Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: ACC Power Rankings: 2.8

Stats Geek: Bucs Have a Chance

The Stats Geek thinks the Bucs have a chance in the weak NL Central.

I hate to keep repeating myself, and I hate to disagree with the Stats Geek, but arguments like the one he makes about the Bucs' 2006 season just drive me up the wall.

I don't want to blockquote the Stats Geek here because he uses a lot of words to make his point and so there are fair use issues, so I suggest you go read it and come back. If you won't, here's the gist: the Stats Geek disagrees with an oddsmaker who sets the Pirates' chances of winning the Central at 20-1. The Stats Geek thinks the Pirates can hang with the rest of the division because the team's 7-19 April was mostly the fault of players who ended up losing their jobs and aren't with the team anymore, and because no team in the division played winning baseball from the end of April to the end of the regular season.

There are a number of big problems with this argument.

First, every team has players who stink and lose their jobs after playing badly at the beginning of the season. The Pirates, of course, did an exceptionally stupid thing by throwing piles of money at Jeromy Burnitz and Joe Randa, and it was no real surprise when those guys were replaced by better players. It's true that there aren't any stupid Burnitz or Randa types of contracts this year. But any team starting the season with Chris Duffy, Jack Wilson and a Jose to be named later in its starting lineup, Tony Armas or B.P. Chacon and a bunch of relative youngsters in its starting rotation, Dan Kolb in its bullpen, and some combination of Luis Matos, Jose Hernandez, Humberto Cota and Einar Diaz on its bench should expect a bunch of players to fall apart. I'm not saying all those players will collapse, only that a few of them will be as bad as Burnitz and Randa were last year. They won't be paid as well, fortunately, but that isn't the point. The point is that the Pirates are still loaded with mediocre players.

Secondly, the Pirates weren't as bad in April as their record indicated, or as good after April as their record indicated. In April the Pirates scored 101 runs and allowed 138. Based on those numbers, their Pythagorean W-L would be somewhere between 9-17 and 10-16 (about 9.38 wins, to be more precise), rather than their actual 7-19. The issue was not just that the Pirates stunk then - although they did - but the fact that they lost six one-run games that month. Given that just about everyone associated with the Pirates seemed to have some sort of contractual obligation to mention their record in one-run games early in the season, I'm surprised the Stats Geek doesn't mention it here.

The Pirates also lost eight one run games in their disastrous May, and by the end of that month they were 19-34. Despite that, they had scored 251 runs and only allowed 261, showing that they were merely bad rather than horrible - even with several of the players the Stats Geek mentions as key offenders in the Bucs' awful April (Burnitz, Oliver Perez, Victor Santos) still occupying key positions on the team.

My point here, just in case your eyes are glazing over, is that it rarely makes sense to just toss out a month of baseball as if it doesn't count. The truth is usually a lot more complex than that. Sure, the Bucs were bad in April, but not nearly as bad as their record, and a lot of the bad luck they had evened out over the year. Also, it's true that some of their badness in April was due to the crappy players they depended on, but in May, the Pirates scored a bunch more runs (150) than they allowed (123) - while depending on many of the very same crappy players! In fact, the April and May Bucs - which still featured Burnitz, Perez and Santos in key roles - were actually much better from a Pythagorean standpoint than the June through October Bucs.

April and May: 251 RS, 261 RA
June through October: 440 RS, 536 RA

Winning more games than indicated by one's runs scored and runs allowed is not a skill - teams that win or lose more games than suggested by their runs scored and allowed tend to regress to the mean. So the Pirates' perceived improvement once the Burnitzes and Perezes were completely phased out was not actually an improvement at all. They won more games, but not because they were actually better.

Third, it is worth pointing out that, even if you throw out April, the Pirates would've finished fifth in the N.L. Central. They would've been six games back of the lead rather than 16, but still.

Fourth, even if we posit that the Central is likely to be as weak as it was last year - which is highly unlikely, simply because the division as a whole was so incredibly bad that it has to get better - other teams are better positioned to take advantage of that weakness than the Pirates are. Yes, the Pirates added Adam LaRoche. But the Brewers' young talent is much better than the Pirates' - unlike the Bucs, they have any number of players who could break out in a big way - and they should improve a lot simply by avoiding the ridiculous number of injuries they suffered last year. And everyone knows the Cubs threw $300 million at free agents last offseason.

In short, the Stats Geek's argument is simplistic and, in my view, overly rosy. Unlike me, he's got a word limit, so I understand that he's got to keep things short. What I don't understand is his conclusion that the Pirates could contend this year. Well, I'll concede that the Pirates could contend, but only in a Dumb & Dumber sort of way:

Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.

Sorry to rain on anyone's parade.

0 recs  |  Comment 15 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Stinky players
With all due respect to the Geek, who's usually right on the mark, he's tried the addition-by-subtraction argument before and it didn't work out too well.  After the 2004 season, he argued that the offense would improve just from the departures of Randall Simon, Chris Stynes and Abe Nunez.  In the end, the loss of these three helped the offense jump all the way from 680 runs in 2004 to . . . uh . . . 680 runs in 2005.  Instead of Simon, Stynes and Nunez, the main culprits were Tike Redman, Jack Wilson and Humberto Cota.  When you start from a very mediocre talent level, there are always going to be a few guys who fall apart on you.

by WTM on Mar 13, 2007 7:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I quibble a bit
Charlie,

while I agree with your overall premise(even the Stats Geek can drink a little kool-aid now and again), I would disagree with you on one point, which I think is of note.

" But the Brewers' young talent is much better than the Pirates' - unlike the Bucs, they have any number of players who could break out in a big way"

I don't believe this is true.  Certainly, Prince Fielder's ceiling is higher than any young hitter we put in; however, I would contend that the Pirates as much, if not more blue-chip talent as the Brewers, and much like the Brewers, it is unrealized as of yet.  The difference between the Brewers and Bucs is what they've done where they don't have blue-chip talent; for the brewers, they've carefully added good payers; for the Pirates, they've done absolutely squat.

by escroll on Mar 13, 2007 9:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

my point
and so my point is this: the Brewers have a better shot than the bucs at contention, not due to superior young talent, but because they have given that young talent an able supporting cast.  Thus, not as many things need to break favorably for the Brewers as for the Pirates.

by escroll on Mar 13, 2007 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm falling on the Stat Geek's side of the fence.
And not just because i'm hopelessly optimistic.  This division blows, plain and simple.  The Brewers probably have the most pure talent, I would agree with that.  But I don't think we are too far behind them.  If Duke, Snell, Maholm, Gorzellany, and Armas all throw 180-220 innings, this team is going to be real good.  The Cards' staff is an unmitigated disaster.  The Reds have two starters.  The Cubs rotation is going to be awful as well, unless you think Lilly and Marquis are going to magically become good (news flash: they were mud last year and will get rocked in Wrigley).  Sure, the Cubs put a lot of money into their team, but the only thing that got upgraded was their offense.  They will be the '05 Reds.  The Astros are once again going to struggle to score runs, and thier rotation is also paper thin and top heavy.  

We are going to have the best 1-5 starting staff in the division.  You can go ahead and mark that down.  And consistency in the rotation is what wins.  I'm not saying we'll win the division, but we're not going to finish 20 games out.  I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if we finished third in the division, about 6 games back, of Milwaukee, then either the Cubs or Cards.

by PGHcager on Mar 13, 2007 9:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Best 1 through 5 in the NL Central
We are going to have the best 1-5 starting staff in the division.  You can go ahead and mark that down.  And consistency in the rotation is what wins.

It's funny that you say that, because that's exactly the way I feel.  I recently heard Keith Law of Scouts Inc. on ESPN Radio.  He was arguing that the Phillies would win the NL East this season based solely on their rotation.  He said that through his research (which is expansive) he's found that the team that puts together the most consistent pitching staff 1 through 5 and avoids injuries will win a close division.  He set the "magic" number of combined innings between the original 5 starters at 800-850.  It seems pretty obvious, but apply the same principle to the Central...

-The Cubs can not and should not expect more than 100-125 innings from either Rich Hill or Mark Prior.
-The Astros' projected fifth starter at this point is Matt Albers, who has 15 major league innings pitched.  Not to mention that Woddy Williams is 40 years old and has dropped 30IP each of the last 2 seasons.
-The Cardinals are a mess.  MLB lists their rotation as Carpenter, Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Adam Wainwright and Braden Looper.  BRADEN LOOPER!
-The Reds have 2 good starters (Harang and Arroyo), one crappy one (Eric Milton) and then they're filling the rest with some combination of has-beens and never-will-bes.
-The Brewers actually have a pretty decent staff, depending on Ben Sheets' back and shoulder.

Can the Pirates depend on their starters to get near that mark?  I think of all the teams in the Central they have the best chance to do so...

by bryanzane on Mar 13, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen
"We are going to have the best 1-5 starting staff in the division."

Here's an amen from me.

by sisyphus on Mar 14, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Charlie, maybe YOU should go read it and come back
To earth.  

>here's the gist: the Stats Geek disagrees with an oddsmaker who sets the Pirates' chances of winning the Central at 20-1.

I don't see where Geek says they should be favored, or who should be worse odds.  I do see he says these things, and I hope I'm not using too much:

(85 wins is) not a number beyond belief for the Pirates if absolutely everything goes right.  It can't be called likely,  (Emphasis mine).

The Pirates look better on paper than the 2006 team, so let's entertain the notion that they can compete in this division because they already have. Kind of. Sort of. In a way.

Oh yeah, a ringing endorsement, that is.  I could post in a couple more things, but it sounds to me like this article is saying 'here's one way we can look at this.'  In my business this is called "whatif analysis."  Whatif we look at it this way?  Whatif my addition by subtraction theory comes to fruition this time?  That's all.

You are right that Geek's view here was simplistic, but so what?  And overly rosy?  He thinks they'll win more than 72 games, and that's about the only concrete thing he says about that.  I took his point to be more that, from, a betting perspective, the public/betting perception of the Pirates is probably more negative than it should be in relation to the perception of the rest of the division.

As for your arguments, I'm not a big fan of Pythag generally, and especially how you've used it with small sample sizes. (I've been planning a diary on it all offseason, I'll have to finish it).  Yeah, in May they went 150/123 RS/RA, but the last three games of that month were the first 3 of a 4 game sweep of Milwaukee to the tune of 32 runs scored and 5 allowed.  Don't throw them out, but at least see the month for what it was.

azibuck

by azibuck on Mar 13, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure...
what to reply to here. The basic idea of the article is that the SG thinks the Pirates' chances of winning the division are better than 20-to-1, and that, furthermore, they have a small but legitimate shot at winning the division. (I realize the SG probably didn't write the headline, but still, it was "Bucs Aren't a Bad Bet in Weak Division." I'm not sure where what I wrote that was inconsistent with that.

It's true that I didn't give the SG credit for the number of caveats in the article, but it certainly wasn't my point to make him look bad, and I explicitly told y'all to read the article because I was having a hard time blockquoting it without just quoting the whole thing.

by Charlie on Mar 13, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the plus side ...
Bodog sets the over for wins at 72. A certain poster here has the Win Meter (TM) at 73. Looks like the professionals pretty much agree with WM.

by bucdaddy on Mar 13, 2007 10:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Remember
Remember, though, that Bodog is not trying to determine how many wins the Pirates will have. The are trying to determine how many wins the average bettor thinks the Pirates will have.

by sisyphus on Mar 14, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HUSBAND????
What was all that 20-1 talk??

I don't think there are any good teams in this division.  I am hoping that just maybe we can suck the least and be in the mix at the end.

by WTNY on Mar 13, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What I Said
Hey guys,
I just wrote a long comment but it disappeared from the screen. Azibuck said most of what I would have said in reply, for which I thank him, but I would invite everyone to read the column in its entirety and quote from it freely without fear of repercussions. I don't think I advised anyone to bet the mortgage money on the Pirates winning the division and, in fact, I said the Brewers can win it if Ben Sheets stays healthy. If I had to pick a favorite, it's Milwaukee.
In a division filled with Lloyds, somebody has to get the girl. I just don't see the Pirates as far behind the rest of the division as the oddsmakers do. That's all. It's not a great team, for the reasons I mentioned today and others, but does anyone really want to argue it hasn't improved on paper from last April's squad?
I could go on, but I should just end by thanking everyone for the no-holds-barred critiques over the years. I think they've made me better, but, like the Pirates, I may always have a long way to go.
Play ball!

by stats geek on Mar 13, 2007 12:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stats Geek
Thanks for posting here. I'm sorry if you thought your argument was presented here in an incomplete way, but I never meant to suggest you were saying that anyone should "bet the mortgage money" on the Bucs.

I think the Pirates' chances are worse than 20-to-1, and I think it's rarely a good idea to throw out an entire month of the previous year's baseball as if it's irrelevant going forward. Those were my main points of contention with your article.

by Charlie on Mar 13, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reds
The division is so bad that the only team I'm willing to totally count out is the Reds. The Pirates are definitely a longshot, but not as long as you think, IMO. So put me down somewhere between you and the Geek.

by sisyphus on Mar 13, 2007 3:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pythag theory
For fans of Pythag Theory, I also have the runs scored/runs against for the division in the last five months of last year:
Cards   656-669
Astros  610-611
Reds    600-670
Brewers 597-715
Pirates 590-656
Cubs    607-722
No beauties these. None outscored the opponents, though the Astros just missed. If my math is right, the Pirates won one fewer game than their Pythag would have had them win in the period, even with all those late one-run wins.
Thanks for the use of the hall, Charlie.
 

by stats geek on Mar 13, 2007 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Around the Division - Second base
Natezack_small
Fun Facts about Milwaukee's Bud Selig Statue
Small
Brad Lincoln
Small
Around the Division - First Base
Small
Anyone sticking up for Nutting should read this...
Small
Roster transition
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group
Pittsburghalleghenys_small
SI Report: Pirates in on LHP Hisanori Takahashi
Downsized_1224092216a_small
Roberto movie
Red-necked_tanager_small
Never mind

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

FanGraphs on Spilts
2010 Pirates Draft Preview
Bryce Harper Embarks on Old College Try
Those Who Just Missed the BA Prospect Handbook
Mariners sign Ryan Garko
Your dreams of pretending to be Brendan Donnelly will remain unfulfilled
Rocco DeMaro's Broadcast from PirateFest
ESPN: The 17-year nightmare is almost over
Not a Big Deal, but Jackson & Claggett Clear Waivers
Chat with Tim Alderson this Friday

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SPONSORS


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie