Pirates Rumors: Yankees Want Garrett Jones In A.J. Burnett Trade, But Bucs Say No
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 9, 2012 6:59 PM EST
Email
PrintBuster Olney writes that the Yankees want Garrett Jones in a potential deal for A.J. Burnett, but that the Pirates don't want to deal Jones.
Garrett Jones is, in fact, the guy NYY want in any Burnett deal with the Pirates,but PIT not interested in moving Jones. No traction so far.
Good. Not that Jones is any great shakes, obviously, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to give up much of anything in exchange for A.J. Burnett's contract. And by making that deal, the Pirates be simply filling one hole by increasing the size of another. Yes, it's true that the Pirates have some other first-base options -- Casey McGehee, Nick Evans, Jake Fox, Matt Hague -- but you're not really sure you're getting something good with any of them. Yes, one (or more) of them could end up out-performing Jones, but Jones is still the safest bet, at least against righties. Risk avoidance shouldn't be the Pirates' primary goal, of course, but it is worth considering, to a degree, and if Evans or Fox suddenly start hitting somewhere, the Pirates will find places for them. I don't object to the Pirates trading Jones, but I'd prefer the Pirates not give up anything of value at all in exchange for Burnett when they can just agree to take on more salary instead.
With that said, I would like to see this get done somehow. Burnett isn't nearly as bad as many Yankees fans think he is. His strikeout rate suggests he still has something left in the tank. His peripherals suggest he has been unlucky recently, and he'd also be moving to a much better division. He has also been very durable in the past several years, and the Bucs' rotation can really use someone who can make 30-plus starts, because Erik Bedard and Charlie Morton aren't great bets to be healthy. In New York, Burnett is a minor annoyance, but in Pittsburgh, he'd be a source of stability.
UPDATE: I've seen Matt Morris' name bandied about recently in comparison to Burnett. Burnett isn't young, and it's certainly possible that his career could fall apart soon. But I don't think they're terribly similar situations. Morris' velocity had dipped down to the 87 MPH range by the time the Pirates acquired him, and that's problematic for a righty. His strikeout rate was also in the midst of dipping for the sixth straight season -- at the time of the trade, it was 4.83 batters per nine innings. Burnett certainly is past his prime as well, but he still struck out eight batters per nine last year, and his average fastball velocity was still around 93 MPH. Also, if the Pirates swing this right, they should be paying less per year for Burnett than they did for Morris. Burnett is a decline risk, as all older players are, but I don't think the writing is on the wall the way it was in Morris' case.
UPDATE 10:10 AM: Jon Heyman has more on this.
Word is, the Yankees at least initially asked the Pirates to pay well more than one-third of the $33 million, something closer to a 50-50 split of the financial obligation to Burnett ...
No other teams have surfaced publicly as potential suitors for Burnett as of yet.
Heyman also sent out a tweet that said the Yankees had offered to pay less than one-third of Burnett's remaining deal, but I think that was probably a typo.
353 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
My thoughts exactly.
He outperformed the peripherals, and switching from AL East to NL Central and Yankee Stadium to PNC will help considerably. But it seems the 1B options out there are pretty much nonexistent at this point, so trading Jones doesn’t seem to make much sense.
I think any return comes down to how much salary the Pirates are willing to take on, and given the offer to Jackson, and ostensibly to Lee, you’d think they could take on a significant chunk of Burnett’s contract, and not have to give up any players of value.
I was strong against moving Jones for Burnett
And I think I still am. Here’s where I’m torn:
as Charlie says, and as I agree, we have a handful of guys who could be better than Jones, but none that project that way with any likelihood. And I’m not sure there’s anyone left on the market who fills Jones’ shoes very well.
It does intrigue me that the Yanks want Jones. If that fact allows us to drive the deal, and then turn around and spend a little cash on someone else, I’m open to it. But if it’s between paying Burnett $8M over 2 years and giving up bupkis or paying Burnett $6M over 2 years, giving up Jones, and standing pat, then what have we done except save a tiny amount of money that doesn’t help the team or fans much, if at all? And before you say, “Use it to extend Cutch!”, remember: if $1M in 2012 and $1M in 2013 is the difference between extending and not extending Andrew McCutchen, they need to sale the team and reuse PNC Park as a roller derby facility.
by ATribeCalledGreg on Feb 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good
luck with that thing. I’ve been voting.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 9, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take him over KC
The scary thing about him is his 17% HR/FB rate, but considering it shot up 5.4% from 2010, I think it’s safe to say there’s a good chance it’ll fall back down some. He does walk a little much for my taste, but I think switching to the NL will allow him to be more aggressive.
by ATribeCalledGreg on Feb 9, 2012 7:11 PM EST reply actions
Totally agree
While jones isn’t great he still is a power hitter on a team starved for power. The dude has some awesome raw power granted he doesn’t always harness it.
Im in the minority but I would take on maybe 8 million a year for a total of 16 million, if it meant giving up nothing in return, and getting it done. We have a ton of money to spend its not going to hurt us really in anyway, specially with draft spending capped. Get it done Neal.
Does anyone see him falling off the cliff and becoming Matt Morris? J/w
age of last winning season: 5
by Bobby Hill on Feb 9, 2012 7:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
A reminder
One of the strongest arguments against the Overbay signing was that the ZiPS projections for him, Jones, Clement, and… whoever else we had who could play 1B, were all between OPS+ of 101 and 104. Jones did fine, and the other 3 guys dropped off the planet.
My point isn’t that we can 100% rely on Jones – he’s certainly a collapse candidate. It’s that having a handful of guys who could all be basically decent isn’t actually a guarantee of anything. Give me one guarantee, or give me as many maybes as possible.
I’m totally open to realistic suggestions wherein we trade away Jones and replace him with someone else.
I’m totally open to realistic suggestions wherein we trade away Jones and replace him with someone else.
Yeah, me too.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 9, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
This isn’t about overvaluing Jones. It’s about not overvaluing Burnett. I like AJ and want him at the right price, I just don’t think the likely positives of getting him outweigh the likely negatives of dealing Jones.
By the way, listening to Vinnie & Cook on 93.7 The Fan discussing these rumors for the last hour or so has killed more brain cells than alcohol ever could. Incredibly uninformed.
Good day.
Wish The Fan would hire Rocco
Dtoddwin can’t be the only baseball-knowledgable guy on the air there. Well, shouldn’t be.
As far as I know...
DT isn’t affiliated with The Fan. Did I miss something?
Good day.
I was assuming he was following the Pirates
But now I don’t recall if there was ever an announcement to that effect.
If not, whom should we petition?
Jones, Bowker, Pearce, and Doumit
Clement had already dropped off the face of the planet the year before.
Anyway, I’m not sure why the Yankees think they can demand two-thirds of a starter back for Burnett. The Pirates could take a couple more million on, send them Aaron Pribanic (hat tip to whygavs for the idea), and let them plow the money into whatever old lefty they’re pursuing for their DL platoon.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 9, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, thank you
Not Doumit, though – he wasn’t being projected at 1B for last season. But yeah, Jones, Pearce, Bowker, and Overbay all projected between 101 and 104 OPS+. And only one matched his projection (none topped it, which is another example of the Pirates’ perpetual bad luck).
well, I had just been looking at Vlad's old comment
here; I think the thought was that Doumit would be in the mix at 1B with Snyder taking the bulk of the time at C.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 9, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
No, you're exactly right
I had simply erased Doumit’s line from my mind, even as I was picturing exactly that comment.
Also, it’s funny that we were so credulous that Doumit was going to be treated as nothing more than a bench guy.
I’m totally open to realistic suggestions wherein we trade away Jones and replace him with someone else.
Maybe Brandon Allen from the A’s? Get some additional piece from NY in a cheap-Burnett for Jones trade, and spin that piece off to Oakland for Allen?
by Vlad on Feb 10, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I approve of this message
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
I like it
makes sense
Product Manager - SB Nation
by Mark_Hanna on Feb 10, 2012 2:13 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
See, there you go
Wilbur keeps saying that Jones is replaceable, which is true, but meaningless sunless you actually replace him. My whole fear – especially at this late date – is that NH would/could view a Jones/Burnett deal as resulting in an acceptable roster. Jones/Burnett and PTBNL/Allen makes my offseason complete and kind of happy.
Among other things, you’ve gotten into a position where the upside is well above 80 wins – if Burnett is revitalized by the move and Bedard stays semi-healthy, suddenly you’ve got 50+ starts coming from well above average starters (and 0 from Correia). If Pedro bounces back and someone works out at 1B, you’ve got 8 position players putting up 2+ WAR, with as many as 4 above 3 wins.
That’s still a number of ifs, but all of them are decent odds. And again, if they break for us, we’re really at a good win total – we don’t need everything to break just so merely to reach 82.
I said he’s replaceable by a halfway competent GM. You can do whatever you want with that.
But the issue seems moot now, anyway.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
Yeah, right
And actually, put that way, I agree 100%. I simply don’t have that much faith in NH anymore.
I'm not opposed to acquiring Burnett
but I also think swapping Jones for him wouldn’t be prudent at this juncture. But if they can get NY to agree to more of a salary dump kind of exchange, I say go for it. While a total collapse is a possibility, I certainly don’t think it’s the most likely outcome or even much of a possibility. AL to NL, weaker division, less pressure, fresh start, stuff & peripherals still point toward effectiveness.
by King Oskar on Feb 9, 2012 7:38 PM EST via Android app reply actions
I may be in the minority here, but I say if they can get the Yankees down to $6/7M per year giving up Jones, I would do it. While I think giving him up will remove the most potential power they have at the position, I don’t see a significant drop-off in overall production if they can figure out a time share between any of the Fox, Evans, McGehee, Hague group. Perhaps Clement will show at some point he isn’t completely useless. While none of the 4 guys listed before Clement would be perfect, Hague should hit RHP well enough to use on those days to pair with whomever wins the other spot.
Evan’s isn’t exactly a world beater in his limited time in the majors, but I think he might be serviceable for a while until one of the others step up or they can deal for a better option. I also think that McGehee will have a bounce back year, not having the injury or sick kid to worry about. So he might make a suitable starter once the season gets going.
Garret Jones & Casey Mcgehee
Both of them are better against RHP, and their splits are very similar over the past 3 years. I think adding Burnett would be huge and make our rotation very competitive.
Bedard, Burnett, Morton, Karstens and McDonald.
Thank you.
This is the same guy who was nearly non-tendered not too long ago. Do it Neal. Do it.
McGehee has a much better chance to perform, stick him at first and then try to pick up DeWitt to back up third. Suddenly this team looks like a little less of a darkhorse.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
I think I do this
I can see the problem in taking one of the few power threats off the team, but I am far more concerned with our rotation than the lineup. It would be easier to fake it at first base (where we were already third to last in OPS by position last season) with Fox/Evans/Hague/McGehee than it would be trot out Kevin Correia and some unproven AAA cannon fodder 3 out of every 5 days.
I really want to get Burnett
and am not at all opposed to giving up Jones, but if we did, I’d probably want someone else back too. It’s a tricky scenario, the real question is just how backed into a corner are the Yanks? And given the money they have, I’m not sure there’s all that much leverage. Anyway, I’d be willing to take on up to $6-7M a year in salary, for the right return (either no Jones, or another prospect back). I’d gladly give up any fringe guys mentioned— Pribanic/Harrison, etc, but that only amounts to giving up what we don’t want.
Seems to me Burnett potentially improves the rotation a lot, while losing Jones hurts the offense, at most, just a little. I don’t think a reluctance to deal Jones should hold up a Burnett deal more than, oh, 0.68 seconds.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 7:48 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
The chance that Pedro/Mcgehee continue to suck is just as good as the chance that 35 year old Burnett becomes a true 4.00 ERA pitcher and tosses 195 innings.
well sure
still if the Yanks pick up the rumored $25M, leaving us $4M a year, I’d be OK with the risk. FWIW, I like McGehee to have a decent year.
I think you under estimate jones value to the pirates
the pirates hit 107 HR in 2011 GI jones hit 16 of them. the pirates scored 610 runs and garrett knocked in 58 of them and scored 51 of them. thats a pretty good chunk of our offense. Now i am a very big advocate of #freematthague but giving up G.I. to team looking for Salary releif isnt a smart move, when we can just take on salary
age of last winning season: 5
In other words, Jones was a key ingredient in a shit offense. Kind of like . . . a replacement level player.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
the offense was shit with in it. without him it will be even worse then shit if there is such a thing
age of last winning season: 5
vomit?
harder to clean up and just as vile IMHO.
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 10, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
nah
Shit is much more diseasy, isn’t it?
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
bud selig?
been trying to get rid of that mess for years now
by johnnycuff on Feb 10, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, if you can hold off a little bit and get the Yanks to kick in a little more, go for it.
by thecheeseisblue on Feb 9, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
if Alex Dickerson were waiting in the wings
they heck yeah you make the deal.
But trading GFJ for Burnett would be a wash that ends up, of course, favoring the Yanks.
the deal might be a wash
but I’d take it, because I think Jones’ production would be easier to replace than a SP. And Burnett could (not likely, but could) go ballistic on being traded to the Pirates to get traded again to a contender
i dont think so
and its not because im not a fan of Jones, which all of you already know. mcgehee is already an improvement over Overbay so we gain at least a little bit at 1B and a whole lot at SP.
plus we still have time to look at external 1Bmen if needed, like Dimitri Young, or make a trade for someone else . (gasp)
Burnett’s value to this team is much greater than Jones, IMO
Jones, apart from his fluke rookie year, is a replacement level player (just 1.1 WAR total in two years) at a position where the Pirates can’t afford replacement level. Burnett even in his shitty 2010-11 seasons was a 1.5 WAR player per year. Back in the weaker league, he stands a good chance of being closer to 3+ WAR. The downside of trading Jones for Burnett is that it’s a wash.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Unless you go by bbRef, where he was basically replacement level (.3 WAR avg), along with Jones.
The downside is we take on $8m+ of money we can’t afford to waste while at best staying put and that is if and only if you think none of the other rotation options could come in and put up Burnett’s replacement level performance for a minimum salary.
Um . . . we’re worried about pitchers’ hitting?
while at best staying put
No, that’s really the worst-case outcome of a Jones/Burnett deal.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Um . . . we’re worried about pitchers’ hitting?
Every run counts.
With guys who are really good (like Lincoln) or really bad (like Ohlendorf) it does matter.
Exactly.
There is a noticable difference in a guy hitting for a -50 wRC+ versus a guy hitting for a 0 wRC+. Over the course of 5 different starting pitchers, that begins to add up.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Since Correia is an even weaker hitter than Burnett, I fail to see the issue here.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
I'm not talking about this specific situation, I'm talking about in general.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
no brainer
with matt hague waiting in AAA,what is neal waiting for , unless he really doesn’t have money to spend.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
Sweetleb, you do realize that Josh Harrison hit about the same as Hague in AAA, right?
Not saying Harrison’s true talent is what he hit in the bigs, or Hague’s true talent won’t allow him to hit in the bigs, but that might give one pause about doing such a deal if you believe Hague will be THE guy to take over 1st base.
They hit around the same Batting average... True
But Hague had 12 home runs compared to Josh’s 5 in AAA and Hague had 15 home runs compared to Josh’s 4 in AA. So really there is no point in comparing them. One is a 3rd baseman one is a 1st baseman.
Hague has shown he can hit for avg. and hit home runs and has a goof walk to strike out ratio
But Hague had 12 home runs compared to Josh’s 5 in AAA
And 594 PA in AAA, compared to Josh’s 254.
Hague hit a home run every 49.5 PA against AAA competition. Harrison hit one every 50.8 PA. That’s not much of a difference.
a goof walk to strike out ratio
K/BB for a hitter is one of the dumbest and least valuable statistics in common use these days. Independent K and BB rates are extremely valuable, but K/BB treats a hitter who never walks or strikes out the same as a hitter who does both all the time, even though they’re totally different types of players.
you don't know
unless you try, the more things don’t change the more they stay the same. also jones was used in a perfect position ,hitting vs righties and was very bla most of the year.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
I'd argue Jones wasn't used in a perfect position last year by any stretch, heck just look at the numbers sweetleb
.262/.346/.462 against righties in 405 plate appearances. That’s an .806 OPS against righties, and more than adequate for the fat half of the platoon on a middling team. That’s a line similar to players like Michael Cuddyer, and it is better than what Derek Lee has provided over the past 2 years, (granted, Lee is known for his defense, while Jones to put it politely is not).
The problem was he was .147/.181/.279 in 72 PA against lefties last year. That dropped his OPS by 53 points, not exactly a pointless figure.
you prove my point
405 vs 72 and his numbers are bla , .806 is nice but I Watch jones last year and he was bla 50’s runs and rbi’s and his hr numbers were bla ps cuddyer is the poster boy for bla…also 3-4-5- hitters on good teams put non-bla numbers.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
come on angus
i almost always agree with you. now granted im a big GI jones fan, but the yankees are looking for a salary dump. why should we give up anything of value? we should just pay money. Why give up someone who can play a position we are weak in, when we can just pay more salary and just give up money? i want burnett bad but i agree with N.H. 100 % if he turned away a jones for a burnett deal. the yanks are in a bad position trying to unload salary and we can take on slarary. why give up anything of value? the yanks are between a rock and a hard place right now.
age of last winning season: 5
See, this is my take
If Jones is the only way to make the deal, and it also means paying Burnett very little, then I pull the trigger. But I’d prefer to pay more $$ and give up nothing.
If we’re talking about giving up Jones and paying, I dunno, $6M+ per year, that just seems dumb. If we’re paying Burnett a salary that may exceed his value (and I agree that 3 WAR over 2 years is probably his floor), then it doesn’t make sense also to give up a guy who is, unlike a minor prospect, pretty certain to produce at least a bit at the ML level.
I always use it
Always, always. bWAR doesn’t make any sense to me (that is, the results, not their formula), whereas I can almost always see where fWAR is coming from. Sometimes I’ll argue against an fWAR number based on peripherals or whatever, but I never just switch to bWAR (I have used bWAR for historical purposes, because B-R is a bit easier to use for certain kinds of searches, but that’s apple-to-apples, and very rare).
The bottom line is that, especially when talking about what value a guy will produce, I’m much more interested in FG’s DIPS-driven pitching WAR than whatever the hell B-R does.
I usually don’t like Fangraphs’ pitching WAR because it’s so exclusively concentrated on FIP, which is kind of a crude measure as far as DIPS goes (which is part of the reason I don’t hate Correia as much as everyone else). But xFIP and SIERA both like him better than FIP, so there you go. (tERA hates him, but it seems to hate everyone.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
Well
weeee a 4.6 ERA for 190 IP instead of 4.5 ERA for 140 innings of Correia and hopefully better from the next in line for the last 50+ innings.
I also have to figure fWAR doesn’t make sense at times either when a guy is walking a crap load, then giving up a ton of homers, and they still say he is valuable.
There are outliers
But we all know that HR/FB is almost never under a pitcher’s control. So yeah, I want to see that number controlled for. If the FIP doesn’t make sense in terms of the outcomes, then you look to see – is it Morton pumping belt-high FBs when he’s behind in the count, or is it a guy with a career 11.6% HR/FB suddenly going 17%, with no detectable change in stuff?
It depends on the situation, I think. I was under the impression that bWAR used a normalized ERA in their calculations, while fWAR used FIP. As such, I would use fWAR as a better indicator of talent and future performance, while bWAR may be a more accurate description of what occurred. So bWAR says that AJ Burnett got hammered last year, and fWAR says that he didn’t throw that poorly and deserved to get this much.
by thecheeseisblue on Feb 10, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
right
Although I’d say that, even retrospectively, the truth is somewhere in between. A guy who gets lucky with walks not becoming runs isn’t really providing extra value, he just happens to be on the mound when the team gets lucky. By the same token, a guy getting victimized by a poor defense truly hasn’t done anything to hurt his team (except for failing to be a strikeout machine).
so fWAR is floor wins above replacement?
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure if this is a serious question, but if so fWAR is Fangraphs WAR, bWAR is Baseball Reference WAR.
by thecheeseisblue on Feb 10, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
it is and i'm old
but curious about sabre metrics. thank you tcib.
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
bWAR is also sometimes called rWAR
because it was basically invented by a guy nicknamed “rally.”
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Jones doesn't get you in the playoffs.
Keeping Jones on the team does not get you to the playoffs this year. Not saying that Burnett would, but if we are playing for the future, AJ could have a good year and be moved to another team for more than what we could get out of Jones. I think there is a lot more reward with only a little more risk. Do we look at this team as it is today and say yeah we have a contender. But if we fill a void in the rotation and go after a solution at 1B we can make this team respectable, possibly go .500 and not hurt the team going forward. Its not like we are going to be attached to this guy for 5 years. In all likelihood neither guy is going to be here in a couple of years. I think there are more reasons to do the deal than not to. Plus I would like to see the Bucs actually make a splash rather than talk about it. Could it turn into a bad deal? Sure but like I said pretty soon both guys will be gone and it wont have mattered anyway.
What?
Um, that doesn’t make much sense, Jones is expendable and they need more pitching. I wonder if the Pirates are waiting to see what Dmitri Young can do before they decide to move Jones….
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
I highly doubt Dmitri Young has anything to do with anything.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 9, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Jim Bowden thinks a team should take a chance on Dmitri...
You gotta aim high to fail so big. - Trace Beaulieu
Losing jones would slightly deepen an already deep hole
Acquiring Burnett would fill in a gaping hole that is Kevin Correia. I’d have little problem with sacrificing a marginal 1B to turn my horrible 5th starter into a solid, if aging, number 2 starter. Jones is only like half a player, since he can’t hit leftys and isnt good at first defensively
by theatrain on Feb 9, 2012 8:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
No, it’s just a hole that would remain a hole.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
In
a year that’s arguably lost anyway. Bring on the torches.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 9, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
All the more reason to make the move. Jones has no future at 1B for the Pirates, and he’s on the wrong side of 30 and hence a candidate to collapse at any time. Nothing is lost by giving a shot to McGehee (not that I’m a big fan) or Hague or whomever else they can come up with.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That
is an argument I can completely buy into.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 9, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
i'd trade Jones of course, as i ve already said
but we might be looking at an infield of Hague, Walker, Barmes, McGehee :-)
Well, damn
Instead of an utterly useless offense, we might end up with . . . . . . . an utterly useless offense!
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
No offense
But it’s actually possible to be worse. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I’ve seen the same hyperbole, that we sucked with Jones, therefore sucking without him would be identical. But we didn’t have the worst offense in baseball in 2011. There’s plenty of room to get worse on offense in 2012. Using non-quantitative terms like “useless” doesn’t make the actual numbers go away.
There’s also plenty of room for the rotation to get better and it exceeds any risk to the offense from losing Jones. It’s not like we’re talking about finding a 100 or so OPS+ to play short. Replacement level offense at 1B shouldn’t be hard for a halfway competent GM to find. Any GM who can’t find that much offense at first on the fly shouldn’t be a GM. The potential difference between Burnett and Correia, otoh, is hard to find, nearly impossible at this stage for a team with the Pirates’ resources.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
so we could lose 90 with him and we can lose 90 without him?
where have i heard that before?
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Nothing is lost by giving a shot to McGehee (not that I’m a big fan) or Hague or whomever else they can come up with.
Well, probably some games are lost if they go with Hague, since he doesn’t hit like a starting 1B.
Do The Trade
I’ve seen my share of the Pirates trading great or really good players for absolutely nothing so I see trading a decent player for a decent player a big improvement. Jones’ value is higher for the yankees being a lefty in that stadium. A Jones to Mcgahee/Evans/Fox/Whoever decline would be less than the Correia to Burnett improvement. We need guys to hold down the pitching staff until the big boys get here in a couple years anyway and Burnett can do that.
oh you mean trading gold glover and fan favorite nate mclouth for charlie morton, jeff locke, resop, and bryan morris?? pirates win there. or trading nyjer morgan and sean burnett and got hanrahan in return? pirates win there. or trading xavier nady and damaso marte for dan mccutchen, tabata, karstens, ohlendorf? pirates win there. jack wilson (couldnt even keep his starting SS job in seattle when he got there) and ian snell (sucked in SEA and retired year after) for Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeño, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, and Nathan Adcock? pirates win once again.
maybe Klinger's share is just really small?
There was Bay and Gorzo/Grabow as losses. I’m hesitant to include the Bautista for Diaz, because at the time it was pretty much a wash iirc.
You also forgot the Dotel trade as a win.
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 10, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
Jason Schmidt for Armando Rios and Vogelsong? Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton for Bobby Hill, Jose Hernandez and Matt Bruback? Leo Nunez for Benito Santiago? Rajai Davis for Matt Morris? Jose Guillen for Joe Oliver? Adam Laroche for Argenis Diaz? And what has happened to at the time uber-prospect Tim Alderson? is he even in our top 20 prospects anymore? These are trades that have shaped this franchise for 20 years. don’t throw in a couple trades the last 2 or 3 years where we did OK and act like i’m not completely right.
by Klinger2069 on Feb 10, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
haha. You kind of were asking for it there rinsana, but yes, the Pirates do come out on top sometimes. I personally would like this trade. If the bucs only have to pay 6 mil a year then why not? I mean he is still striking out about a batter per inning, will give us 200 innings good or bad without getting completely embarrassed which at this point I’ll take a guy just based on that, and is moving from pitching in Yankee Stadium against the AL East to PNC Park while pitching in the NL Central with the losses of the 2 biggest pirate killers in recent memory. We are already pretty much screwed at 1B anyway… Unless we sign CESPEDES and have him play there!!!!!!!!!! That’s probably the most likely outcome.
"... don’t throw in a couple trades the last 2 or 3 years..."
Those are the ones that need to be addressed, because they affect the current team.
Citing shitty trades that DL made have nothing to do with anything anymore. He’s not the GM.
NEXT.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 10, 2012 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, really DL trades really aren't worth bringing up if you are talking about future trades
saying you want a deal for a big league player just because previous regimes made so many bad trades is related to saying you expect the Pirates to win a lot because they have a great history, both are stupid but on different ends of the scale.
to be fair
If you’re talking about your general despair as a Pirates fan, I think it’s OK to bring up DL’s trades.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
DL trades still hurting us
They might have been a long time ago but we are still feeling them. NH took over the 30th out of 30 farm systems and has had to make a ton of trades just to bring us to the middle of the pack. Trust me, I’m also a huge Detroit Lions fan and Matt Millen’s screw ups didnt just vanish when he got fired. same thing with DL.
can someone explain how the money exchanged would work? Can’t think of any salary dumps with this much money being added (more than the player was going to make in the upcoming season). Let’s say Yanks chip in 20 mill
- would the money be paid in a lump sum, 2 years, more years?
- does the money count against their luxery cap?
I'd probably hold off unless Burnett's salary was paid almost in full.
Neither player will change the team drastically in 2012 or 2013, and I’d rather trade Jones for something younger. I’d like Burnett if we were paying him close to nothing and NH thought we could flip him at the deadline for some prospects.
I’d be interesting in paying more of Burnett’s salary if we had a prospect come along from the Yankees in the deal. I’ve got some interest in players like Christopher Austin, Austin Romine, Adam Warren, Cito Culver, and David Phelps. I think one of those players on that list should be obtainable in this deal.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Feb 9, 2012 8:57 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’d rather trade Jones for something younger.
Jones has little trade value. He’s only coming up here because the Yankees want Burnett off their hands. Any trade here would be more about the Yankees getting rid of however much salary the Pirates will take on than about Jones. That’s the sad part of it. The Yankees want him as a useful spare part, but the Pirates won’t part with him because they regard a replacement level 1B as vital.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
well that
and potentially, because they’ve been looking for lefty hitters, and really I’d take Jones easily over a guy like Ibanez.
yeah
why give up a guy who could be usefull to a team that just needs salary relief? the yanks need salary releif we need starting pitching, take on the salary DONT give up a usefull piece. WE have money to spend, use money not a usefull player. thats all i am saying. also jones is a very usefull bench piece, so what if he gets 2.5 this year in ARB, thats nothing , and if next year we have a 1st baseman and he is a bench player, hes a usefull left handed bat off the bench for around 4 mill.
age of last winning season: 5
So . . . with spring training about to start, where is this useful player we’re going to spend this money on?
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, also . . . if you think the Pirates are going to carry a bench bat that costs $4M, you haven’t been following much the last four years.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
my point is
THe yankees need salaray relief. There back is against the wall. Why should we give up a guy who is usefull for us when we can just pay money>?
age of last winning season: 5
Oh, well I have no problem with that, assuming the deal can be made.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
so are you ok with us
giving up 16 mill and paying burnett 8mill a year if it means keeping jones? thats all i am saying. why give up a usefull player when we can just pay money witch we should have plenty of
age of last winning season: 5
exactly money of players the yanks are in
a bad position take adavntage take on slary and keep players
age of last winning season: 5
Wouldn't you rather just spend say 13 million this year on Roy Oswalt than take on 16 million for 2 years of Burnett?
Hypothetically speaking of course
Not really
Oswalt, to me, looks like he’s on the verge of breaking down physically. Burnett’s quite durable and also his peripherals suggest he’s due for better numbers with better luck.
Moot point
Oswalt has said over and over that he’ll only sign with a contender, and the Pirates were told not to bother making him an offer.
And NN82 is right that Oswalt is a far bigger risk than Burnett now.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
Why should we give up a guy who is usefull for us when we can just pay money>?
It’s a risk. If you’re playing hardball on negotiations, don’t let it slip away.
As I posted in a different thread, I don’t think the Yanks have their backs against the wall when it comes to salary. Heck, they may want or prefer to get out of some, but that’s prolly about it.
Let's clear something up here
The Yankees don’t need salary relief. They would like to get him off the books, but in reality, his salary is a tiny drop in a huge bucket…even if they do reach the luxury tax limit.
Wanting to is nice for them, but they in no way shape or form need to. Which is my only point here. Carry on.
but why not take advantage
NOt give up a usefull player get a starting pitcher and keep jones
age of last winning season: 5
Because if we play hardball over $2M and keeping Jones, I think the Yankees will balk and say F’ you guys and keep him. Or trade him for something better than Jones and get a similar deal.
but who?
no ones giving up shit for burnett thats why they are talking to us in the first place
age of last winning season: 5
Can somebody help me out here?
Didn’t I hear that there is a clause in the new CBA providing for a larger penalty based on consecutive years over the salary limit? If so, the the NYY would get more benefit being under the limit one year and they can then spend away the next with a lower tax.
Didn’t I hear that there is a clause in the new CBA providing for a larger penalty based on consecutive years over the salary limit?
That’s my understanding.
We can't say for absolute sure...
because none of us have actually seen the new CBA. MLBPA still has the 2007-2011 agreement online.
You are correct, Jones does have little trade value.
Burnett has even less.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
+1
thats why we can get him for pure money and not gibve up a usefull player
age of last winning season: 5
Burnett has less only due to his salary. If it weren’t for that, he’d have dramatically more trade value than Jones. But Burnett has more on-field value to the Pirates, so hanging onto Jones with the idea of trading him later makes no sense.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'd trade Jones for a C+ prospect 1 for 1
and be happier than trading him for Burnett.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
A random C+ prospect
Is highly unlikely to provide more value than Burnett would over the next two years.
Unless we are trading for Burnett to flip him again, I'm not really worried about his small on the field value.
Its money spent on a season that is over at the MLB level before it started, and Burnett’s age makes him a serious candidate for decline.
I also think he has an attitude that would lead him to half assing it if he was traded to the Pirates.
I’d rather take a flyer on a prospect, save the money, and let Owens/Locke/Lincoln/McPherson/Martis get some starts to see what we have with those guys.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Geez why do you even care what happens then
Neither piece is important to the future see ya in 2014
by tbote123 on Feb 9, 2012 10:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
is it spelled jeez or geez
I dont know im drunk sorry that comment sounded dickish
by tbote123 on Feb 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Don't be jealous I'm realistic.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
agree
bottom line you can’t get to greedy with yankees, they would like to save some and feel a need for thier team. 23-25 million they would need to pick up. would save 8-10 mill and get jones any thing less the might as well keep aj and try to move him at the dead line, remember burnett is at the lowest point of his trade value right now.
"please buy the team mr. cuban"
unless they also need 40 man roster space real bad
they are going to say “no, thank you” to prospect + burnett. Those are nice hypothetical deals, but will not happen.
None of those guys are that great
I don’t see the problem with parting with one, especially if we took on a bit more salary.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Everybody needs money, they just need it less than everybody else.
If I’m correct, we save them more than the payroll cost because it reduces the amount by which they are over the salary cap which should reduce their luxury tax.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
yeah good luck getting austin romine. hes the catcher in waiting behind russel martin since montero got shipped to seattle. no way we get him
Why, we traded Nady and Marte who had less value than Jones individually for Tabata
And Tabata was/is better than any prospect I had listed by a decent margin.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
by Kosstic518 on Feb 10, 2012 6:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I disagree with that.
Nady was in the middle of an absurdly unsustainable .363 BABIP 2.5 WAR half season with the Pirates, after posting WARs of 1.7, 0.1, 0.8, 0.4, and 1.0 from 2003-2007. Everybody knew his hot streak was unsustainable, and he proceeded to finish 2008 with the Yankees with a .290 BABIP and 0.7 WAR. He then missed most of 2009 due to injuries (a known problem with him which he faced before), and posted -0.4 WAR and -0.2 WAR in the following 2 years. I guess if you didn’t know about sabermetrics you would have thought Nady had more value, but the reality is he was not that valuable at all.
Meanwhile Marte was a 33 year old reliever, who while better than average, was still a reliever being paid $2.2 MM. Back then a WAR was worth less than $5MM, so he wasn’t as valuable on a relative basis. Based on his age he was a clear decline candidate, and that is exactly what happened after he was traded.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
The Yankees obviously disagreed. So did the rest of MLB, since the Pirates were widely regarded as having gotten hosed. Nady had long been regarded as a talented player who’d been held back by injuries. He also had a 143 OPS+ at the time of the trade. Whether that was sustainable isn’t necessarily the point for a team stocking up for the post season. Marte was a very good, sometimes outstanding, lefty setup guy, which is often a priority for a team like the Yankees. His salary was lunch money for them. Whether you agree with the way they were viewed or not (and I’m guessing that the Yankees, unlike you, didn’t take into account how the players did in the years after the trade), the trade was regarded at the time as a win for NY. Jones, otoh, has clearly established himself as a bench or complementary player and nothing more.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
So you think it was an acceptable assumption at the trade deadline for Nady to continue BABIPing .363 for the remainder of the season and into the playoffs?
I think that says all we need to know about your argument.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
And all we need to know about yours is that nobody in MLB shared your views of Nady and Marte. Not to mention Vlad’s note that the Angels refused to trade a backup SS for Jones when he had more value than he has now.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
Except for Huntington
And look who won that trade, by a massive margin. MLB was wrong, and it was more obvious at the time than most people will want to believe because Nady was playing out of his mind at a completely unsustainable rate.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
I’m happy to give NH a lot of credit for that trade. But getting a good prospect for Jones ain’t happenin’ in this reality.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
Depends on your definition of a good prospect
I’d gladly take anyone in their top 20/25 except maybe a few players with significant injury issues.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Holy crap
The Pirates should be jumping all over this. Jones is hardly better than a replacement level player. Why do you people hate Nick Evans so much? I think over a full season Evans (in large part due to defense) would be about the same if not better (he just turned 26 too!) than Garrett Jones. Burnett is a CLEAR upgrade an epic rebound candidate. I appreciate NH making them sweat a bit but I will be beside myself if we blow this opportunity. Btw Vlad it turns out the Yankees DID want Jones. So…
by Mingy on Feb 9, 2012 9:02 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Jones is NOT GOOD. derrek lee is also no longer good. Burnett is 3+ WAR player. Goddamnit we better make this deal!!!! Argh!
by Mingy on Feb 9, 2012 9:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Goddamnit we better make this deal!!!! Argh!
Remember this is the same organization that alledgely could of had Ryan Howard if they would of given up Kip Wells. We didn’t and look what happened.
We need pitching, make this deal Neal please!!
Ovechkin-Leich-Semin: The greatest line in hockey..............................Tee Hee
Proud supporter of the following clubs: Pittsburgh Penguins, Erie Otters, Columbus Crew, Boston Celtics and the best football clubs in the land: Manchester United F.C.
The Manchester United Football Club: Winning countless trophies and making City fans jealous and full of envy since 1902.
by Bradley James McEachern on Feb 10, 2012 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
I believe the rumored trade that wasn’t made was former #1 overall pick Kris Benson for Ryan Howard. And that was over a decade ago with a completely different front office from top to bottom. So… how is it related to his topic again? matter?
by King Oskar on Feb 10, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that’s what i think though. I think statistics back it up. there are so many good reasons to make this deal. I can easily see Burnett’s performance lining up more with his periphreals and winding up being a very good starting pitcher. It’s not going to win us the world series or anything – but my goodness a revamped Burnett would make a sparkling trade piece at 4 million a year for this year and next year.
Yup. If fWAR was based on xFIP instead of FIP...
Burnett was EASILY a 3-win player last year (3.86 xFIP).
They simply made the call, due to the nature of what WAR is trying to do (assess actual value over a season) to “blame” the pitcher for home runs instead of blaming the pitcher only for fly balls, whereas on balance it makes more sense to do the latter if you’re wondering about talent/projection.
by tobynotjason on Feb 10, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
"CLEAR upgrade"
You keep using that word. I don’t think that word means what you guys think it means. (to all supporters of this deal, not singling you out mingy)
he is an upgrade
3.86 xFIP last year. If he does that here his ERA and other numbers should normalize. That’s just ONE PART of the many reasons why it would be a good idea. adding a dependable healthy pitcher that K’s nearly one per inning to our rotation would be a clear upgrade, would it not?
If you don’t think AJ Burnett will post at least 2 WAR in the NL central you’re a silly goose
Not if he's terrible at other things
like walking people and giving up home runs. And I mean the team, in total. Burnett is probably an upgrade over KC, but I don’t think it’s a definite at all that that will make up for the drop from Jones to whomever. It also burns up our FA cash for next year.
Don’t forget the likely financial gains the Bucs would get by having a guy like Burnette. Think of all those lemmings on Smizik’s blog. “He was a Yankee, must be a HOF’er” mentality. His stats would probably make him our #2 guy behind, gulp, the man with no arm for half a season. I think him being on the mound ever 5 days would draw people into the stadium for name recognition.
Seems like a silly argument, but it seems like a win-win for the Bucs to me.
I’m not talking Pujols type attendance spikes, but I would be willing to bet that he draws an additional 3-5k per game when he starts over a guy like KC. If I were in Pitt and casually followed baseball like a lot of fans, and I saw a guy that I recognized on the hill for the Bucs, it would make me think more about going.
+1
I bet you bragging rights that the reaction on Smizik’s blog isn’t “ooh, awesome ex-Yankee” but “this guy had an ERA over 5.00! He sucks! We’re pushing All-Star Kevin Correia out of the rotation for him!”
(I’m not actually going to look at Smizik’s blog, so no fear I’ll collect.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 9, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not actually going to look at Smizik’s blog
Good move. It could be contagious.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
"I’m not actually going to look at Smizik’s blog, so no fear I’ll collect"
Has anyone told you your a very smart person Zane?
Ovechkin-Leich-Semin: The greatest line in hockey..............................Tee Hee
Proud supporter of the following clubs: Pittsburgh Penguins, Erie Otters, Columbus Crew, Boston Celtics and the best football clubs in the land: Manchester United F.C.
The Manchester United Football Club: Winning countless trophies and making City fans jealous and full of envy since 1902.
by Bradley James McEachern on Feb 10, 2012 1:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 7:52 AM EST up reply actions
i completely agree
his name recognition WILL ALSO increase his trade value when we flip him for a king’s ransom after he comes out and dominates the Houston Astros a few times.
Think about it, you guys. What is Jones going to do for us? What is his ceiling? Nothing. Burnett has GOOD chance to be super valuable to us. The floor of this trade is a wash. The ceiling is much much higher. This is a risk we need to take
The question I keep asking myself is
in regards to internal options. If you trade Jones, who replaces him? Some combination of Hague, McGehee, Fox, or maybe get Evans. If you keep Jones, who goes into that 5th spot in the rotation? Correia? Lincoln? Looking at it that way, and the fact that I think Burnett would be a solid rebound candidate out of the AL and Yankee Stadium, I’d trade Jones for Burnett.
By the way . . . .
The fact that the Pirates are afraid to make this move for fear of having no firstbaseman—assuming the real issue here is them not wanting to part with Jones, which may not be the case—is a direct consequence of NH’s failure to upgrade the position this off-season.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
True
although in the bizarro Pirates world this could still work out for NH. Trade Jones for Burnett and end up signing someone semi-useful like Evans.
No actually...I'm a shiddiot
Didn’t realize they signed him…feelin pretty stupid. Either way, I think they have lots of options at 1B if they trade Jones.
if i'm NH
I’m on the phone with Billy Beane and seeing what it would take to get Brandon Allen ..pulling that trigger and immediately pulling the Jones/Burnett trigger..it would be like a shooting range with all the triggers being pulled
Top Ten Comps
A quick look at BB-Refs top ten comparables after age 34 for Burnett isn’t encouraging. The nine retired guys averaged 4 remaining career wins, and no one had an ERA below 5.00.
by sanny manguillen on Feb 9, 2012 9:23 PM EST reply actions
Sim Scores uses career numbers, though, and a lot of those guys were already demonstrably washed up going into the last season prior to the comp.
Burnett was 34 last year. The #1 comp, Ken Hill, had put up a 7.16 ERA in his age-34 season. Jason Schmidt only made six starts (with a 6.31 ERA) in his age-34 season due to arm surgery. Same goes for Pedro Astacio’s age-34 season (seven starts, 7.36 ERA). Etc.
Just tossing this out there...
Rumors are rumors, I get that, but word was Jones was almost shipped to LA for Mathis. I’d rather see him shipped off for Burnett than see him dumped at the end of the season.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
Eh.
My overall point still stands.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
That at the end of the season, if he's still here, he'll probably be non-tendered.
He came dangerously close this year. Had this trade come up before the deadline the Pirates may have pulled the trigger a lot faster.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
by Nate Wilder on Feb 10, 2012 4:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so does NY still got Swisher on the block too?
lets make it a block party!!
Threads too long to read at this point
but I have to say I can’t wait for this off season to be over, because everyone’s gone completely insane in the past few weeks.
The team will be flirt with .500 if Cutch, Walker and Tabata improve. Drafts will look better if Pedro hits .250. Pitching will be fine if Locke, Wilson, Owens or McPherson steps up.
It’s always been about 2013 and 2012 doesn’t matter.
it could really flirt with .500
if getting traded to the Pirates lights a bit of a fire under Burnett!
I wouldn't be opposed to it.
I think this could be a good situation to try and pry away a prospect as well. Perhaps put Jones and a reliever in the package. Pick up a reasonable (middle of the road) amount of Burnett’s contract and have them throw in a prospect that would rank somewhere from their 15 to 20 range.
I'm okay with throwing in a reliever.
We have to many any most of ours are of little value.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
Couple Points i haven't heard yet
1. Jones was very close to being non tendered a few weeks ago
2. Jones will still be due more in arbitration than he is worth
3. Adding Burnett may change D. Lee’s mind
4. X Nady is still a free agent
5. I’ve heard rumors of the Pirates paying 4mil/yr of Burnett’s salary. This will actually work out to $8mil/yr because the bucs will be forced to release Correia
6. Find it interesting that we are not on Burnett’s no trade list – I’d be interested in hearing his comments on the matter
7. Our current opening day starter is probably Jeff Karstens
I am for it – we need to change the face of the Pirates amongst the inner baseball circles of the player association
about the no-trade list
This is sheer speculation, but according to a couple of gossip sites I found, Burnett’s wife lives in Baltimore and has a severe fear of flying. That might make Pittsburgh a relatively attractive destination. (Probably not as attractive as New York itself, but it might account for why you’d leave it off your limited no-trade list.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 9, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
sometime the no trade list sort of works opposite of what most people might think. players want to keep leverage so they place teams that will likely be in the playoffs on the list because they expect to be traded to good teams midseason. that way they can sort of pick and choose which teams they are traded to during the season.
therefore, no good player is expecting to be traded to the Pirates because they are not very good on a regular basis.
by Cainyoudigit on Feb 9, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, partly that
also, having the NTC means they can get the Yanks or Sox or a big market team (if they want to trade for the player) to sweeten the deal a bit more as the cost of waiving the NTC.
dont think they would release Correia
he did WIN 12 last year and had a 2.8ish ERA on the road ..there is something there
Xavier Nady is a big NO! we’re trying to improve the D and we have rh bats
i would have said “Brandon Allen is still out there”
by patient pirate on Feb 9, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
X Nady is still a free agent
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 9, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we take Swish and his 10mil
they take Correia and his 5mil. we get AJB for 8mil per and 5 on Swish = 13mil ..right around the budget. we would probably have to throw in a little more value there somewhere
DO IT NOW.
1. Burnett is better than KC.
2. Bucs would actually save $2 mil on GFJ’s salary versus replacement.
3. Bucs could still make a deal for a 1B.
4. I would prefer to never watch another GFJ at-bat again.
by bucket of jim bibby sweat on Feb 9, 2012 11:00 PM EST reply actions
I dunno, GFJ's walkoff homer off Arthur Rhodes last year is worth watching again and again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXOPKtA4Oo
(about 5 seconds into that video… couldn’t find the real mlb.com source)
May 13, 2012
- “Pittsburgh Pirates trade for 1B Lyle Overbay to improve struggling offense”
by Mr. E on Feb 10, 2012 2:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe it is not about Jones, but the money? just remind me the JJ Hardy case, the trade chip is not important, but they do care about the little money.
brendan harris’s 1.2 mil or so was a hold up there supposedly
by patient pirate on Feb 9, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
if we had traded for Hardy and Harris..
we wouldnt have been able to have the arguments about the merits of keeping Ronny Cedeno :)
by patient pirate on Feb 10, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Off Topic:
Your Adelaide Bite players this ABL season haven’t been up to much
Rinku Singh was a fair bit worse than last year when he played for Canberra.
Ryan Beckman was better than Rinku and the most useful of the bunch.
Calvin Anderson the only Pirates hitter on the team went .253/.297/.482
Not that great for the level of the league. Perth Heat play Melbourne Aces this weekend in the Grand Final.
I’m rooting for the Heat – even though the Aces are underdogs.
yeah
RInku got off to a ridiculous start but really tailed off.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
The best set for Rinku is loogy
it’s a small size sample, but he looks OK against lefty for me.
I saw Anderson
when the Bite played in Sydney and he is big man with a big strike zone and that gets him into trouble. He hit a couple of fly ball outs and a couple of singles but he wasn’t as good as Stefan Welch who is the 3rd baseman for the Bite and is also in the Pirates system. I did see Anderson club a couple of home runs againsy Sydney in Adelaide (via live stream) and he certainly has a lot of power if he connects, but the connecting is the hard part for him.
by Aussiepirate on Feb 10, 2012 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
Don't forget Stefan Welch.
Minor league FA signed from the Mets. He’s hitting .279/.357/.558, which isn’t bad at all.
Welch hit OK in the FSL last year as a 22-year-old repeating the level. If he can play well and get up to AA this year at 23, he might have a shot at a career.
Once again...tossing this out there.
Huntington is pretty friendly with Cashman and Epstein.
Maybe it’s on hold for now, and the brass will try to land DeWitt as 3rd base insurance, allowing them to put McGehee at first.
I really think the fact that if Jones goes all that’s left at third is d’Arnaud and Harrison is holding it up.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
That is unless an NRI plays to par and can spell McGehee from first.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
-Earl Weaver
I have yet to see why everyone is convinced that McGehee can be a starting 1B.
He’s had less than 200 fielding chances at the position in his professional career. At about 9 chances a game for a normal 1B…that is a little over 20 games worth of experience at the position…in 9 seasons. And about 2 starts worth of that (21 chances) in the majors.
Having been wrong about Clement
I’m officially open to the idea that, with just a little practice (such as 6 weeks of ST), anyone can play tolerable 1B.
That said, small things, like Jones’ yips on the 3-6-3 DP in 2010, may not get fixed, and can make a difference (without checking, I think Jones’ poor 1B in 2010 cost him half a win relative to his RF in 2009 or his solid 1B in 2011). It’s not like McGehee is likely to have so much surplus offense that we can afford a -10 runs on D.
Doesn’t seem likely that McGehee will have similar yips on the 3-6-3, though; if he can throw from third to first he should be able to throw from first to second. There could be another issue, I guess, but it seems like the 3B-to-1B conversion could be smoother.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Feb 10, 2012 7:58 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I do prefer his 3B pedigree to RF
But comfort with baserunner proximity is def. a new thing for guys taking up 1B, and an unpredictable one. Maybe Casey will nail the 3-6-3 while freaking out every time he charges on the wheel play. None of it’s crippling if his OPS+ is 120, but if it’s 105….
yep
there’s an unnatural obsession with D at 1B for some. I’m pretty certain any ML infielder could handle it with reps.
Ladies and Gentlemen...
I give you…Ryan Doumit.
i bet if Doumit had reps
he’d handle it too. Although there’s always the chance that he could be the exception that proves the rule
I have yet to see why everyone is convinced that McGehee can be a starting 1B.
Well, on the defensive end of things, pretty much anybody can play 1B to one degree or another. It’s the easiest position on the diamond, and the main place where teams hide no-glove guys.
I’m less convinced of his ability to hit like a 1B, but I guess we’ll see.
Looks Like Front Burner
According to John Heyman
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/yankees-pirates-talking-aj-burnett-trade.html
Still think the Buccos land him
without G.I Jones going the other way
Let's get Burnett
And trade him before the season starts to Boston for one of their young AAA starting pitchers. No brainer.
Jones
HEY YOU GUYS!! LETS JUST LET jONES HIT THE WAY HE CAN AND FIRE THAT A-HOLE WHO MESSED HIS HITTING UP LAST YEAR. HE WILL NOT HIT OVER 265-280 BUT THE HOME RUNS HE CAN MUSTER WILL GIVE HIM 100-115 RBI THIS YEAR. JUST KEEP THAT HITTING COACH IN THE DUGOUT WHERE HE BELONGS IF HE BELONGS ANYWHERE IN PNC. GARRET WILL DO FINE
this is easily solved
1. yankees sign derrek lee.
2. yankees trade d. lee and his whole salary plus burnett and the minority of his salary for g. jones
3. pirates get d. lee
From Heyman
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
#yankees 1st offered to pay pirates less than one-third of aj’s $33M, something closer to a 50-50 split. on cbsports.com blog
If that's true this offer is a complete joke. I'm not considering this deal for less than 75% of his salary.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
#yankees 1st offered to pay pirates less than one-third of aj’s $33M, something closer to a 50-50 split. on cbsports.com blog
Heh. That’s so delusional, it’s almost cute.
Would we have expected anything less delusional coming from New York? I’m sure their fans are all for that trade suggestion.
Heh
Reminds me of when they were trying to unload Jeff Weaver. Their fans thought they should get Brian Giles, who was still in his prime, PLUS one of our two top prospects.
No one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of Yankee fans.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
read the comments on MLBTR
they are retard zombies. They’re like yinzers infected with the T-virus
by Mingy on Feb 10, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1 and rec
For a T-virus reference.
That’s the post of the day.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
The piece he wrote about this for CBS Sports says “more than” one-third of the $33 million. I think Heyman just messed up the tweet, because the “50-50 split” comment doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 10, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Rather, the CBS piece says the Yankees wanted the Pirates to pay more than one-third of the $33 million. The point still stands.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 10, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
If we're paying $11M
The player needs to be Jeff Clement. Or maybe Jacob Brumfield.
Biggest reason not to take on salary is that it makes flipping him harder, but it seems like there’s a sweet spot in there somewhere.
It's all about the money
In a bubble, I’m willing to gamble Burnett will provide more value over Correia (and/or whatever combination of replacement-level AAA callups we may use this season as our 5th starter) than Jones over whoever platoons at 1B.
Burnett was worth 1.2 fWAR the year (that’s still 1.2 more than Correia or replacement level), while Jones was worth 0.9 fWAR.
I’m pretty sure somebody (Hague, Evans, McGehee, Dmitri…) can do better than -0.3 fWAR at 1B to get us a net win.
And I’m counting on some improvement from Burnett given the better environment.
Now about the money part of the equation :
If the Yankees really want to decrease their payroll first and foremost, getting rid of Burnett being just a bonus, why would they accept to take Jones’ salary (MLB-TR estimates it at $4M or $5M) and pay all but $4M or even $6M of Burnett’s salary like some here are asking (albeit another $4-6M in 2013). Are they that desperate for at most $8M over 2 years ?
Maybe I’m completely wrong here, or I must be missing something …
In my mind, it means the Yankees should be asking the Pirates to take at least half if not the majority of Burnett’s salary. Which I put between $8M and $10M. Now, are FC and NH ready to add $8-10M to our payroll, especially next year when a couple of FA upgrades may finally mean something.
take Jones’ salary (MLB-TR estimates it at $4M or $5M) a
I m going off memory here, but I think both numbers entered into the arb process are less than 3M for Jones
by BurgherKing on Feb 10, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
you are correct
2.25 vs 2.5 million if i recall correctly
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
calling if Jones gets traded to the yanks, he will become that consistent 20+ HR guy for a few years that the pirates want playing at 1st for them. if he goes to the yanks, he’ll primarily be their DH and will only worry about hitting, will get most of the better pitches at the plate (with the likes of Grandy, Tex, Arod, Swisher, Russell Martin, Cano batting around him), and the RF line porch at yankee stadium is shorter (314 compared to 320)
given playing time, jones would almost certainly hit 20 HRs in yankee stadium. the park is probably the best place in the league for left handed power hitters.
exactly, so I think this is a bad deal even though i am for acquiring Burnett. if we can get him for someone other than GFJ, i would easily do it. or apparently the buccos are looking at Joe Blanton too
not sure i see the point here
he wont have the value in PNC that he will in Yankee Stadium because of the RF porch and winds. I don’t see how keeping him is useful to us.
by BurgherKing on Feb 10, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
getting more playing time at 1st and more at bats as a Bucco, i think would equate to better power numbers. and yeah he cant hit leftties, but cant improvements be made with his stance and approach with instructions from a HITTING COACH!!! isnt that what their job is, to COACH AND TEACH HITTING TIPS AND MAKE IMPROVEMENTS on players flaws?
and look at this HR chart from Yankee Stadium in 2011. 208 HRs hit, 2.58 HRs per game. and just look at the dense amount of blue dots in right field alone. with a shorter height for the right field fence as a plus (not being 21 ft like PNC) and the right field line distance being shorter (314 compared to 320 at PNC), this would be a bad deal getting rid of him. I know for a fact everyone on here and through the media is absolutely blathering about how Jones is “on the wrong side of 30s years old”, “wont get any better going forward in his career”, “is just a platoon guy and cant hit lefties”, among other comments. if he leaves, just wait and see what happens PEOPLE OF BUCS DUGOUT THAT WANT HIM GONE and are underrating him. he will thrive and get the HR numbers pirate fans have always wanted from a 1B. then pirate fans will then complain that huntington traded him away no matter how Burnett does….aka the “trading away good players” shpiel people whine about. just wait and see
http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2011_4462&type=ballpark
Let me get this straight
you argument goes like this:
1. Jones will hit more HRs at Yankee Stadium because of the shorter distance in RF and the shorter (height) wall.
2. Since he would perform better at a stadium more suited for his strengths, the Pirates should hold on to him so that he isn’t able to perform better because it would look bad for a player to leave PNC and do better.
3. So, lets keep a player who performs at replacement level instead of trading for an upgrade at a position of need because the traded player’s stats may improve with a change in venue.
Is that about it? We shouldn’t upgrade the team because Jones may perform better and that may look bad? Nice.
I hope that the GM of my team doesn’t use that type of logic when deciding to trade players.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 10, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
umm I most certainly think if Jones were to play an entire season at 1st, he would be a 20 HR hitter for the pirates. thats all anyone wants here and all throughout the media is power output numbers from a first baseman!! am i right or am i right?? 21, 21, and 16 HRs in his 3 seasons isnt exactly a fluke and at a position the pirates have been lacking in power for along time in First Base. having another 20 HR guy in the lineup other than cutch would most certainly help this offensively challanged lineup. and yeah he cant hit leftties, but cant improvements be made with his stance and approach with instructions from a HITTING COACH!!! isnt that what their job is, to COACH AND TEACH HITTING TIPS AND MAKE IMPROVEMENTS on players flaws? and i almost guarantee you are one of the people that are upset that the pirates dont have Jose Bautista anymore and consider him one of the “good players the pirates always trade away for prospects once they get good”
he would be a 20 HR hitter for the pirates. thats all anyone wants here and all throughout the media is power output numbers from a first baseman!! am i right or am i right??
No, you’re not. 20 HRs would be good, but if he sucks it up against LHP where in 230 PAs he hits 6 HR and OPSes Ronny Cedeno level, its not going to help anybody. Raw HR count is good, but not as good as SLG, OPS+ or wOBA.
and i almost guarantee you are one of the people that are upset that the pirates dont have Jose Bautista anymore and consider him one of the "good players the pirates always trade away for prospects once they get good"
and I almost guarantee he’s not one of those people.
by BurgherKing on Feb 10, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
You are way off base here
I think the decision to get rid of Bautista (the final decision, not the ones that screwed with his development over the course of 3-4 years and a few teams) was defensible. Who could have know that he would finally either listen to his hitting coaches, or finally have it taught to him in a way that clicked, or however you view what happened when he hit Toronto. Off base with whatever you were trying to say at the end as well. I post on here enough for you not to make blanket statements about what I believe.
As for the 20 HR guy that you so yearn for, you can have Adam Lind’s 2011, with 26 HR and a .315 wOBA, and I’ll take the 2011 Kotchman with 10 jacks and a .342 wOBA. For your 26 HRs, you get a guy who hit 5% worse than the average player (not 1b) and I’ll take the guy who hit 25% better than that average (wRC+). There is much more to production than HRs. Weighting the 20HR threshold as the gold standard for 1b seems a silly thing to do.
and yeah he cant hit lefties
So now it boils down to the fact that you prefer either a platoon player, or a guy who you run out full time, though he has shown little skill to hit LH pitching over an obvious upgrade in the rotation?
but cant improvements be made with his stance and approach with instructions from a HITTING COACH!!! isnt that what their job is, to COACH AND TEACH HITTING TIPS AND MAKE IMPROVEMENTS on players flaws?
To a point, yes. But the greatest hitting coach in the world wasn’t going to turn Jay Bell into Berry Bonds. Players have flaws and weaknesses. Coaches are paid to get the most out of players, but they can’t fix everything. Your statement implies that if only a team had the right coaches, no player would ever fail to reach, or surpass, their potential. At some point you have to realize that some players, like Jones, are what they are. And being afraid that they will get better when they move to a park more situated for their skill-set is something you can’t control and is definitely not a reason to quash a trade.
by Wizard of Woz on Feb 10, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
The more
I think about this, the more I want the Pirates to do this deal if the price is right. It’s swapping a hole for a hole, and this year is lost anyway. Burnett has immensely more upside than Jones, right? He still has elite stuff; he just has never harnessed it. It’s a complete shot in the dark, but Burnett could have a monster April – July and produce a fairly big return on the trade market, right? Am I insane?
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Feb 10, 2012 11:35 AM EST reply actions
not at all
and this is my line of thinking also. Jones doesnt have same upside at all. We will never be able to trade Jones for a good package. Burnett is he rebounds could absolutely fetch us important pieces
If that is the line of thought, I'm 100% okay with this deal.
If we are trading for Burnett for his on the field output, I’m against the deal as it is currently presented.
Should the Pirates keep Neal Huntington?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2011/5/16/2174135/poll-should-huntington-be-retained
well i mean
we are in a way. we are trading because we believe his on the field output will be good here (i strongly believe this) and in turn he then becomes very valuable to not so smart GMs. I could see some buffoon GM trading a significant piece for a revamped AJ Burnett because of his name recognition etc
its not terribly likely that Burnett will produce a big return
but I see his floor as a 1WAR improvement over Correia, and I’ll take that.
If he’s owed $4M/year and has a 4 ERA year, he should fetch something in the offseason/trade deadline, if we have someone to take his place.
Burnett is not going to harness anything at age 35, and his FB velo has declined but it’s still over 92, and that’s fine.
Also, as pointed out elsewhere, it is swapping a hole for a hole, but the SP hole is far greater than the 1B hole and 1B is far easier to replace.
by BurgherKing on Feb 10, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
The data at Fangraphs is interesting. His FB velo is down, but at 92.7 it’s still very good for a starter. JMac was in the NL top ten last year at . . . 92.7. Burnett’s curve is still a good swing and miss pitch and his K rate was very good. He’s a strong GB pitcher and his line drive rate is about what it’s always been. His issues in 2011 were almost entirely a very high HR/FB rate, some of which was probably Yankee Stadium. His xFIP was 3.86. He’d be moving to a weaker league, to a weak division that no longer has Albert or Prince.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
and would be facing pitchers and not DH'ers
thats gotta help some.
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Also . . .
I know there’s some concern that he’d be bummed being out of NY, but he played on mostly non-contenders or very peripheral contenders in TOR and FLA. Here’s his ERA per team:
NYY — 4.79
FLA — 3.73
TOR — 3.94
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
not surprising that the ERA numbers fall right in line with ballparks and division difficulty and team defenses.
at worst i think burnett posts a 4 ERA in his time with the Bucs but could see him doing better than that somewhere in the low 3 range
Also also . . .
With a manageable salary and a good first half, AJ becomes a potentially big deadline trade chip.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
the main point is
you guys. That by the time the trade deadline rolls around we should know if we are legit contenders (meaning that everything broke right Pedro already has 20 homers and we’re 10+ games above .500)
or the more likely scenario that we’re hovering around .500 and make a few trades to make us legit next year or years after
Either way – AJ Burnett helps us in either of those scenarios more than Garrett 1.2 proj WAR Jones
This.
I love GIJ but I’m really crossing my fingers here.
I’m actually probably willing to pay more salary than most on here – I’m just very convinced that Burnett’s peripherals will shine in the NL Central and PNC and he’ll easily be worth what plenty of people, myself included, wanted to pay to pick up Maholm’s option. And then he’ll be oh-so-flippable.
by tobynotjason on Feb 10, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
the fangraphs data is what i've been using
and mostly why i’m so encouraged. i’ve been on a soapbox about Mike Gonzalez too. They’re both perfect rebound candidates and would be great fits with our needs and then great pieces to trade at the deadline.
Just heard Heyman on the Fan
Said G. Jones isn’t in the deal and that the Bucs and Yanks are fighting over money. He thinks if the Yanks cover 23 of the 33 million on Burnett’s contract the deal will get done.
$5M per? That seems reasonable enough for a pitcher like Burnett, depending on what player goes back in return.
If the player's a throw in...
$5m is a freaking steal. If Maholm’s option was worth picking up (and I agreed that it was), $5m for a guy whose xFIP and SIERA were significantly better than Paul’s is a no-brainer. I’d pay more, actually, if the player is indeed a make-weight and not somebody with actual value like Jones.
by tobynotjason on Feb 10, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’m against this deal unless there’s some way to get Lars Anderson out of it.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
by WTM on Feb 10, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
dude
this is effing LARS we’re talking about. we’d have to cover hanrahan and give them a gift of an additional $5M.
Throw in Presley as well
and move Tabata back to LF. LARS can play 1B & RF simultaneously and bat twice.
by King Oskar on Feb 10, 2012 8:44 PM EST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
the Bucs and Yanks are fighting over money
What a wonderfully odd phrase to read.
by King Oskar on Feb 10, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
NorthSideNotch is listening to Heyman, and tweets
Heyman: Believes if deal gets done, Yankees will eat ~$23 million of $33 million left on Burnett’s deal.
Heyman on CBS: Thinks deal will get done eventually. Garrett Jones no longer on the trade table.
Heyman: Whatever player in return isn’t main issue for Yanks, it’s the money.
________________________________
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 10, 2012 11:46 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
sehr gut!
I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm. ~~ Mike Tyson
I'll be ecstatic if it goes through
But I don’t understand why the Yankees would do it to just save around $2.5M this year and either $5M (if they don’t tender Jones) or $1M (if they do tender Jones) next year.
If they’re trying to get below the luxury tax threshold, those won’t help much.
If we do end up needing another lefty 1B/OF type, Chris Carter is still available as a minor league FA. His 2012 ZiPS calls for a 96 OPS+ – that’s not great for a 1B, but could maybe work in a platoon with a RHB from the McGehee/Evans/Fox/Hague cluster.
The whole Jones end of it seems moot now, as all the reports are saying he won’t be in it.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
if this really just boils down to money...........
…….and not so much a player in return, where do you think the Yanks have to go in order for the Pirates to agree??
by Marooned Pirate on Feb 10, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Well, somebody (Rosenthal?) thinks NYY will pick up $23M in the end. Seems about right to me.
Occupy MLB! Down with Seligula!
we get 2 yrs. for 10 mil.
we just offered 10 mil. to e jax for 1 year. what a bargain, no jinx, no jinx, no jinx.
by karreemofwheat on Feb 10, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
wow! If those reports are true......
…..we would be on the hook for only a total of 10 million?? If that’s the case how do the Pirates not make it happen??
by Marooned Pirate on Feb 10, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
We should be running away from this guy
Some 2011 splits: 6.28 ERA away from Yankee Stadium; 6.85 ERA in the second half, with a .316 BAA against. Burnett could be released by midseason.
by sanny manguillen on Feb 10, 2012 12:39 PM EST reply actions
most players represent a risk to some degree........
…….and quite frankly the Pirates cannot spend the money on the more “sure” things. If, and that’s a big “if”, they can get Burnett for a total cost of 10 million over 2 years then it’s a no-brainer to me. The guy still throws in the low to mid 90"s and should give us close to 200 innings….
by Marooned Pirate on Feb 10, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Burnett could be released by midseason.
Yeah, but any one of us could be dead by tomorrow, so we wouldn’t need to worry about it.
Wait, who?
Do you know? Is this a front pager thing? Does SB Nation have some sort of database?
Can you give us a hint? Is it someone with a geographic location in their pseud? Someone with a (gulp) number?
I'm surprised...
I figured I’d be the only one reluctant to deal Jones for AJ. I think AJ is a decent (or good) fit for the Bucs but we shouldn’t have to give up much for him beyond taking on some salary. Since trading Jones would widen the hole at first without defnitively fixing the hole in the rotation, I’d hold out for a better deal on Burnett.
Admittedly I haven’t read the 300 posts ahead of mine yet.
My main point, however, is that I wish/hope the Bucs offered to overpay Edwin Jackson for at least a one year deal. The Bucs have a chicken/egg situation that needs to be fixed. This will likely require an overpay (not just a reasonable offer) and as we are again reminded of how tough it is to fill a need, I think that Jackson would’ve been a good overpay candidate.
Good day.
Look at it this way...
…some of the 10 – 12 mill we use to pay Burnett we are going to get from the Yankees anyway thanks to the salary tax. :-)
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bucs Dugout
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
