Pedro Alvarez first in at-bats, Josh Harrison second in fWAR
As Tim Williams noted
As of the end of the 2011 season, only eight players from the entire 2008 draft class have produced a career 2.0 WAR or better, according to Baseball-Reference. That just shows that it’s too early to be expecting any team to have a player in the majors at this point, especially guys after the first round
Still, we keep expecting that our players will speed through the minors. Unlikely to happen. To make this a bit more concrete, here are the current outcomes for players drafted in the first ten rounds by NL Central teams. As the headline suggests, Pedro Alvarez has the most at-bats, and Josh Harrison (who was drafted by the Cubs) is second (to Brett Lawrie) in fWAR through 2011. Only 15 of the 67 draftees have had any playing time in the majors. There is also the interpretation question: Does ML playing time signal a good draft or a bad ML team? Based on fWAR, Milwaukee has had the best draft so far. Of course, with seven choices in the first three rounds, Milwaukee should have. Of course it's all due to Lawrie.
Here are the complete results
|
Round |
# |
Player |
Position |
School |
IP/AB |
fWAR |
Level |
|
Chicago |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
19 |
RHP |
Texas Christian |
65 |
-0.2 |
MLB |
|
|
1s |
41 |
SS |
Vanderbilt |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
2 |
65 |
Aaron Shafer |
RHP |
Wichita State |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
3 |
97 |
Chris Carpenter |
RHP |
Kent State |
9 |
-0.1 |
MLB |
|
4 |
131 |
Matt Cerda |
SS |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
5 |
161 |
Justin Bristow |
RHP |
East Carolina |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
6 |
191 |
Josh Harrison |
2B |
Cincinnati |
195 |
0.9 |
MLB |
|
7 |
221 |
Luis Flores |
C |
Oklahoma State |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
8 |
251 |
James Leverton |
LHP |
Texas Tech |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
9 |
281 |
RHP |
Furman |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
10 |
311 |
RHP |
Texas A&M |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
Cincinnati |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
7 |
1B |
Miami |
117 |
0.5 |
MLB |
|
|
3 |
84 |
RHP |
Texas Tech |
67 |
0.5 |
MLB |
|
|
4 |
119 |
Tyler Cline |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
5 |
149 |
Clayton Shunick |
RHP |
North Carolina State |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
6 |
179 |
2B |
Delaware |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
7 |
209 |
RHP |
Howard JC |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
8 |
239 |
SS |
Cal State |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
9 |
269 |
OF |
Coastal Carolina |
118 |
0.3 |
MLB |
|
|
10 |
299 |
Sean Conner |
OF |
Palm Beach CC |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
Houston |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
10 |
C |
Stanford |
217 |
.2 |
MLB |
|
|
1s |
38 |
RHP |
HS |
94 |
.3 |
MLB |
|
|
2 |
56 |
OF |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
3 |
88 |
Chase Davidson |
1B |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A- |
|
3s |
109 |
Ross Seaton |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
4 |
122 |
OF |
Arizona |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
5 |
152 |
David Duncan |
LHP |
Georgia Tech |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
6 |
182 |
OF |
Ohio State |
81 |
0.3 |
MLB |
|
|
7 |
212 |
OF |
Arizona |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
8 |
242 |
Brad Dydalewicz |
LHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
9 |
272 |
LHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
10 |
302 |
Jarred Holloway |
LHP |
JC |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
Milwaukee |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
16 |
Brett Lawrie |
3B/C |
HS |
171 |
2.7 |
MLB |
|
1s |
32 |
Jake Odorizzi |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
1s |
35 |
Evan Frederickson |
LHP |
San Francisco |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
2 |
53 |
Seth Lintz |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
2 |
54 |
OF |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
2 |
62 |
Cody Adams |
RHP |
Southern Illinois |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
3 |
94 |
OF |
Cal Poly |
5 |
.1 |
MLB |
|
|
4 |
128 |
Josh Romanski |
LHP |
San Diego |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
5 |
158 |
Maverick Lasker |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
6 |
188 |
Jose Duran |
SS |
Texas A&M |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
7 |
218 |
Trey Watten |
RHP |
Abilene Christian |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
8 |
248 |
OF |
Cal State Fullerton |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
9 |
278 |
Michael Bowman |
RHP |
VMI |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
10 |
308 |
RHP |
Seton Hall |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
|
Pittsburgh |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
2 |
Pedro Alvarez |
3B |
Vanderbilt |
582 |
0.8 |
MLB |
|
2 |
48 |
RHP |
Fresno State |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
3 |
79 |
SS |
Oklahoma State |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
4 |
114 |
Chase d'Arnaud |
SS |
Pepperdine |
143 |
-0.2 |
MLB |
|
5 |
144 |
LHP |
Fresno State |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
6 |
174 |
OF |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
7 |
204 |
Benji Gonzalez |
SS |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
8 |
234 |
3B |
Virginia |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
9 |
264 |
3B |
Oklahoma State |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
10 |
294 |
Drew Gagnon |
RHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
OOBB |
|
St. Louis |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
13 |
1B |
Arizona State |
480 |
-0.3 |
MLB |
|
|
1s |
39 |
RHP |
Mississippi |
34 |
0.6 |
MLB |
|
|
2 |
59 |
OF |
Long Beach State |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
3 |
91 |
Niko Vasquez |
SS |
HS |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
4 |
125 |
RHP |
UC Irvine |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
|
5 |
155 |
Jermaine Curtis |
3B |
UCLA |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
6 |
185 |
RHP |
CC |
0 |
NA |
A+ |
|
|
7 |
215 |
LHP |
HS |
0 |
NA |
A |
|
|
8 |
245 |
Ryan Kulik |
LHP |
Rowan |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
9 |
275 |
OF |
Rice |
0 |
NA |
AAA |
|
|
10 |
305 |
2B |
Belmont Abbey |
0 |
NA |
AA |
|
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
41 comments
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Comments
Nice article, Roberto
I thought the Pedro bashing had gone too far and was trying to think of a way to illustrate that it’s too early to judge this draft class; I think that comparing Pittsburgh directly to its divisional rivals is perfect.
I think that comparing Pittsburgh directly to its divisional rivals is perfect.
Comparing Pittsburgh to divisional rivals doesn’t account for draft position. The Pirates were picking in the #2 slot, compared to #7 for the Reds, #10 for the Astros, #13 for the Cardinals, #16 for the Brewers, and #19 for the Cubs. The gap in expected value between the #2 pick and the #19 pick is simply huge. Similarly, the comparison above doesn’t account for draft expenditure, where a cheap-ass team like Houston that won’t go above slot will have a lower expected return than a team that’s a little freer with the purse strings.
And of course, looking only at ML performance tilts the balance well against any team that went high-school heavy in their draft, since those players wouldn’t be expected to have made the majors by 2011. The Brewers, for example, accumulate no credit for Jake Odorizzi, even though he’s a top SP prospect.
But the point, I think
is to provide some sort of baseline understanding of what could be done. IOW, here’s a range of outcomes for teams that we’re all familiar with.
Also, since it includes where the players were drafted out of, there’s implicit information about strategy (e.g., Cinci and Chicago both avoided HS players almost completely) to round out the picture a bit.
fair point about draft position
But several of the other high-drafting teams don’t look much better than the Pirates. The Rays, drafting #1, haven’t had a single player made the majors; and though 3 of their top 5 picks were from high school, I don’t think any of them are top prospects unless you count Tim Beckham. I think they’d trade their 2008 draft for ours in a heartbeat, if only to get Robbie Grossman.
The Royals, drafting #3, made bank, with good ML performance from Hosmer so far, a couple top pitching prospects or former top pitching propsects in Lamb, Montgomery (supplemental), and Sample, and Giovatella also in the majors (where his performance has been somewhat d’Arnaudian, but I think his minor-league stats show more promise, plus he’s younger).
The Royals, drafting #4, had Matusz make the majors (BBRef actually likes him a little) and Kyle Hudson (meh). LJ Hoes and Bobby Bundy are still decent prospects, I guess. Wouldn’t really trade our draft for theirs, but then they’re the Orioles.
The Giants, drafting #5, have had four players in the majors, though the non-Posey ones haven’t played much there or produced much — and they were all college guys. Eric Surkamp is still a prospect I guess, Crawford and Gillaspie could produce though I wouldn’t lay money that they’ll outproduce Mercer and d’Arnaud.
The Marlins, drafting #6, went high-school heavy and have had one player hit the majors (second-rounder Brad Hand). I kind of don’t recognize any of the rest of the names, including first-rounder Kyle Skipworth.
So that’s two drafts I count as almost total whiffs, and only one that really looks to get much production past the first round. But this emphasizes how important it is to hit on your #1 pick. Especially if you’re trying to build through the draft, you need your Pedros to succeed.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wait, Sample isn't a top prospect, I don't think
I was probably mixing him up with Tyler Skaggs. Some guys just sound like good prospects, don’t you know?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
and that's the Orioles drafting Matusz at #4
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
oh, i thought you meant he was a good prospect inspite of
Sample’s small size!
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
by BurgherKing on Feb 6, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The Rays, drafting #1, haven’t had a single player made the majors; and though 3 of their top 5 picks were from high school, I don’t think any of them are top prospects unless you count Tim Beckham. I think they’d trade their 2008 draft for ours in a heartbeat, if only to get Robbie Grossman.
I haven’t given up on Beckham, but yeah, that’s pretty grim.
The Orioles, drafting #4, had Matusz make the majors (BBRef actually likes him a little) and Kyle Hudson (meh). LJ Hoes and Bobby Bundy are still decent prospects, I guess. Wouldn’t really trade our draft for theirs, but then they’re the Orioles.
The big name you missed there is Oliver Drake, who would’ve gone a lot higher than the 43rd round if he hadn’t been coming from the Naval Academy (and thus possibly tied up in a mandatory service requirement). Greg Miclat’s a decent MIF prospect: .371 OBP and a 50/3 SB/CS last year, mostly as a 23-year-old in AA. He was the final cut from my R5 preview. Xavier Avery hasn’t hit much, but he was known to be raw at the time of the draft, and scouts still like his tools. Ronnie Welty has decent tools and a little more performance than Avery. And I have a soft spot for Jason Gurka, who misses a lot of bats for a guy who doesn’t have much stuff (and who made Bryce Harper look stupid in one game last year).
The Giants, drafting #5, have had four players in the majors, though the non-Posey ones haven’t played much there or produced much — and they were all college guys. Eric Surkamp is still a prospect I guess, Crawford and Gillaspie could produce though I wouldn’t lay money that they’ll outproduce Mercer and d’Arnaud.
The Giants’ 2008 draft class also includes two other notable college arms: Scott Barnes, who got traded to the Indians, and Ryan Verdugo, who got dealt to the Royals.
The Marlins, drafting #6, went high-school heavy and have had one player hit the majors (second-rounder Brad Hand). I kind of don’t recognize any of the rest of the names, including first-rounder Kyle Skipworth.
Skipworth’s a catcher. Good raw power, but problems with the strike zone prevent him from making much use of it. In addition to Hand, the Marlins had Elih Villanueva make the majors – he’s a low-ceiling back-of-the-rotation SP type. Other than that, at this point their 2008 draft class is mostly RPs: Pete Andrelczyk, Dan Jennings, and Wade Korpi. Isaac Galloway has enough tools that he might make it as an OF if he learns the strike zone, which he probably won’t.
But this emphasizes how important it is to hit on your #1 pick.
Yes, exactly.
thanks for the comments/corrections
I was kind of trying to do the first ten rounds to be apples-to-apples with the post, but I also think I just didn’t scroll down far enough to see Villanueva. Also, I generally looked at some Sickels roundups for the teams in question, which meant I missed trade guys like Barnes and Verdugo.
There’s still hope for Beckham, but wouldn’t you say there’s a decent chance he gets outproduced by Mercer and/or d’Arnaud?
There’s obviously a fair amount of hometown bias here (also because I’ve heard of the Pirates’ “other” guys like Cunningham and Hague, and tend to dismiss “other” prospects for other teams as, well, “others”), but I still don’t think I’d trade the Pirates’ draft for the Orioles. What do you think? My sense is that at the moment these drafts break down pretty clearly into three tiers — KC/SF, Pit/Bal, and then TB/Fla with pretty big whiffs. Seem right to you?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
There’s still hope for Beckham, but wouldn’t you say there’s a decent chance he gets outproduced by Mercer and/or d’Arnaud?
It’s not impossible, but if you gave me my choice of any one of the three, it’d definitely be him.
My sense is that at the moment these drafts break down pretty clearly into three tiers — KC/SF, Pit/Bal, and then TB/Fla with pretty big whiffs. Seem right to you?
Broadly, yeah, I think that’s about right. You could make a case for four tiers, with us in the second and Baltimore in the third.
He was in Korea last year.
Samsung Lions. Got released partway through the year, though.
Not sure whether he’s under contract anywhere for 2012 yet.
Perfect for ML stats as a comparison
Prospects, even now more than ever, are a massive asset for any team. But looking back on a draft as recent as 2008 can never be completely objective because all the principles haven’t played out their roles. In February 2012, the Brewers have a valuable piece in Odorizzi who may one day be their ace or be part of a package that brings them a superstar, but he hasn’t won a game in Milwaukee, yet. In that reasoning, they shouldn’t get credit for Lawrie’s 2.8 bWAR, but Marcum’s 3.3 bWAR because that’s what they turned Lawrie into.
As far as draft position and budget are concerned, they’re important for evaluating how teams are faring with the advantages/disadvantages they have (Zane Smith breaks down position better than I would have), but ultimately Pittsburgh’s competing against the rest of the NL Central. Tampa’s been amazing with what they’ve produced with their resources, but they still have to contend at the MLB level against New York, Boston, Toronto, and Baltimore.
nitpick
Odorizzi was part of the package for Greinke, so if you’re counting that way that’s how you count it. But that complicates things too much — part of the reason that the Pirates didn’t flip Pedro for Cliff Lee was that it would have been a completely insane thing to do given where the franchise was. But that shouldn’t affect our valuation of Justin Smoak — at least, the Pirates wouldn’t have got the value out of him that the Rangers did.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
Great work.
Thanks for the extra effort.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
maybe?
He was pretty dominant in the minors for Texas and there was a lot of “He’s going to be the next closer or starter for the Rangers LOLPIrates” and then he got hurt. The Lone Star Ball guys are hoping he can make it in the pen.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
WHAT?
Tanner Scheppers has injury problems?!?!?! Who could possibly have seen that coming?
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 6, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Still would've loved to get him
But he really hasn’t dominated the minors.
Justin Wilson > Scheppers
We won't mention that...
the Reds already used Alonso to get Mat Latos from the Padres…a pretty good pitcher.
Or that Cashner has already been used by the Cubs to get Rizzo from the Padres.
Or that the Brewers used Lawrie to get Marcum from the Blue Jays.
Or that Brett Wallace was used by the Cardinals to get Matt Holliday from the A’s.
Damned useful pieces, I’d say…and a lot more value than WAR gives them.
doesn't really seem relevant
If Huntington had drafted those guys, he wouldn’t have traded him for those players (nor should he have). We care about how good the players he could’ve drafted are, not who he could’ve traded them for.
Also, Alonso wasn’t even really the centerpiece of the Latos trade.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Correct me if I am wrong...
isn’t the idea for a team to get the best players possible, whether it be by draft or trade? If you can use a draftee to get you a better player for your team, isn’t that an intelligent use of resources?
think this over
Would it have been a good idea for the Pirates to have traded Pedro Alvarez and three minor leaguers for Cliff Lee in 2010? Why or why not?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
OK
Now, that takes out Holliday and probably Marcum as trade targets, because they’d be hard to keep; Latos cost two first-rounders, and Rizzo is as unproven as Pedro.
That’s why I think, when we’re evaluating NH’s draft decisions, we should consider the inherent value of the players rather than the value of the players we might’ve been able to trade them for, because right now, prospects and players early in their careers are more valuable to the Pirates than the Holidays, Lees, and even the Marcums of the world.
Also, the trade is a separate transaction than the draft. Suppose Yamaico Navarro turns out to be a good pickup — that doesn’t make Brooks Pounders a good draft pick, it means we were lucky to get Navarro for him.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 6, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's the same logic people use with Edwin Jackson
My effort to tie all current Bucs threads together!! It’s the answer to “Why has Edwin Jackson played on so many different teams?” His perceived value is there. I don’t think he’s the kind of guy to build a staff around and didn’t/don’t think it a good idea to sign him in Pittsburgh, but if he’d been acquired, part of the value of the contract would have to be considered whatever the Pirates would get for him in July.
Applying that to prospects: If Pittsburgh had somehow been able to acquire Montero last year, his value as a player was probably exceeded by his value as a trade piece. The Red Sox were always good at overhyping (and getting ridiculous value for) their prospects. While that may not be draft strategy, it’s certainly some measure of a GM’s ability.
Look at who made those trades
and when they were made. The Brewers were in “must win absolutely freaking now!” mode because Prince was about to leave. They traded 6 years of Brett Lawrie for two of Shaun Marcum. In all likelihood, they are going to “lose” that trade in a really big way. However, it made sense given the state of the organization. When the Cards traded Wallace to Oakland, they were 1 game up in a hotly contested playoff race. They had to make a move to bring in a bat that could help right now. They made the deal because it made sense at the time. Even so, you could make a decent case that they gave up a lot just to get them an extra 2.6 WAR in 2009. The Reds are ALSO in win now mode (are you starting to see a pattern?) and dealt a good but incredibly blocked 1B prospect for a front line starting pitcher.
The only exception would be the Cubs. Chicago is not in “win now” mode but they also didn’t trade their prospect for an established big leaguer. The Cubs traded their prospect for a younger prospect. Trading Cashner for Rizzo was actually building for the future. It’s not entirely impossible for Cashner to produce more at the ML level this season than Rizzo does. Put another way, would you really be that excited if the Pirates had traded Pedro for Rizzo? Would you feel supremely confident that that trade would have made the Pirates better in 2012 and beyond?
How would it make sense for a team like the Pirates to trade their prospects for short-term ML players? Giving the trading teams credit for making deals for established big leaguers at this point unfairly rewards them (in an analysis like this one) for being closer to contending. Contending teams trade prospects and also-rans trade for prospects. That’s just how it has to work…
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ahh yes you know the season is almost here
when the proverbail “we should have traded pedro when his value was high” comments start flying
" Lord Stanley, scratch their names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Feb 14, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
I'd also suggest that Tim needs to do a little better research.
The second half of the quote saying it’s too early to expect teams to have a 2008 draftee in the majors.
There are only 4 teams that have NOT had a player from the 2008 draft in the majors yet. They are all in the American League. The Rays, Yankees, Twins and Mariners. And the Mariners have had 3 from the 2009 draft in the majors.
I may be misremembering things here, but wasn’t the statement that you can’t expect the high schoolers drafted in 2008 to be in the majors by now?
If that's the case...
someone misquoted Tim at the top of this entry.
Considering that the quote
referenced players’ WAR, I think it’s fair to infer that the quote was meant to suggest that it’s too early to expect a contributing ML player already from the 2008 draft. By setting the WAR standard to 2.0, it eliminates players who have only had a cup of coffee in the bigs or guys who have, to this point, been unproductive. In fact, in the article linked, Tim essentially says as much in the same paragraph a the quote above. Immediately before that he writes:
The assumption is that the Pirates should have at least one player from the 2008 draft performing at the major league level by now, if not more. But that assumption isn’t correct.
This shows that instead of merely having a guy put on a big league uniform at some point he is talking about guys who have actually performed for the ML club. As amended, the quote would read something like this:
As of the end of the 2011 season, only eight players from the entire 2008 draft class have produced a career 2.0 WAR or better, according to Baseball-Reference. That just shows that it’s too early to be expecting any team to have a player performing in the majors at this point, especially guys after the first round
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Roberto
Would you mind if I used the info in this post for an article I’ll write in the next week? I’ll of course credit you and link to this post. Let me know. Thank.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 7, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

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