Pirates Rank Fourth In ESPN NL Central Position Rankings
This is a fun exercise. I was scanning through the rankings, thinking, "Wow, the NL Central really is not very good," until I got to the rankings for each spot in the rotation, at which point the Pirates started getting clobbered.
4 months ago
Charlie Wilmoth
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Compared to the rest of the division, this is a sad rotation. IMO, by mid-season NH’s failure to upgrade it is going to be a major issue. This isn’t the steroid era any more. Having five guys who can stagger through five innings without getting blown out isn’t enough even if you have a major league offense, which the Pirates don’t. There are lots of pitchers now who are able to dominate on a regular basis, but NH evidently is content to sit back and wait for Cole and Taillon to arrive.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
A tad unfair considering they went after Jackson with a more than fair offer.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
But it shows they're not content to roll out as-is.
Hopefully Cole/Taillon can change the FA perception…
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
They’re content to limit themselves to their “internal value,” which will never lure anybody any good to Pgh. The goal should be to upgrade, not to be “fair.”
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
WTM
even if it was going to double their “internal value” they wouldn’t have been able to sign EJ. As long as Bora$$ is living there will ALWAYS be a big-market owner that will outbid the Pirates no matter what.
It’s a no-win situation for the Pirates. As long as Bud is commisher it will always remain that way.
Groundless speculation
They were outbid, plain and simple, by $1M. Jackson’s goal obviously is to get a huge, multiyear contract, and he decided to go for a one-year deal in the interim. There’s no reason to think he wouldn’t have gone with the Pirates if they’d outbid the Nats.
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True
But there also isn’t necessarily reason to think they were given the opportunity to outbid the Nats as well. Whose to say that Boras came to the Bucs and said, “I’ve got $11 million on the table, can you beat it?”. I wouldn’t be shocked if he didn’t, thinking the best interesting of his client was to not play here.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
There are always a million excuses when the Pirates fail to get a player. The bottom line is that, when it’s a guy who’d be a real upgrade, they always fail.
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Like Oswalt
It’s completely NH’s fault that Oswalt has zero desire to play for them.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
That kinda sucks
Still, I’d fax over a contract for 1 year and $10M. If it’s true that the Sox, Cards, Reds and Rangers are all either unable or unwilling to offer him any more than $5M and/or a job out of the ’pen, he might reconsider…
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Who mentioned Oswalt?
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by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
there should be a limit to the use of the following words on this blog:
1- hyperbole
2- strawman
3- pressley
Don’t want to hear the word strawman? Don’t make strawman arguments.
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by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
The bottom line is that, when it’s a guy who’d be a real upgrade, they always fail
Say what? That was a very general question, and I answered it justly imo.
If players refuse to even listen to their offers, then how is that the FO’s fault?
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
There’s no indication Jackson refused to listen. They just got outbid.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
The trend seems that if we target a player, and we don’t land them, it’s because they don’t want to play in Pit, not because we’re not willing to pay them.
AND I still don’t think we’re in the position to overpay players, especially in years… MAYBE 2013
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
the only thing we know is that NH got outbid on a one year deal
we have no idea if NH was outbid on a 3 year deal however.
and for what we know about the Jorge De La Rosa deal, there was no real proof that NH got outbid on that one either.
We know he didn’t get the player. That’s the one constant.
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by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention Buehrle and Heath Bell
Strange analogy.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Gettin' kinda desperate to come up with an argument, eh?
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and you know I meant the Marlins really wanted Pujols
so who is trying to start an argument around here???
So you admit you're just doing this to stir things up?
That’s…kind of dickish.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
by Raybin on Feb 7, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
how is starting a conversation dickish?
you know whats dickish? saying what someone else is doing is dickish…
rubber/glue, me/you
What about Pirates Nation on Twitter
begging and pleading EJ to sign with Pirates before he forced himself to sign with the Nats? He could’ve been had for 3 years and 30 million but now he risk getting lit up at his home park and other parks such as Citizens and Turner for this so-called epic payday for next year in a crowded FA pitching market. It’s not gonna happen.
It was a bad move on EJ’s part but the bottom line is Bora$$ does not want ANY of his FAs thinking about going to Pittsburgh.
Well, Boras is kind of BFFs with the new Nats GM, isn’t he? Did that start with the Werth contract?
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Stras and Harper weren’t overpaid.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that’s why it was so obvious all along that Prince would sing with the Nats.
Oh . . . . wait . . . .
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by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
silly, Prince is gonna sing with the Revolution
and the New Power Generation, and probably some other bands.
On substance, I’m not saying that every Boras client will sign with the Nats, just that it’s possible that they used to not want to sign with the Nats and are more likely to sign with them now that Boras has a close relationship with their GM. But I don’t know how that relationship started, or even if it’s just a question of the GM being more willing to throw money at Boras clients (that’s why I brought up Werth). Hell, I don’t even know if the Nats did sign Boras clients before Rizzo was GM! It just seems relevant, when you’re talking about the Nats’ changing relationship with Boras clients, to discuss the new GM’s relationship with Boras.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
This sort of thing gets way over-stated. The Pirates supposedly weren’t going to be able to deal with Boras after the Alvarez fiasco, yet now they have Cole and Bell. And seemingly everybody was stunned that they were able to sign Bell.
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by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
agreed there
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Fact-free speculation.
MLBTR reported last week that Jackson wasn’t going to sign a multiyear deal bc he didn’t like the offers he was getting. He must have had some interest in the Pirates or it wouldn’t have gotten to the stage of them making offers. He’d have told them to buzz off like Oswalt did. They just got outbid. I guess a bunch of tweets from fans < $1M.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
If players refuse to even listen to their offers, then how is that the FO’s fault?
The front office should have an idea of which players are willing to listen to their offers and which are not. Persistently targeting players who aren’t willing to sign here means that they don’t understand their place in the market, and will miss opportunities while waiting for unrealistic potential acquisitions to reject them.
I’m sorry, but what opportunities?
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
The opportunity to focus on more realistic targets, who sign with other teams while we’re still focused on unrealistic ones.
I'm not convinced this is really what's happened
This year or previous ones. It’s not as if NH was posting offers to Pujols and Fielder, only to discover Kotchman gone. ISTM that, for the most part, NH mostly hasn’t targeted a player and done what it would take (within reason) to get him. Barajas and Barmes broke that trend, but they may be the only exceptions in 4 years. What happens, near as I can tell, is that NH targets middling players (probably appropriately), offers middling money, and then gets rejected and moves down the list until he finds someone willing to settle.
Probably comes back to “internal value”, much as I hate to say it. But if Edwin Jackson was a good fit for the team – if he was worth 1/10 or 3/30 – then you need to actually make it happen. You don’t pay more than the market will bear (e.g. 5/60), but if you want a guy, get him. Obviously there are players who only make sense at a certain price (Church was fine at $1M, he wouldn’t have made any sense at $3M), but the idea that EJ at 1/10 is good, but that no EJ at all is better than EJ at 1/11.5, doesn’t really hold up.
Again, not saying you overpay every guy. Just saying that coming in #2 on every FA adds up to a big, fat zero.
It’s not as if NH was posting offers to Pujols and Fielder, only to discover Kotchman gone.
And yet, here we are, with reported offers to Jackson and Oswalt that were obviously futile on the face of things, since guys of that type aren’t willing to sign with us, and a projected 2012 rotation that still includes Kevin Correia.
With the possible exception of Garland, who’s coming back from a serious injury, there are no more better-than-Correia SP options left on the market. We aren’t going to get something that the team desperately needs.
I think you missed my point
Obviously we have ended up without upgrades at 1B and SP. As you know, I’m very unhappy about that. My contention, however, is that this has more to do with NH setting unrealistic value/talent goals for those slots than it does with him dicking around at an unrealistically high end of the market (incidentally, I didn’t think they’d actually offered Oswalt anything, just made an inquiry).
Point being, my theory is that NH decided “We’re only signing a 1B or SP if it’s a real upgrade, and we’re not ‘overpaying’ those players.” Which resulted in nada. Your theory, as I understand it, is that NH was too busy trying to sign unrealistic targets to pay attention to the lower/more realistic end of the market.
Among other things, I think the Overbay experience shows that ignoring the lower end of the market isn’t the worst idea.
the argument is about the middle end of the market, isn't it?
The Maholms and Francises. (Frances?)
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think so
NH seems to think (or to have thought through last winter) that the bottom of the FA market is where the inefficiencies are – that if you sign enough Crosbys and Correias and Overbays, you’ll end up getting net surplus value (basically, the amateur draft model).
I would argue that the sweet spot is actually in the middle. Big name FAs are getting ridiculous deals: Reyes, Pujols, and Fielder all seem no better than even odds to reach their contract values (Reyes probably most likely, as his contract was depressed by his injury history). Low end guys, as we’ve seen, don’t actually pay off often enough: it’s rare, in the post-Moneyball era, for truly valuable players to be significantly undervalued, plus you can’t exactly sign 15 $1M players and reap the benefits from whichever ones provide surplus value.
So what you need to do is to identify the best available mid-market guysª and then sign them. You’re not going to be getting transformative talent there, but if you can get reliable, healthy, league-average players at reasonable cost, now you’re actually plugging holes so that they stay plugged. Sign a Pujols, and your hole may in fact open right back up, because he’s aging. Sign an Overbay, and your hole doesn’t get filled at all. But sign the right, mid-market guy, and you have reasonable assurance that you’ll be crippled neither by collapse nor by pouring 20% of payroll into one guy.
Arguably, this is the story of the Barmes and (to a lesser extent) Barajas signings. I don’t know if that’s actually NH’s operating theory, although the absence of bad signings is promising.
ª it’s possible Edwin Jackson qualifies here, because he was being priced as a mid-market guy even though his talent was/is closer to the upper guys
To be clear
The ceiling for these mid-market signings is low. Maybe you get 3 WAR while you pay for 2, but you’re unlikely to get 3.5 wins while paying for 1. But we already knew that we needed to have a lot of talent on hand before spending on FAs. What we can’t afford to do is to have our best young players putting up a dozen wins among 3 guys only to have 3 other guys put up zero.
League average guys at every roster spot, by definition, gets you to .500. Turn 4 of those guys into upper tier (3.5-8 WAR) players, and now you’re at 90 wins, and you’re in contention – as long as you avoid those zeros. Part of that is ensuring that, behind your front line, league-average talent, you’ve got credible backups, whether on the bench or in AAA.
All of which is to say, get the org in shape, with excellent frontline talent and a solid group of backups, and then fill the holes, not with high risk FA signings, but with solid performers.
not so sure about the ceiling
The Giants got 6.0 fWAR from Aubrey Huff on a $3 million contract in 2010. They went on to pay him $10 million for below-replacement performance the next year, but oh well. (And he was waaay below replacement in 2009, which may complicate the assessment of the market.)
Anyway, nice analysis.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not convinced that we could've got EJ without paying 5/60
or 4/48, or something. If he’s rejecting 3/30, I’m not sure another year at the same money would have helped.
All this is probably an argument for having given Maholm a better deal than he got from the Cubs. The gap between his option and what he got is so big that there should’ve been something we could’ve done to get him back, hurt feelings or no.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
The gap between his option and what he got is so big that there should’ve been something we could’ve done to get him back
I’m not sure his arm didn’t play into it. That might well significantly reduce the gap.
Well, it wouldn’t reduce the gap between the price of his option and the contract they got — they are known quantities — but I take your point.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
WTM loves using the strawman picture
That is definitely his background.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
He seems to be a regular poster here.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Cheap Beer...
Oswalt has zero interest in playing with about half the teams in the majors. He’s more interested in rings than rebuilding.
So tired of the "Blame Boras" meme.
There ARE other agents out there. We didn’t get any of their clients either.
Stupidity should be painful.
@elwreckingball
by wrecking_ball on Feb 7, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well said.
.
.
.
… (I do have one minor issue with your signature: Stupidity already is painful – sadly, it’s only painful for the rest of us. Heh.)
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 9, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
They made a competitve offer
they didn’t make a “more than fair offer.” If you want to bring the best remaining FA to a team that has not started winning, you need to try harder. The Pirates were apparently one of 3 or 4 teams to offer a 3 year deal. IMO, they should have been the ONLY team to offer a 4 year deal.
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this
why not add a player option on top of 3 years?
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 7, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Cole, Taillon, and even McPherson
can’t come to Pittsburgh soon enough.
I think this article, especially the section on starting pitchers, should be required reading for those that think we have a shot at .500 this year.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
USA Today, in their baseball annual, predicts 77 wins
… and that the whole organization is on the way up.
bought it. read it on the crapper.
Why?
The one thing that bugs me about the assumption that the Pirates will be gawd-awful this year is that they rarely address any possibility that the players already on the roster could improve. I will admit the team got lucky with pitching health through the first 4 months of last season. I will admit they didn’t to anything to upgrade the rotation or its depth (although if Bedard does stay healty, he is better than Paulie…the push is because Maholm’s superior health cancels out Bedard’s superior ability).
HOWEVER, to say that the team won’t even crack 70 wins assumes that Pedro, Tabata, J-Mac, Morton, Lincoln, McGehee, Cutch and Walker won’t improve at all. It also assumes that Jones won’t benefit from a better platoon partner than Matt Diaz, Barajas won’t stay healthy (or at least healthier than Ryan Doumit)…actually, I’m going to pause to address this one…
The Pirates went through 9 catchers last year. NINE! They gave major league playing time to Doumit, Snyder, Fort, JJ, Dusty Brown, Wyatt Torregas, Matt Pagnozzi, Eric Fryer and Kris Watts (I actually don’t remember, did Watts get a Sept. callup?). Even if Barajas isn’t healthy all year, it’s difficutl to believe that the catching situation will get as dire as it did in 2011.
Not cracking 70 wins also assumes that the team won’t benefit from full seasons of Alex Presley and that Clint Barmes won’t be an upgrade over Ronny Cedeno.
Ultimately, what I’m saying is that if you really believe that the 2012 season will be 100-loss type bad, please explain why, not only will the pitching fail, but each and every one of these other things will also go wrong…
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Watts was ever in Pittsburgh
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right
I don’t know why I felt like I saw him last year…either way, 8 catchers still too many haha.
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
“I will admit the team got lucky with pitching health through the first 4 months of last season.”
setup man and #2 starter out all year isn’t lucky. If anything, we were average or slightly unlucky
Agreed
But some on this site think we have a real shot at .500. We don’t.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
With the current roster?
No, at least not without a lot of luck/things coming together (Morton doesn’t miss a beat, McDonald goes 6+ in every start, Bedard throws 150 innings, Pedro is good for 3+ WAR, etc. etc.). But they are within a Maholm and a DLee of being in the neighborhood of .500 (say, 79-82 wins). As it stands right now, they should get more production from LF, RF, 3B, and SS. Both C and 1B could well be improved. CF, 2B, and the bullpen all figure to roughly hold steady. That leads to the rotation, which is the big question mark, and the thing that so many of us would have liked to see improved.
I don't know, this article has Bedard worse than Randy Wolf, Kyle Lohse, Mike Leake, Travis Wood, and McDonald
Does anyone here really believe that his injury prone nature makes him worse then all of these guys?
i definately dont
but the article was looking great until the starting pitching came around, just like Charlie said.
some of the article was spot on, like Pedro trying to hit wiggly stuff.
but calling Karstens our #1 and saying that Tabata HAS TO hit for power is pushing it.
Tabata isn’t going to be much of an asset if he doesn’t learn to hit for at least moderate power. And right now, we don’t have a #1 starter (now that Maholm’s gone), so Karstens is no better or worse in that slot than any other non-Correia starter would be.
Tabata is also a leadoff hitter.
If he can just get on base, turn singles into double/doubles into triples, he’ll be an amazing asset to this team.
he does not have to hit 20 dingers just because hes a corner outfielder.
would be nice though.
Tabata is also a leadoff hitter.
There’s no such position as “leadoff hitter”.
Given Tabata’s current level of production, he needs to provide significantly more offensive value if he’s going to be an above-average left fielder. It doesn’t have to come from power, but if it doesn’t, he’s going to need a whole shitload of other stuff.
but he does have a shitload of other stuff
and there is such a thing as a leadoff hitter, or a table setter. why does nearly every team try to put a good OBP with spead at the top of the lineup? Tabata can be this guy.
but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, he has to have a 900 OPS and part of the 30/30 club or hes a piece of shit.
no
an 800 OPS will do nicely… esp if he can steal 30… given those 2, i dont terribly care if he gets the other 30. (I mean, tht’d be great, but I dont expect it at all)
but he does have a shitload of other stuff
No, he doesn’t. He had 40 walks in 382 PA, which is decent but unexceptional, and a 16/7 SB/CS, which is right around break-even, and a .266 BA, which is pretty marginal for a starter, and 4 HBP.
but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, he has to have a 900 OPS and part of the 30/30 club or hes a piece of shit.
Nobody here called him a piece of shit. I said that he needs to provide significantly more offensive value if he’s going to be an above-average left fielder in the future. Which he does. Last year as a whole, all NL LFs combined for a .748 OPS. That’s not all starters. That’s all LFs, with backups included.
Well, yeah. Most teams need their #1 to pitch more than 70 innings a year, and he can’t be counted on for any more than that.
how many did he pitch last year? 130? and his arm was fine too.
just because maholm can give you 200 innings doesnt mean you have 200 quality innings.
how many did he pitch last year? 130? and his arm was fine too.
And how many did he pitch the year before that? Or the year before that? Or the year before that?
just because maholm can give you 200 innings doesnt mean you have 200 quality innings.
Maholm has never had a non-quality season.
Well
his ’06, ’07 and ’10 seasons were arguably pretty mediocre. In ’06 he had a 94 ERA + and a 1.608 WHIP. In ’07 he was a replacement level player with an 87 ERA+. In 2010, he had a 0.4 WAR, a 1.565 WHIP and a 79 OPS+. Fangraphs liked those seasons better but I think you could at least make a case that they were “non-quality.”
by KentuckyPirate on Feb 7, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well his ’06, ’07 and ’10 seasons were arguably pretty mediocre.
Only if you don’t look at defense-independent numbers.
cmon, vlad!!!
$4.75MM… thats the number that matters! Thats what Maholm was worth on the open market, and his defense was only part of it.
As much as i would like to have him back for at least one season, im not surprised at why he got paid so little.
He has been one of the most hittable pitchers in baseball over the last decade. If it wasnt for Duke, you’d notice it even more.
yes, a good defense also helps, but even average pitchers can succeed with poor defenses.
when maholm is good, hes actually average. when he’s “average Paul”, hes in reality below average.
Gee...2011 stats
hits per 9 innings
Maholm 8.9
Karstens 9.0
McDonald 9.3
Morton 9.8
Correia 10.3
Only starter with a better WHIP…Karstens. Only starter with a lower HR/9…Morton. Maholm pitched 33 more innings than Bedard and had an ERA within 0.04 runs of him…in a league that doesn’t have the DH.
Don’t let stats get in your way, Angus.
by Thunder on Feb 8, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i have said on numerous occasions that Maholm pitched better than he ever has in 2011
and 2011 was “good” Paul. I would be fearful that “average” Paul comes back
Yeah, but
HOW MANY WINS DID PAULIE HAVE?
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 9, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Thats what Maholm was worth on the open market, and his defense was only part of it.
That’s what someone was willing to pay him, which is a separate consideration from what kind of value he was (and will be) providing.
He has been one of the most hittable pitchers in baseball over the last decade.
Yes, it’s interesting how many of the most hittable pitchers in baseball happen to have played in front of our terrible defenses at about the same time, isn’t it?
yes, a good defense also helps, but even average pitchers can succeed with poor defenses.
And that’s what Maholm was doing while he was here: Succeeding in spite of our poor defense.
unfair to Bedard
I guess they’re pre-emptively assuming his arm will blow up after 100 innings or so? (Not an unreasonable assumption, admittedly) When healthy, he’s the #1-with-a-bullet starter on this staff.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
Given some of his other explanations, I’d say Bedard’s injury history is the primary reason he is ranked so lowly as a #4.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Feb 7, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
yes, because in no way Leake or Wood are better than Mr. Bedard
Also I think McDonald isnt getting much love and I hope he proves everyone wrong.
pretty funny that Maholm is at #5 right above him though.
What’s frustrating is that there are still free agents available that would significantly upgrade this team and the division is just sitting there for the taking. Yes, they would have to overpay to get Oswalt or Lee or one (or even two) of the other pitchers out there, but there is room in the budget, there’s no one being blocked, and we’ve already seen what a hint of contention does for attendance and merch sales.
Yes, they would have to overpay to get Oswalt or Lee…
The unfortunate likelihood is that neither of those guys are willing to sign with us at any price.
Oswald is reminding me of Brett Favre.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, probably not...
But, still, you look at this division and it is soooo winable. Like I said, it’s frustrating.
But, still, you look at this division and it is soooo winable.
Not really for us, though. We’d need to add 10+ wins’ worth of talent to be a viable contender.
this
If I thought Edwin Jackson was the only thing standing between us and say a 30% shot at the division, I’d be steamed that they didn’t try to get him at 1/$12m or so. I don’t, so I’m not.
Still kind of wish we’d got him for 4/40, though. (Though I also think it’s not obvious that he’d have preferred 4/40 to 1/11.)
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 7, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
the Reds are going all-in this year
until Joey Votto becomes a FA
similar to what the Brewers did last offseason with the result bein a game away from reaching the World Series.
I think rating Bedard that far down is very harsh. He’s going to be healthy this year and pitch very well. He will then sign a big deal in the off-season and pitch very little for the rest of his career.
If he's
healthy, then I’m down. Big if though. I hope he just stays healthy and pitches lights out until the trade deadline and we swap him for something.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I do think the top six in the lineup could be good, but that depends almost completely on Alvarez. If he returns to some form of progress, the offense could be acceptable.
The rotation is going to be horrible. I don’t foresee another smoke-and-mirrors run from Correia and Karstens, and the guns are still too far away to make an impact this year, save maybe McPherson. I hope NH gives Oswalt a call.
No jinx no jinx no jinx.
by Suffering Buc on Feb 7, 2012 10:32 AM EST via mobile reply actions
It had better decline...
because it was a fluke that so many of the HR’s he gave up were solo shots.
I think Jackson was the last semi-realistic option to upgrade the staff
Oswalt isn’t coming to Pittsburgh barring a silly overpay (talking in the range of $15MM for 1 year). There aren’t many, if any, other FA starters worth anything.
Gavin Floyd has apparently been pulled off the trade market. The Cubs would want a king’s ransom and then some for Matt Garza.
This is the rotation. It really is. Sweet Jesus have mercy.
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
I've seen speculation
Mostly on the Boston counterpart of us, that Garza should (or maybe in a dream scenario) go to Boston as compensation for Theo. I don’t necessarily agree, but the logic isn’t awful either. Check it out if you get a chance.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Perspectives become reality.
Twitter: @shanecglass
other than maholm, the rotation is basically the same as last year
and last year, it was our strength.
Last year’s starter ERA — 11th in the NL. If that’s our strength, we’re in deep shit.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and for the most part of the year, our pitching was top 5 in the league
we actually lost games because we couldnt score any godamn runs!
Yes, and as we all know, you’re allowed do-overs for two months out of every year.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 7, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
both you guys are depressing
why even care about a team when you really only want to cut your wrists
Seems like it’s the team’s responsibility to answer that question.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 8, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
I refuse to let statistics and rankings
end the season before it even begins. We’re gonna win it all!
There's a difference between optimism and drug induced hallucinations, my man!
;-)
Jose Tabata is the truth
The following is a list of everything Darren McFadden is bad at: 1) Giving birth. End of list.
To bad for the Cubs
finishing behind “other” in the pre-season rankings. teehee.
On a serious note…my Clippers are doing pretty well this year so that’ll make this stretch of semi-sports at least a bit more tolerable. Bottom line: I can’t wait for April.
by bosten7 on Feb 7, 2012 12:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Other players
I personally think that players like Lincoln, Wilson and Owens are going to play a more prominent role this year, even if the peripherals/last year’s performance weren’t the best. We made it through the first half of last year without any injuries to the rotation (aside from Ohlendorf). Probably won’t happen this first half. Plus, I’m actually looking forward to seeing those guys develop at the major league level.
Grab Harden
and go with a platoon role… Harden/Bedard go every 10 days, in a sort of 6 man rotation.
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
I hope he called firsties
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
That's
not really that bad. The rotation sucks and that’s our strength (along with the OF) in the minor leagues. It could be worse.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 PM EST reply actions
funny how that is
were generally middle of the pack everywhere else and with “some” luck we can have top end position players like Cutch, Pedro, maybe Sanchez or a Dickerson. Walker rates top 3 at his position and who knows where Marte could fall.
Thats what she said! - Michael Gary Scott
This is SO DUMB
i wish i had this printed out on a piece of paper because i would wipe my ass with it a la Airheads.
Charlie Morton is our #2 starter but is worse than Ryan Dempster and Wandy Rodriguez? Ok
Apparently ESPN would take Randy Wolf Mike Leake Travis Wood and Kyle Lohse before Erik Bedard. OK
oh and then let’s just add up all these points and rank them because that’ll tell us the talent in the division
McDonald is the worst #3 starter in the divison. He’s not
I'd say that having Rodriguez and Dempster ahead of Morton isn't exactly a HUGE mistake...
Same with McDonald below Maholm, Norris, Bailey, Marcum, and Wainwright. I can see a reasonable person putting McDonald below all of those guys.
The Bedard and adding it all up complaints I’d say are valid in my opinion.
Charlie Morton is our #2 starter but is worse than Ryan Dempster and Wandy Rodriguez? Ok
Both of those pitchers are better than Morton, IMO.
Apparently ESPN would take Randy Wolf Mike Leake Travis Wood and Kyle Lohse before Erik Bedard. OK
They’re debiting Bedard for health, since he probably won’t last the whole year in the rotation without getting hurt.
But Bedard is still likely to match or exceed the 1-1.5 WAR the others will provide if they have normal or good seasons. For our team, I’d take125 good IP over 170 mediocre ones.
But Bedard is still likely to match or exceed the 1-1.5 WAR the others will provide if they have normal or good seasons.
Wood was worth 2.2 WAR in only 17 starts in 2010, Lohse was good for 2.5 last year, and even Wolf was worth 3.0 as recently as 2009. The only one who doesn’t have a recent performance significantly above that level is Leake, and he’s a 24-year-old first-rounder with significant upside remaining.
Is there a site that projects WAR?
I was just guesstimating by looking at their last 3 years, not really an opinion.
Lohse – 3 year WAR avg = 1.33
Leake – 2 year career avg = 1.25
Wolf – 3 year avg (>60% came in 2009) = 1.7
Wood – 2 year career avg = 1.65
Bedard = 2.4 in 2011, didn’t pitch 2010, 1.9 in 2009 (in 83 IP)
That looks to me like Wood is the only reasonable choice over Bedard based on stats, age, and scouting
*All fWAR
I'd rank each of our pitchers a slot higher
but I’m not sure who/what to expect of any of those #5’s. Hammer should be 1 or 2 with Madson, bullpen ranking looked fine.
god that is depressing when you get down to the pitching
how how long until cole, taillon, heredia, and allie are ready?
3-5 years for all but Cole. We’re not allowed to expect anyone up with less than 4 years in the system. Or so I’ve been told.
HS guys
yep. Find the last time a HS guy was up by his 22nd birthday that wasn’t given a bonus of at least 1.4 million in bonus money. (1.4 because that’s everyone we’ve picked except Taillon, Allie, and Bell).
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 8, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
And
I wouldn’t be remotely shocked to see Taillon pitching in Pittsburgh in September of 2013.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 8, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
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