, Bell's best years for the Pirates were 1991-1994, in which he put up the following WAR: 4.5, 4.4, 6.6, and 3.6. His total WAR doing those years, 19.1, was second only to Cal Ripken, Jr.

Wilson's peak years were roughly 2004-2007. His Fangraphs WAR during those years were 4.7, 2.4, 0.9, 2.7. His total WAR of 10.7 ties him with Khalil Greene for 13th during that period.

During Bell's best years with the Pirates, he was one of the best shortstops in the game, according to the WAR stat. Wilson was, all told, about average. Ronny Cedeno was well below average -- his WAR of 2.9 ranks him at 31 out of 34 shortstops. (Nunez was obviously well below average also.)

So one shortstop who was above average, one who was about average, and two were below average. I couldn't find an easy way to compare the total WAR of those four players to the other teams in the league over the same period. If anyone knows of one I'd be curious to hear how they stack up. It strikes me, though, that the production the Pirates have gotten at shortstop over those years is probably all told about average, but certainly I could be wrong. That's obviously largely because of Bell, who hasn't played for the Pirates since 1996.

3) What other options are out there? More relevant to the current discussion is an evaluation of the shortstops the Pirates have signed, drafted, and traded for since 2008, when Neal Huntington became GM. They inherited a Jack Wilson who was trending downward and traded him in 2009 for Ronny Cedeno who, while below average, managed at least to stay on the field, as opposed to Wilson, who's been beset with injuries since. Cedeno was five years younger and had still had the potential for upside, so you'd rather have him than Wilson, even if you'd prefer to have neither.

They also signed Chris Gomez who put up -0.2 WAR in one season with the Pirates, and Ramon Vasquez who also totalled -0.2 WAR during his time in Pittsburgh. There was Bobby Crosby, who performed similarly to those two, putting up -0.5 WAR in 2010 (all but 14 of those plate appearances were with the Pirates).

That those guys were bad certainly isn't news. The Pirates also showed interested in trading for JJ Hardy last winter, a move which I know a lot of folks advocated here.

Short of not trading for Hardy, the reality is that there weren't a ton of great options after the handful of elite shortstops, so acquiring a MLB SS isn't easy. There aren't many who are above average.

Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks were discussing this on the Up And In podcast a few months back. The gist of their conversation was that the SS play of the 90's and early 2000's has perhaps resulted in expectations for what kind of player a team show have at the position that don't jive with the current reality.

4) How have the Pirates fared with respect to shortstops in the draft and international signings since 2008? Via the draft, they have Chase D'Arnaud, Jordy Mercer, and Brock Holt in the system. Opinions vary on their career outcomes, but I think the consensus I perceive is somewhere between average to slightly below average starter to utility player.

Internationally the Pirates signed Jodaneli Carvajal, Gift Ngoepe, and Jonathan Barrios in 2008, Alen Hanson in 2009, and Dilson Herrera in 2010.

The Pirates had a chance to draft Manny Machado and Francisco Lindor in 2010 and 2011. In both cases it's hard to fault them for going with the pitcher.

Other top SS prospects who were drafted during those years include Nick Franklin (drafted 27th in 2009), Billy Hamilton (drafted 57th, after Victor Black and Brooks Pounders), Javier Baez (taken 11th in the 2011 draft), and Andrelton Simmons (70th in 2010).

To draft Franklin they would've had to take him No. 4 overall in 2009. They could have had Hamilton rather than the two aforementioned pitchers, and that certainly that looks like a better pick in hindsight, but despite his speed there's still question as whether he can hit in the big leagues.

Other top SS prospects came to their teams via international signings: Jurickson Profar (signed in 2009), Hak-Ju Lee (signed in 2008), Xander Bogaerts (signed in 2009), and Jean Segura (signed in 2007). Hak-Ju Lee has the potential to be an average to above average MLB SS depending on your evaluation of him. Profar is, of course, one of the top prospects in baseball and has an All-Star ceiling, at the very least. Bogaerts looks likely to move to third, from what I've read.

Of the top shortstop prospects, I think it's fair to say maybe half look to be potential above average players and three (Machado, Lindor, and Profar) the potential to be stars. But either way it illustrates the number of potentially excellent players who can stick at SS is pretty limited.

5) To what degree has the Pirates' previous inability to develop an above average shortstop been a direct result of not putting adequate money and resources into international scouting, particularly Latin America, under previous management?

If you take a look at the top 14 shortstops in 2011 according to Fangraphs WAR, nine were signed out of Latin America. Of the top 20 shortstops since 2008, according to that metric, half are Latin American signings.

As noted above, we've seen some international shortstop signings since 2008 when the Pirates finally started taking Latin America seriously. But it will take the Pirates a while to make up the ground they have to cover to catch up with teams who've made Latin America a priority for years. Alen Hanson and Dilson Herrera strike me as the the most promising, from what I've read. Both are currently so far away it's hard to gauge their likelihood of being above average players.

It's true that the Pirates haven't had success developing a SS internally in eons, and also true that the current front office hasn't had success acquiring an above average ML SS thus far (we'll see what happens with Barmes). But I think both of those points require some context. An above average SS is a fairly rare commodity, so it's not usually easy to acquire one. The Pirates had some opportunities to draft one but I don't fault them for instead taking Gerrit Cole and Jameson Taillon. Finally, the majority of above-average shortstops come from Latin America, and until Huntington and Connelly took over the Pirates virtually ignored Latin America.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

Comment 140 comments  |  12 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

This is the type of post that is worth reading.

Nicely thought-out, focused on data, detailed in explaining the options and alternatives.

Wrecked as well.

It's just my two cents. Could be worth more, could be worth nothing.

by Bishop1973 on Feb 23, 2012 8:57 AM EST reply actions  

Good stuff

I don’t think the answer is currently in the system, despite the vast improvement in LA scouting. I’m skeptical Carvajal will hit, Hanson doesn’t seem to have the arm for short, and Herrera played no SS in his first year.

FWIW, BA has three SSs in their draft top 100. Deven Marrero, though, has almost no chance of falling to 1-8 and the other two are ranked 16-17.

Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!

by WTM on Feb 23, 2012 9:06 AM EST reply actions  

I would certainly defer to you on Carvajal, Hanson, and Herrera, all three certainly seem to have some question marks.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

That was a “trip down memory lane” of futility. Also, you could make the argument of the failure to develop outfielders. Only Bonds & McCutchen in the LAST 27 YEARS~!

by GeorgeQUAD on Feb 23, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well done.

I wish I had answers.

SS is traditionally the hardest position to stock – not just for the Buccos, either.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 23, 2012 9:20 AM EST reply actions  

It is hard to do

Here’s a list of shortstops with a WAR of 2.0 or more in 2011. It’s a short list. Just over half were from Latin America.

Troy Tulowitzki, Rockies, 6.3
Jose Reyes, Mets, 6.2
Jhonny Peralta, Tigers, 5.2
Alexei Ramirez, White Sox, 4.9
J.J. Hardy, Orioles, 4.8
Elvis Andrus, Rangers, 4.5
Yunel Escobar, Blue Jays, 4.3
Erick Aybar, Angels, 4.0
Jimmy Rollins, Phillies, 3.8
Asdrubal Cabrera, Indians, 3.6
Starlin Castro, Cubs, 3.4
Emilio Bonifacio, Marlins, 3.3
Clint Barmes, Astros, 3.1
Marco Scutaro, Red Sox, 2.9
Brendan Ryan, Mariners, 2.6
Derek Jeter, Yankees, 2.3
Sean Rodriguez, Rays, 2.3
Alcides Escobar, Royals, 2.2
Jamey Carroll, Dodgers, 2.2

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Feb 23, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

see, this is why I have a problem with WAR... lemme 'splain

lets compare JJ Hardy and Elvis Andrus. Both are good fielders and decent hitters, with Hardy being a more complete defender and also delivers much more thump with the stick. But they are nearly neck n neck in 2011 in terms of production???

Is Andrus’ range at SS that much better where he gets a bump in his placement on that list? I admit his OBP is fairly good and his speed is nice…

by white angus on Feb 23, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

The difference between them, if you believe the numbers, is that Hardy is the better hitter and Andrus is the better baserunner. Andrus is so good on the bases that he makes up for not hitting as well as Hardy.

by epoc on Feb 23, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean...

Other than hit for power, Andrus appears to have had a better season in nearly every facet.

Higher OBP, higher avg, more runs scored, more hits, more sb..

Granted, Hardy hit for way more power, and had less errors as he’s a much more experienced defender. Andrus is quicker so his range is better.

Looking at everything, I’d have guessed their WAR was slightly in favor of Hardy, and it was.

by jlk9697 on Feb 23, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting point

That many of them came from Latin America. I’ve read in places before that many scouts feel that American players (collegiate especially) feel that SS prospects are over coached and too stiff to play SS, where as Latin players are more creative and fluid in their movements. It was an interesting perspective, I’ll try to find the link.

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass

by glass0941 on Feb 23, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It's been a long time...

since the Pirates had a homegrown SS that produced more than one 2+ WAR (bbref) season. The last one to have multiple 2+ WAR seasons while remaining a member of the Pirates…Gene Alley. Freddie Patek came up while Alley was still playing and had several 2+ seasons with KC.

by Thunder on Feb 23, 2012 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

I agree/Disagree

You make a point but it is not limited to SS nor is the issue just the Pirates. Can anyone recall the Pirates developing a Ace Pitcher-ever? How about a catcher, 3B, 1B, OF?

In the last 25 years, the only strong player from the Pirates system has been Barry Bonds. Also possible Aramis Ramirez-but he really only because very good after he left the Bucs. McCutchen might be the next one, but he has yet to prove it.

Never in the history of the franchise have we developed a HOF starting pitcher.

That is why one of the first things NH/FC did was to revamp the Minor League system. They felt that the lack of prospect development was an issue and it needed to be addressed in two way. First is to get better talent. Second, improve the coaching in the minors to develop the talent. Time will tell if they have done the right things.

by zogger on Feb 23, 2012 10:45 AM EST reply actions  

because he technically hasnt.

hes had one good season and then a better half season. once he really comes on, then we can say such things. right now, his best season was close to McLouths best season, and we really shouldnt/couldnt compare the two.

by white angus on Feb 23, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh

but Cutch is trending up, was the 20th best player in baseball last year, and has no hole or red flags in his game.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 23, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

hole

McCutchen strikeouts are too high batting 3rd in the lineup.

by GeorgeQUAD on Feb 23, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno about that. Cutch’s career MLB K% is 16.3 (although it increased to 18.6 last year). Looking at the guys who are considered the top #3 hitters, I’m not sure that’s a lot:

Ryan Braun – 17.6
Adrian Gonzalez – 17.9
Justin Upton – 23.9
Joey Votto – 18.4
Carlos Gonzalez – 21.6
David Wright – 18.8
Mark Teixera – 17.2
Evan Longoria – 19.8
Josh Hamilton – 18.2
Jose Bautista – 19.6
Ryan Zimmerman – 16.8

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Those guys all also put up much better power numbers (HR specifically) than Cutch. I don’t think Cutch would be a #3 hitter on a competent hitting squad. I would rather him be in the 1 or 2 hole. The power hitting allows them to have the higher K numbers.

by pskell02 on Feb 23, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Cutch can hit 25-30 homeruns with his fair share of doubles and triples if he puts it all together, which I think it plausible. I think he could equal Wright, Hamilton, Upton, Zimmerman, and CarGo in terms of OPS. His pre-all star game ops was .895. I think he’s capable of doing that for entire season. Had he last year he would’ve been 19th in the league.

I’d like him to strike out a little less, in 2011 his K% was 13.6. Obviously to make any of those strides he needs to be consistent for the whole season. He struck out a ton in the final months of the season which pushed his K% way up. His K% by month was:

Mar/April – 20.5
May – 13.4
June – 17.4
July – 15.2
Aug – 20.0
Sept/Oct – 26.3

Maybe you could argue he’s not quite there in terms of what you’d like from a #3 hitter ideally but I think it’s not unlikely he makes the kind improvements over the next two years that would make him one of the better ones in the league

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

25-30 HR consistently if he played in a different park. I agree with you that he has all that potential, but until he reaches it, his K rate is too high and if we had a better power hitting option, he shouldn’t be batting 3rd.

I’m not taking anything away from Cutch. He is the best player we have had in a long time and I think he will be a superstar eventually. I tend to temper my expectations as far as power output goes. I think him playing to his strengths and hitting gap shots for doubles and triples will make him an all around better hitter. His K numbers, I suspect, would drop significantly if he isn’t trying to deposit ball over the left field fence.

by pskell02 on Feb 23, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that in the post-steroid era a #3 hitter with 20-25 homeruns who can hit for average and extra bases (all of which seems feasible for Cutch) is a good deal more than adequate.

He would certainly be better served by less frequently looking to go long. Hopefully that’s a lesson he learned after the second half of last year.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 25, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Hope you're right about that.

If McCutchen continues to perform as he did in the second half of 2011, it’s probably fair to say that he’ll be the biggest disappointment for Pirate fans since Y2K.

That thought has me wondering….. Which players HAVE been the Pirates’ biggest disappointments since Y2K? I guess Alvarez would be high on the list, right now at least.

by magnumo on Feb 25, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Oliver Perez? I may be overlooking someone but sadly I’m not sure the Pirates have had anyone with that upside until the last few years.

I’m normally hesitant when making forecasts as optimistic as my Cutch projection for any Pirate as I’m hyperconscious about not engaging in wishful thinking.

However I think his combination of ability and work ethic makes him a pretty solid bet to put it all together. Also it seems like he’s very much aware of cause of his issues in the latter half of 2011 (i.e. trying too often to hit for power, etc) so I feel confident he’ll correct that.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 25, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Duke after that debut… Snell, after 2008, either LaRoche. ..

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 25, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm,

We may have enough candidates for a Pirates’ Top 10 Biggest Disappointments list:

Pedro Alvarez, Oliver Perez, Zach Duke, Ian Snell, Adam and Andy LaRoche.

That’s six already (although I hope Alvarez drops off the list this season). I wonder if Chad Hermansen should be on there? Or Kris Benson?

by magnumo on Feb 26, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Bullington, Aki, JVB, Burnett, Bradley, Morris? Jim Tracy?

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 26, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Andy Van Slyke (if they really preferred him over Bonds)? Bobby Hill? And you mean Bryan Morris, not Matt Morris, right? Did anyone expect Matt Morris to NOT be terrible?

by SuperBaes on Feb 26, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Does Littlefield count for that last question?

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 27, 2012 2:36 AM EST up reply actions  

maybe he meant warren morris?

by rj.reynolds on Feb 27, 2012 4:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Should we do this?

I’m asking whether we should run a poll about the Pirates biggest dissappointments (similar to the BD Community’s top 30 prospects list).

- On one hand, it seems kind of negative.

- On the other, there seems to be some interest.

I could see starting a new thread, listing the “nominees” already suggested here, and requesting others….. then running a process like the prospect poll.

Whaddayathink?

by magnumo on Feb 27, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Catcher...yes...

Kendall, pre-injury. Certainly not HoF level, but certainly All-Star level. It’s telling that the Pirate all time leader in HR as a catcher for a season is Jim Pagliaroni with 17.

3B…Bonilla was an All-Star at 3B before he left. He was signed as a Pirate…but had the brief Rule V trip to the White Sox. Ramirez after he left Pittsburgh. Hebner probably would have been a multiple season All Star in the days of expanded All Star rosters.

1B…Only if you want to count Stargell. And I think that he’s more appropriately a LF.

The appropriate point being that with very few exceptions, it’s been a long time in developing a star at most positions.

OF…Bonds, Stargell, Oliver, Parker

Pitchers…I’d have to go back as far as Candelaria to get to a home grown guy that would be close to being considered an ace. Prior to that, maybe Bob Friend. Certainly no one on a HoF level though.

by Thunder on Feb 23, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Certainly not HoF level, but certainly All-Star level.

If Kendall maintains his pre-thumb level of play through age 30, and then has a normal decline phase, he’s an easy HOF.

by Vlad on Feb 23, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I think some people tend to downplay how good of a player Kendall was. Bball-ref lists Kendall with 5 seasons (out of his 9) of 4+ overall WARs while with the Pirates (and that’s with little help from his defensive WAR, which was rarely a positive.) This included a 5.9 offensive WAR in 1998! Can you imagine if the Pirates could get nearly a 6 WAR out of their catcher these days??

Along those same lines, I think Giles gets downplayed, as well. In his 4 full seasons with the Bucs, his lowest overall WAR was 5.3 (and that was after a -1.5 defensive WAR was factored in.) His offensive WAR numbers in his 4 Bucs seasons: 6.4, 6.7, 6.2, 6.8. Pretty impressive, especially when you consider that McCutchen’s highest offensive WAR so far has been 4.8.

I assume a lot of it has to do with the public personna of these two guys being jerks. But, they sure were phenomenal hitters for the Bucs.

by impliedi on Feb 23, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Can anyone recall the Pirates developing a Ace Pitcher-ever?

Yeah, a whole bunch. Most recent was probably Candelaria.

In the last 25 years, the only strong player from the Pirates system has been Barry Bonds.

Emphatically not true – somebody forgot about pre-thumb Jason Kendall.

Never in the history of the franchise have we developed a HOF starting pitcher.

No, but we’ve developed a whole bunch who are about six inches on the wrong side of the line.

by Vlad on Feb 23, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

In the last 25 years, the only strong player from the Pirates system has been Barry Bonds.

Emphatically not true – somebody forgot about pre-thumb Jason Kendall.

Is it too early to call Andrew McCutchen a “strong player” then??

by impliedi on Feb 23, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Most recent was probably Candelaria

You could make a decent case for John Smiley

by KentuckyPirate on Feb 24, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

This post was predominantly in response to the ‘meme’ DK initiated which was SS specific.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno.

People talk about how important it is to have a good shortstop, but do you realize that the 79 Pirates won the World Series with Tim Foli playing there? Or that the 71 Pirates had Gene Alley and Jackie Hernandez playing there? Of course, having someone like Honus Wagner or Dick Groat helps a lot….

You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu

by IAPiratesFan on Feb 23, 2012 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

Certainly you can be weak at pretty much any of the eight positions if you have enough talent elsewhere to make up for it. I don’t think you need an above average shortstop to compete.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

Yep. RF was pretty abysmal in 1992 and almost every year since then….

You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu

by IAPiratesFan on Feb 23, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

If you can’t hit a ton at least have awesome goggles like, Alex Cole.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.

The Indians always had ugly uniforms, huh?

You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu

by IAPiratesFan on Feb 23, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think so.

The internet says he only drew 18 months, and that was back in 2002.

Man, could he ever run.

by Vlad on Feb 24, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

whoa, I missed that completely

That’s a damned shame.

(That he turned to crime, I mean, not that he got out.)

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 24, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

i remember him taking bating practice back in high school...

… and looking completely lost at the plate. now part of that was our coach threw like a girl but still, Cole was pretty much awful with a stick.
but he could get down that line quick. most of his hits he beat out.

by white angus on Feb 24, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

very sad, I had no idea
In 2002, he plead guilty to possession of heroin, with the intent to distribute, and served 18 months in jail. Four years later, a judgment in excess of $30,000.00 was entered against him for running up credit-card bills under a friend’s name and then not repaying them.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26155-tales-from-the-teepee-vol-eight-alex-cole

by gonfalon on Feb 24, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope

for his sake it was not Joey Belle’s credit card. If it was he has bigger problems than a $30,000 judgment.

"Don Mossi was the complete five-tool ugly player. He could run ugly, hit ugly, throw ugly, field ugly and ugly for power.

by Pagliaroni on Feb 24, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Foli and Alley

were pretty decent SS.

________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 24, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Any way we can pry Profar or Andrus from the Rangers?

Perhaps if Burnett has a big rebound year and the Rangers need help we can send something like..

AJ Burnett, Joel Hanrahan, Robbie Grossman for Profar?

We have plenty of chips to deal. I’d be ecstatic if we could land Profar for anything other than Cole/Taillon/Bell.

by jlk9697 on Feb 23, 2012 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

unless Profar struggles with his promotion in 2012.

but he hit well in a pitchers league, so i wouldnt bet on him struggling too badly.

by white angus on Feb 23, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

i was wondering

that’s a lot… i mean, if we are stocked at those positions, I could see taking the chance, but oof…

by BurgherKing on Feb 23, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i was talking from the Rangers perspective

no way you’re getting ‘now’ Profar for that

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

ha...

i’d stay away then. Of course, a trade like that predicates on the fact that Burnett is pitching very well, and so is Hanrahan. If you can get 2 guys like that for a stretch run (and both under contract for at least another year) and you have Andrus, I’d have to be very certain to not give up a guy who hasn’t yet gotten to High A, in spite of his phenomenal performance in A.

by BurgherKing on Feb 23, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

McCutchen would probably be the Rangers’ target.

by bolton on Feb 23, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Andrus

I think Andrus would be considerably cheaper. He’s cost-controlled for 3 years and will only be 25 when he hits FA. If they dealt Andrus in a “we need arms for the stretch” this year, I imagine Barmes would go back (assuming he wasn’t playing terribly) to cover the position for the rest of 2012 and possibly the beginning of 2013; whenever Profar’s ready.

Now, paying Andrus after he hits FA? Not sure that’s a something the Pirates would do; but he’s a more valuable piece than Barmes if they flip him again… so it would all depend on the package they’re giving up for him.

by SuperBaes on Feb 24, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Stephen Drew

he was a guy I targeted before Arz came out of nowhere last year. If he’s healthy and the DBacks fall off some he’s a FA to be that could come relatively cheap.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If Drew recovers from his injury, he’ll be very expensive as a free agent. Not many shortstops have the ability to hit 20 homers, and I presume Boras is his agent.

by bolton on Feb 23, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean, he did that once, in 663 PAs, 4 years ago. Assuming we could move Barmes and still have no SS in the minors, I’d rather give him 4/40 than Edwin Jackson.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

excellent post, recommended

but I would include Miguel Sano in the discussion… the Pirates offered him a $2.6M deal, but never got a chance to counteroffer the Twins’ deal.

that said, Sano might end up at 3B and not SS

by gonfalon on Feb 23, 2012 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

actually

there’s already reports that he might not stick at 3B either, and might have to move into RF. Still a valuable player in RF, but definitely not the amazing player he’d be if he could stick at SS.

by Tuckshop25 on Feb 23, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

The report at the time was that he’d probably move to 3B, no?

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Miguel Sano

He would be Pirate today if they adhered to Miguel Sano’s simple request. It was not about the money. He wanted privacy. Gayo was on him and his family “like a fly on shit.” If the Pirates respected his sole demand, he would be our savior at shortstop.

by GeorgeQUAD on Feb 23, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It would great to have him but he wouldn’t be playing SS, that’s for sure.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

his agent's demand

Weren’t there reports that Sano called up Plummer crying, asking why he wouldn’t let him sign with the Pirates? That doesn’t sound like a guy who felt Gayo had violated his privacy.

What happened was that the Pirates annoyed his agent by talking to Sano directly, and the agent decided not to give the Pirates a chance to make the high bid.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 23, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

in his brief MiLB career, Sano's made a sh!tload of errors at both 3B and SS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=sano—001mig

so perhaps Sano shouldn’t be included in the discussion after all. hopefully his glove will develop at one position or another.

by gonfalon on Feb 23, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree in principle

but 16 E in 34 games at SS (.884 fielding %), and 32 E in 84 games at 3B (.897), doesn’t bode well no matter how much salt you use

by gonfalon on Feb 24, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

very true

Jeter has stuck around long enough to accumulate -14.7 dWAR (bbref) and -48.9 UZR at SS

by gonfalon on Feb 24, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

well regardless, sano will be playing the outfield going forward it sounds like.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 24, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The shame...

of the Pirates not taking Latin America seriously over the last 15-20 years…is that the Pirates used to be famous for finding Latin ballplayers.

by Thunder on Feb 23, 2012 11:13 AM EST reply actions  

Yep.

Howie Haak was a great scout, and Clemente’s name was a good way to get a foot in the door.

by Vlad on Feb 23, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I think this is a point that can't be overstressed.

Right now two of the top 10 in the BD Community Prospects are Latin. Trying to build a team with a handful of Latin prospects is a fool’s game, but that was the plan for years.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Feb 23, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I have a hard time

throwing this regime in with other Pirate ownership and mngt. True they were all Pirate teams but this team has been so radical in their approach to prospect acquisitions compared to others that I don’t believe it is fair to include them with the others certainly not the previous 15 yrs.

There may have been mistakes made but to blame this team because they don’t have a budding allstar at SS after only four yrs is absurd especially starting with an empty system to begin with.

by oldfrothingslosh on Feb 23, 2012 12:45 PM EST reply actions  

I don’t disagree, as I mentioned in the post. What the Pirates did under Cam Bonifay or Dave Littlefield, etc has little to do what’s happening today. I included it in this post (w/ that caveat) for some context.

To play devil’s advocate to your second point, all of mlb.com top ten ss prospects with the exception of jean segura were drafted or signed since Neal took over, I believe. As noted above this doesn’t mean the Pirates could or should have signed them however.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder though, if the Pirates farm system wasn’t so barren to start with 4 years ago, perhaps NH would have had the flexability to take one of those shortstops.

All Star SS are hard to fine (probably expensive too) and probably arent going to be the key peice in a championship team (unless they bring great D).

Starting Pitching on the other hand is very important and until the Pirates get a steady train of quality pitching prospects moving up, they’re probably going to miss out on some good position players here and there.

by Seven_Patch on Mar 6, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Please excuse the spelling, don’t have spell check on my work PC internet.

by Seven_Patch on Mar 6, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

machado

because of his top of the draft rating, the position he played and the fact that the comparative odds are against a pitching project vs a position player (largely due to injory potential), I would have preferred Machado over Taillon. I mention that only in the context of this post. It’s not something I’m losing sleep over.

by mocasdad on Feb 23, 2012 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

There was a lot of speculation he wouldn’t stick at SS circa the draft if I recall correctly? Although it seems more likely that will now, based on what I’ve read.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember the same thing

And I fall on the same side as mocasdad: I like Machado better, but I’m not against the Taillon selection, either.

Also, R.J.: two of the three you mentioned with the potential to be stars (Machado, Lindor) were from the past two drafts. How much does that change if the Pirates end up with Devin Marrero or Carlos Correa? Or if Kenny Diekroger goes nuts in the CWS? Or one of the kids (Gavin Cecchini, Addison Russell, C.J. Hinojosa) gets hot and shoots up draft boards? I think criticizing the Pirates lack of high-end SS prospects is fair (and I’d certainly rather have any of the prospects you mention than Barmes/Mercer/D’Arnaud/all three), but I’m not ready to applaud Baltimore or Cleveland for Machado or Lindor until one of them makes an impact on the MLB level.

Not completely related, but how common/successful are teams with acquiring other teams’ SS prospects? I know Pittsburgh got Sanchez because of Hanley, and my first thought while reading this was Miami, with 2 of the top SS in the game without actually developing either.

by SuperBaes on Feb 24, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I should add that I wasn’t necessarily criticizing them but rather considering criticisms I’d heard.

As I mentioned above I can’t argue with drafting Cole and Taillon. I certainly agree with the notion that you can’t draft for need in the MLB draft. While the Pirates could have had almost all of those guys, it’s hard to critical of them for not making those picks. Sure you’d rather have Billy Hamilton than Victor Black at this point, but as I said it doesn’t even seem like a certainty that he can hit ML pitching, despite his prospect status. Certainly we would’ve all loved it if they’d signed Profar in 2009 but that may have been more than a matter of $ (I don’t know?) Texas has been very aggressive in LA and may’ve had a relationship with him that went back several years.

My thought after considering all this is that the Pirate simply need to continue mprove their scouting, so as identify players around whom there’s less of a consensus in later rounds of the draft and to continue their efforts in LA. Especially in light of the new rules regarding the draft.

To your last point. That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about that. The two scenarios in which the Marlins acquired top shortstops were in a post WS firesale, in which they traded Beckett and Lowell and then by spending lavishly in free agency.

Of course you can always get lucky like the Ozzie Smith/Garry Templeton trade (lucky if you’re St Louis that is)

by rj.reynolds on Feb 24, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Surprisingly, it seems like the Pirates have never bottomed out like that

I’m not even sure a bottoming out of that degree is possible for them. It may be sacrilege to say, but how hard do the Pirates think about trading McCutchen for a Profar-centric package this year or this offseason (if Profar doesn’t debut, yet)? The system’s teeming with OF prospects and if they don’t get an extension to buy out at least a year or two of Cutch’s FA years… this might be the time to insure they have a solid core when the Taillons and Coles start making their way to Pittsburgh.

From Texas’ standpoint: I’m not sure they’ve decided not to build a team around Hamilton, but it appears clear that they don’t think that’s prudent at this time. Disregarding all of his off-field risks, he’s very injury-prone and almost certain to miss time here and there. The Darvish signing doesn’t preclude them extending him… but the fact that they didn’t openly renounce the idea of Prince going there and lock in Hamilton at that time doesn’t bode well for their long-term opinion of him.

by SuperBaes on Feb 24, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Since I love making lists....

Just looked at all of the drafts the Pirates have had since the Bonds draft in 1985 and using total career WAR from BBall-red (not a great comparison, but an easy one), here’s the 15 best position players and pitchers that have come up through the Pirates minor league organization….

Since the 1985 draft:
15 Best Pitchers (career WAR):
Tim Wakefield (30.9)
Bronson Arroyo (19)
Rick Reed (18)
Chris Young (12.2)
Kris Benson (11)
Paul Maholm (10.2)
Mike Gonzalez (7.4)
Zach Duke (7.1)
Randy Tomlin (6.1)
Matt Capps (6.1)
Stan Belinda (5.3)
Joe Beimel (4.9)
Steve Cooke (4.3)
Brian Shouse (4.3)
Tom Gorzelanny (3.6)

The Pirates also drafted Jeremy Guthrie (17.4), Scott Baker (14.3), Dustin Hermanson (9.9) and Chris Capuano (9.7), who would have made this list, but they didn’t sign with the Bucs.

Top 15 position players (Career WAR)
Barry Bonds (171.8)
Jason Kendall (37.7)
Jeff King (14.7)
Jose Bautista (14.1)
Andrew McCutchen (12.4)
Nyjer Morgan (7.2)
Nate McLouth (7.1)
Ryan Doumit (6.1)
Kevin Young (5.1)
Rob Mackowiak (4.8)
Rajai Davis (4.6)
Chris/Ben Shelton (3.6)
Neil Walker (3.6)
Jeff Keppinger (3.1)
Willie Greene (2.6)

The Pirates also drafted, but didn’t sign: Stephen Drew (10.7), Tom Goodwin (6.3), Mickey Morandini (5.0), and Willie Harris (3.4)

by impliedi on Feb 23, 2012 1:53 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

And furthering the lists...looking pre-Bonds draft....

Top pitchers to come through Pirates org (1965-1984 drafts):
John Candelaria (38.8)
Rick Honeycutt (19.4) – though he doesn’t really county since he was only in the Bucs org for a season
John Smiley (18.7)
Don Robinson (17.9)
Ed Whitson (17.3)
Gene Garber (16.0)
Bruce Kison (14.4)
Dave Dravecky (13.5)
Jose DeLeon (12.7)

Chris Bosio (23.4) would have made the list, but he didn’t sign with the Bucs

Top position players (1965-1984 drafts)
Willie Randolph (60.5)
Dave Parker (37.8)
Richie Hebner (35.2)
Riche Zisk (23.7)
Dave Cash (20.5)
Freddie Patek (19.3)
Bip Roberts (18.4)
Milt May (14.2)

Lance Johnson (28.5) would have made this list, but he didn’t sign with the Bucs.

To be honest, these lists are pretty sad-looking. But, I don’t think the problem is just at SS. The Pirates have historically not done a great job of drafting and developing talent across the board.

by impliedi on Feb 23, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Wow...

Gorzo, with a career 3.6 WAR cracks the Pirates top 15 starters drafted since 1985.

Anyone else find that horribly, horribly depressing?

by jlk9697 on Feb 23, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Even more depressing...

… the top four pitchers on the post-1985 list produced most of their WAR after they left the Bucs.

by GreatCthulhu on Feb 23, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Depresssed me

Most of the players with higher WAR totals (besides Kendall) accumulated them for other teams, including Bonds. Ugh.

by SuperBaes on Feb 24, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Jose DeLeon

May be a forgotten name today, but he was a young pitcher with great stuff, who showed promise early on. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out, and I think DeLeon was traded to the Chisox later on.

by SteelStealth on Feb 23, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And, of course....

this doesn’t count all of the amateur free agents who came up through the Bucs system, like Tony Pena (18.7) or guys like Dock Ellis(15.2) who the Pirates signed before the draft came into being.

by impliedi on Feb 23, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And the sad part...

about those top 15 post-Bonds draft pitchers…the top 4 earned most of that WAR after the Pirates cut/traded them.

Wakefield 2 WAR as a Pirate, 28.9 as a Red Sox. Released.
Arroyo -0.8 WAR as a Pirate, 20.2 elsewhere. Waived.
Reed -1.5 WAR as a Pirate, 19.3 elsewhere. Released.
Young no appearances as a Pirate, 12.2 elsewhere, traded in the infamous Matt Herges trade.

Considering that Kris Benson only had 8.7 WAR as a Pirate, that makes Paul Maholm the ONLY Pirate pitcher to have 10 WAR since the 1985 draft.

by Thunder on Feb 23, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

One of the most overlooked arguements

finally gets mention in this point. There flat out aren’t a lot of elite shortstops like their used to be. Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Ripken Jr., Larkin and more set the bar extremely high when they were playing. Hell, in 1998, 4 guys put up a WAR over 6.0. Just two did so last season. In 2010, only 1 player did.

I suppose what I’m trying to say is elite level shortstops just aren’t very common, and we were spoiled in the late 1990s when they were.

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass

by glass0941 on Feb 23, 2012 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, in the Up and In episode I referenced Kevin and Jason talked about how prior to the 90’s and 2000’s the expectation for a shortstop was a good glove and if he could hit that was a bonus. Obviously there were exceptions like Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken Jr, etc. In any case their view was that in the post steroid the shortstop crop is more similar to what you saw in the late 70’s early 80’s, when the top guys at shortstop were Dave Concepion and Garry Templeton. Whether it’s because of steroids or because things are simply cyclical (or both) I don’t know. But I think the 90’s and 2000’s probably effected people’s SS expectations.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

while too early to know what..

guys like Chase, Jordy and Holt may end up being .. i would guess solid if unspectacular starters to utility men.. it seems even in the DL era we’ve taken roughly the same type of player at ss.. meaning college infielder who should develop fairly quick without the upside. i think with guys like Hanson and Herrera or a high school phenom type is where you’re going to find that true ‘superstar’ type talent because those guys dont grow on trees. it just seems that we’ve gone the route of ’let’s find stars at other positions and get a solid guy for short’ since that is what has largely been available to us draft-wise.

if you remember as recently as ’07 we had a top 100 prospect at ss who also finally found his footing in 2011 albeit as a utiliyy guy .. 6 years after he was drafted.

Brent Lillibridge and Brian Bixler have become ‘useful’ in their roles and this is what we may be looking at with Chase, Jordy, and Holt… hopefully Clint fills the gap nicely until we either draft a high school phenom or sign an intl stud. until then it looks like ‘solid’ and ‘useful’ is where we are going to hope to be

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 4:08 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting Article

I got really bored and felt the need to waste some time so I decided to do some half ass research/analysis at Fangraphs.

I basically got a list of every SS who has averaged a WAR better than .5 over the past 10 years, then 5 years, then 3 years. It was a pretty good, long list.

Then I looked up which teams drafted/signed each player and kept a score card for each team.

21 teams made the list. 9 teams have not drafted or signed a SS that has been consistently decent at the MLB level over the past decade.

10 teams drafted/signed 2 shortstops that qualified.

3 teams got 3 shortstops.

2 teams got 4. (Boston and Seattle)

Keep in mind that some of these guys aren’t even SS’s. If I cut it down to players who actually start at SS everyday, that list goes down significantly. Also, a significant amount of these never played for the teams that originally drafted/signed them.

Bottom line is that, yes the Pirates have done a poor job of developing SS’s, but they aren’t alone. It’s not an easy task by any means and their failure is not really unusual when compared to the rest of the league.

by BillBraskie on Feb 23, 2012 4:19 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, above average shortstops are in short supply. My sense when reading DK’s writing on the subject was that he didn’t provide that context.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

hindsight..J.J. Hardy

would have been great but he was also coming off 2 years of Clint Barmes type numbers with Bedard-like injury history. would he have gotten the ‘punt’ treatment or the ‘another DL type deal’ if we had traded for him and Brendan Harris?

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 4:38 PM EST reply actions  

i know..me too

but in greater Pirate Nation how would have this been perceived? i guess if Cedeno was coming off a “gold glove” type year would have made a difference.. but would Hardy be worth 7mil to us now if he didnt have those AL Central inflated numbers? i guess then maybe he wouldnt have received 7 mil a year :)

was he worth 6mil with his history from 09-10 .. nope.

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

but in greater Pirate Nation how would have this been perceived?

If NH is worried about that, we are in deep trouble…

by BurgherKing on Feb 23, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

NH isnt worried..

the article is about ‘supposed inability’ which is something brought on by us fans and media. so even if we did trade for Hardy , chances are we would still be having this conversation

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t sign Overbay and you’ve already covered 5/6ths of Hardy’s 2011 salary. We still had room to take on several million of D Lee and Ludwick at the deadline so we know payroll flexibility wasn’t the issue.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i think the issue at the time was

6 mil for a guy who was chronically injured and putting up Cedenoesque numbers

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

He had missed ~100 games total the two previous years but had also put up 4 WAR.
He was at least even money to be an equal hitter to Lyle, we had a cheap and competent backup in case of injury, and he had serious bounce back potential.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

but he would have been throwing to what at first? plus i doubt bounceback would have applied at PNC with a .300 obp…and then we’d still be looking.

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

no, of the SS in play last offseason

Bartlett, Hardy and Ryan, I mentioned several times that Hardy was really the only guy I wanted, and would have been willing to give up a ZVR/Dodson like prospect for (neither of those 2 specifically would have been eligible to be traded, I think, but you get the idea). Given the return the Twins got, I was really disappointed we didn’t manage it.

by BurgherKing on Feb 23, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan would have been a nice pickup as the UT guy over JRod and with hindsight, as a replacement for Ronny altogether. I can’t remember what he was ultimately traded for but I imagine it was pretty cheap.

"What up no wings"

by Mr. E on Feb 23, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah there was a fairly substantial consensus that the Pirates should after Hardy last season on Buc’s Dugout as I recall and that was without the benefit of hindsight.

by rj.reynolds on Feb 23, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont want Ryan at all

the bat’s just too bad for a ML team… much rather have stuck with ronny//./

by BurgherKing on Feb 23, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

i wanted Hardy too although i can see why they ultimately passed

6mil for an oft-injured guy putting up low ops for maybe 1 year and prospects or an in house guy with upside potential at much less in what was probably going to be a losing season anyway

by patient pirate on Feb 23, 2012 5:19 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Mlb_photo_1367_small
Fixing the Pirate offense: Plate Discipline

Recent FanPosts

Small
Who'd of "Plunked" it? Shades of Jason Kendall
Small
Runs . . . Any way you can get them
Pirates_1908_small
gamethread vs cubs 5/26/12
Smiling_small
A little background on the offense
Insetcommodoreperry_small
Guess the Score Game 47: Cubs @ Pirates
Insetcommodoreperry_small
Guess the Score Game 46: Cubs @ Pirates
Small
A cheerful look at our offseason additions
Small
Pedro's Defensive Contributions
A_red_spider_web_on_a_black_background_0071-0911-1622-1329_smu_small
A couple guys that could help the Buccos offense
178896_499126548441_596563441_5939410_7960015_n_small
The Pirates Pitchers Have Adopted Their Own Sign: The FU!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Charlie_small Charlie Wilmoth

Editors

18470r_small Vlad

Davidtodd_small David Todd

Authors

Img_1692_small WTM

Mark_profile_pic_small MarkInDallas