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Trade Deadline Open Thread: 31 July 2007

UPDATE 4:12 PM: If Littlefield did nothing, that's simply negligent on his part - he could have traded Chacon at the peak of his value, months before he hit free agency, in a market that was favorable to teams trading relievers. Instead, he will get nothing for him. It was also dumb to not trade Marte.

It's certainly possible that he didn't trade those players because teams wouldn't make him real offers because of his reputation, but that's also his fault. Apparently Littlefield either believes he should stand pat with yet another last-place, 42-61 team, or he is unable to make trades.

UPDATE 4:04 PM I've still got nothing. Julio Mateo has been traded to the Phillies.

UPDATE 4:00 PM: Still nothing.

UPDATE 3:56 PM: Four minutes left. We may see no movement at all, or maybe just one trade.

UPDATE 3:51 PM: Ugh, this is excruciating... I'm going to be really upset if Shawn Chacon is still on the team nine minutes from now.

UPDATE 3:40 PM: Here's confirmation on what Vlad said in the comments, which is that Morgan Ensberg has been dealt to the Padres. Still nothing from the Pirates.

UPDATE 3:28 PM: The Braves have dealt young starter Kyle Davies for Octavio Dotel.

UPDATE 2:54 PM: Rob Mackowiak has been traded to the Padres for a minor leaguer.

UPDATE 2:44 PM: Eric Gagne to the Rangers for Kason Gabbard and another player, apparently. This could be the domino that allows the Pirates to trade relievers. We'll see.

UPDATE 2:20 PM: No news yet, but the Tigers and Pirates continue to talk.

The deadline is at 4:00 PM, in about three hours. There hasn't been much more movement since the last thread - the Red Sox sent reliever Joel Pineiro, who they'd designated for assignment, to the Cardinals for a PTBNL. And the Yankees dealt reliever Scott Proctor for infielder Wilson Betemit. Decent trade for both teams - I'm not sure what Proctor's problem is (his strikeout rate is way off from his solid 2006), but he should still help a Dodger bullpen that's been a mess recently. And the Dodgers, who have some good third base options, didn't have much use for Betemit, but he's a better player than you probably realize - this year, he's been downright good, with a 116 OPS+.

As far as the Pirates are concerned: the Post-Gazette and Detroit Free Press confirm the Jack Wilson-to-Detroit rumors. The Tigers might agree to a deal that includes Wilson as well as one of the Pirates' relievers.

Really, though, the Pirates' focus right now has to be on getting rid of these relievers, especially Shawn Chacon. They shouldn't let a potential Wilson deal trip them up. They can always trade Wilson in the offseason and, in fact, it might be easier to do so, since teams will have a better idea of how they can fit Wilson into their budgets once the offseason starts. All three relievers the Bucs might trade - Chacon, Damaso Marte and Salomon Torres - are at the peak of their value now, and they'll never get another chance to trade Chacon.

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Littlefield
I think that the Pirates are pretty much screwed with Littlefield behind the desk.  From where I see things, Proctor and Linebrink are being traded for semi-legit major league players and legitimate prospects.  I don't think other GMs want to deal with Littlefied, or they just flat-out ignore him until he gets desperate and gives them exactly what they want for less than they were willing to pay.

by bryanzane on Jul 31, 2007 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

proctor
Great move by the Yankees. I've never been a huge Betemit fan, but Proctor was used a lot last season and appears to be on the decline. And he was never that great to begin with.

Yanks could use Betemit to get a better pitcher than Proctor.

by bolton on Jul 31, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in non-pirate news
Eric Gagne is all but on the red sox. (from ken rosenthal)

by vanik on Jul 31, 2007 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

oops
Charlie beat me by a minute!

by vanik on Jul 31, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except...
Charlie thinks that Gagne is going to the Rangers, his old team. Silly Charlie!

by Willton on Jul 31, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mackowiak
Rob Mackowiak to the Padres for a PTBNL.
Via MLBTR (and Jayson Stark on ESPN's trade deadline show)
"Wait till next year... again" Win Or Go Home

by UtesFan89 on Jul 31, 2007 2:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gah!
Charlie beat me too!...
"Wait till next year... again" Win Or Go Home

by UtesFan89 on Jul 31, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ensberg also to San Diego
The Astros' take is as yet undetermined.

Nobody can accuse Towers of sitting on his hands, anyway.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rumors
Braves offering Yunel Escobar and Jo-Jo Reyes for Bronson Arroyo...
Dye to Boston all but dead.
Teix deal done, as is Dotel for Davies.
Gagne to Boston for 3 players, if Gagne says okay.
"Wait till next year... again" Win Or Go Home

by UtesFan89 on Jul 31, 2007 3:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Waiting for DL at the deadline...
...is like staring at the sun: equal parts boring and damaging.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 3:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.
It appears he's learned nothing from last year.

by Charlie on Jul 31, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is torture
Just freaking torture. Why do we continue to put ourselves through this?

by richaude on Jul 31, 2007 3:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You know I love you, baby.
So why you make me hit you all the time? Don't you know how much I hate to see you hurt?

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still time
I may be wrong, but wasn't the Ollie-Nady deal announced after the deadline passed?

by nick3849 on Jul 31, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes.
I think just minutes after. But when Littlefield was going down to the wire last year, there were still deals announced before 3:59 PM.

by Charlie on Jul 31, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.
Stuff can drift in for up to an hour after deadline, based on past years.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still time ... I think
I may be wrong, but wasn't the Ollie-Nady deal announced after the deadline passed?

by nick3849 on Jul 31, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Deadline
I think DL thinks the deadline is midnight, not 4pm.  Then he gets reminded with 5 minutes to go and scrambles to make deals.

Then it's Groundhog Day all over again the next year.

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re Betamit
If we're going to collect Dodgers and ex-Dodgers for Tracy, why can't we get the decent ones?

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's 4:20.
I think we can safely put this one in the books.

What a disappointment, eh?

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 4:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Unless...
This fiasco puts the last nail in DL's tenure as GM.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilson is traded in August - can't imagine anyone would put a waiver claim in for him.

by OmarMoreno18 on Jul 31, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't care about Wilson...
...I wanted to cash in the relievers.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too...
As we all likely suspect he probably asked for too much and no one would bother even listening.

If we're stuck with what we have, and DL is gone next year, I'll take it as a successful trading deadline.

by OmarMoreno18 on Jul 31, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bright spot
At least this will help the drive for 82 wins.
Or 72 wins.
Or maybe 62 wins.
Well, at least we have 42.

by bolton on Jul 31, 2007 4:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey Dave, was it the snooze?
Are we sure Littlfield got out of bed this morning?  It reminds me of that Seinfeld episode with the alarm clock snafu...

Nutting: (pause) So what happened? The snooze alarm, wasn't it?
DL: Man, it wasn't the snooze. Most people think it was the snooze, but no, no snooze.
Nutting: AM/PM.
DL: Man, it wasn't the AM/PM. It was the volume.
Nutting: Ah...the volume.
DL: Yes, the volume. There was a separate knob for the radio alarm.
Nutting: Ah, separate knob.
DL: Yes, separate knob. Why separate knob?! Why separate knob?! (frustrated)
Nutting: Some people like to have the radio alarm a little louder than the radio.
DL: Oh, please, man, please!

by gg on Jul 31, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bright Spot II
Is it time to officially say that by some miracle we hosed the Braves out of Laroche, for what that's worth? Looking at what they had to unload for a first baseman today, I mean.

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But
Look at how the teams have reacted since that point. The Braves are contending and did something rectify both situations - they made moves to improve the team. The Pirates - well they waited and LaRoche hit a little bit, but they still suck. You can look at a move in isolation to determine is someone won a trade or not, but that one move should be considered in the whole flow of a season. Losing LaRoche didn't hurt the Braves. Losing Gonzalez made the Pirates select Daniel Moskos (apparently) and did nothing to improve the team by adding LaRoche.

by Greg Schuler on Aug 1, 2007 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dealin' Braves
send Ledezma and minor-league P Will Startup to SD for Royce Ring. ... Phils get Julio Mateo from M's to shore up pen, give up AA infielder Jesus Merchan. ... Pirates MIA.

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 4:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Explain yourself Charlie
That's sounds too confrontational and I don't mean it that way.  But you (and many others) have only very recently allowed yourself to admit Chacon has been OK this year.  Before that, he was BP.  He was unworthy.  It was cover-your-eyes time when he entered the game.

What exactly was Littlefield supposed to get for him?

Betemit?  Chacon is only slightly better than Proctor this year (by ERA+), and Proctor was money last year.  If the Dodgers truly had a choice between Chacon or Proctor for Betemit, you can't argue with choosing Proctor.

Chacon is not in Linebrink's class.

Chacon might have brought a middling prospect, but if I listened to you talk about BP, I'd doubt he'd yield that.

If the answer is he should have moved BP "for anything", I'd disagree, because I doubt he'd accept arbitration.

I can see saving Marte for an offseason deal, perhaps so someone will also take Wilson off our hands.

I guess my problem is with calling DL "negligent" just for not trading him at all.

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 4:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It is Chacon
and Marte, Torres, Wilson, Nady etc

We have some people that could help other teams and can't help us.  SOMEONE should have been dealt for a prospect.

by The New Guy on Jul 31, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chacon
What exactly was Littlefield supposed to get for him?

Anything? Any A-ball prospect with even the slightest chance of helping the Pirates in the future?

by Charlie on Aug 1, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remain Patient
On Jack. Even though it's 4:49, I heard that it was a done deal - maybe some minor quibbling over details is delaying the announcement.

by SeanCollier on Jul 31, 2007 4:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Meh
Matty Mo comes rather cheap, but we didn't really need him. Both teams lose this one.
Dave Littlefield's shit doesn't work in the regular season

by Bukanier on Jul 31, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

rather cheap?
hopefully, the Giants will pay for part/most of Morris' salary next year.  

stats-wise, Morris seems a lot like Zach Duke this year -- very hittable and mediocre at best....

by humbucker on Jul 31, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, we were buyers all along
Of course.  Why didn't I think of that?

by gg on Jul 31, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cheap?
$9.5M next year with an escalator to $11M in '08 and a $9M option for '09? This for a guy who's been a below-average pitcher for four years? Oh, wait, I forgot. I'm sure Colborn will straighten out whatever's wrong with him. ... This appears to be a white flag for every starter we have at AAA. I mean, if putting Armas back in the rotation wasn't already. But then, I guess I'm the guy who's been saying all along that if you have a decent rotation and can just plug in a Josh Fogg-type at No. 5 you can do pretty well.

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 5:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Morris
Matt Morris will be traded from the Pirates in August.  They're just going to flip him because with a $9.5m salary no one will claim him off waivers and he'll clear, just like Jack...

by bryanzane on Jul 31, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No money for Morris
Chris Russo of WFAN (a Giants fan) just reported that the Giants are not paying any of Morris' salary.

It looks like DL took someone elses salary dump.

by BenM on Jul 31, 2007 5:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Morris, OK
I'll bite.  The money is no object, we, ahem, they have it.  He's been around league-average for a few years now.  He's better than Fogg.  I'd rather have 1.5 or 2.5 years (or less, if traded again) of Morris than 4 or 5 years of Suppan or Meche at more money.

As long as the PTBN isn't anybody worth anything, it's a fine move for an org without pitching depth.  "Fine" meaning sensible, nothing wrong with it.  Not franchise-altering, or even good.

I like our rotation better today than I did yesterday, how about that?

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 5:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Faint praise
And I'm guessing Rajai heads west with instructions to have a fearsome collision in the outfield with BB before that five-game cross-country series with the Gints in two weeks.

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Opportunity cost.
Morris is making more than $10M next year (plus incentives), if you count the buyout on his '09 option.

This offseason, would you rather sign Morris to a one-year deal for $10M, or use that money as a significant down payment for an impact bat?

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or...
...to draft something other than a #5 starter or LOOGY in the first round.

by matskralc on Jul 31, 2007 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why one or the other?
I doubt this is the argument you were looking for, but why shouldn't we get both?  If this is what pitching costs, this is what is costs.  I'd rather pay it for a short time with a journeyman-ish Morris that get stuck with a long term deal.

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK
If we still have money left over after buying an impact bat, why not buy another impact bat instead of a #4/#5 starter?

Regardless of how much money we have to spend, if we spend the money wisely we're going to run out of money before we run out of non-Morris things to spend it on.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Incredible
Just mind-numbingly incredible.

by matskralc on Jul 31, 2007 5:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was looking for your thoughts elsewhere
Looking to acquire Morris in the first place is mildly understandable; he is an acceptable pitcher with flashes of good stuff.  But how do you not ask for (hell, demand) cash coming the other way?  If you're Dave Littlefield, how do you think it's all right to take on another team's awful salary at this point?

by TotalEnd98 on Jul 31, 2007 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The salary is mostly irrelevant...
...these, however, are not:

BB%, K%, HR%

Morris: 6.5; 12.1; 2.0
Duke: 5.3; 7.9; 2.4
Armas: 9.4; 15.9; 3.9

He's not much better than either of our two disasters. His ERA looks good because A) he's given up 13 unearned runs (his RA is something like 5.09 this year) and B) the Giants have a defense that can turn batted balls into outs. The Pirates do not.

I think this rivals the Aramis Ramirez trade in sheer stupidity.

by matskralc on Jul 31, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh come on
You must just be overstating to make a point.  Take the salary out for just a second, and tell me you'd rather have Rajai (Effing) Davis than Matt Morris?  I'm not pleased to have the Pirates pay it, but as long as the PTBNL is not of consequence, this deal isn't stupid, let alone stupid like the ARam deal.

Armas cost $3M this year.  Chacon more than that.  This is what Morris is worth.  Not his value, his worth.

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's pretty stupid
In a market where teams were falling over themselves to throw prospects at relief pitchers (a market where we had two relievers in Marte and Torres that some teams had the absolute hots for), Our Beloved Leader went out and got a crappy, over-the-hill, expensive #4 starter we don't need to "bloster" our sorry ass rotation and further hamstring any financial flexibility we may have had (however self-imposed our financial restrictions are). I don't care if the PTBNL is my mother, Littlebrain got absolutely fleeced.

by matskralc on Jul 31, 2007 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Non-sequitur
Are we talking about Morris, or the inability or unwillingness to move a reliever or three?

by azibuck on Aug 1, 2007 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What if
The Player To Be Named is Bixler, for example. Or Jason Delaney. Or even Brad Corley? The Pirates don't have enough prospects to begin with and trading any of them is useless.

Say the two players to be named are Todd Redmond and Romulo! For most teams, you can stomach the loss of two okay pitching prospects. Not the Pirates - the organization is bare at all levels in terms of pitching.

by Greg Schuler on Aug 1, 2007 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just had a horrible thought
Could Gorzo's arm be way worse than anybody's saying? (Always a possibility with the Pirates). I mean, could it be "out the rest of this year and all next year" bad?

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 5:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gorzo
I hope not, I'm guessing it's more like "JVB doesn't know how to pitch because we never taught him how to do so."

Also, I still think Morris will be traded again within 3 weeks...

by bryanzane on Jul 31, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really hope you're right
It makes no sense that the Pirates would do that (or that anybody else in MLB would let them instead of taking Morris the first time themselves), but then it also makes no sense that the Pirates would draft a LOOGY with their #1 pick, or trade for Morris in the first place, or not teach a #1 pick how to pitch, or keep extended Littlebrain, or...

by matskralc on Jul 31, 2007 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

rajai
First of all, acquiring Morris only makes sense if the Pirates are trying to avoid getting the No. 1 pick in the draft. And, I suppose, the Pirates might consider him a key cog in the drive for 81 wins in 08.

But aside from believing this trade to be pointless, I think we gave up too much. If it's true that the Giants aren't picking up any of Morris's contract, there's no reason the Pirates should have traded anything more than some 24-year-old reliever in A-ball. The Giants just wanted to dump that contract. Rajai Davis isn't a great prospect, but players with speed and the ability to play center field have value.

by bolton on Jul 31, 2007 6:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Depression
To quote Steel City G from WHYGAVS, "10 million on Matt Weiters, nope, 10 million on Matt Morris, yes sir."

If that's not the most depressing thing you've read all year I don't know what is.

Although, the fact that Morris was winless with an ERA over 8 in the last two months would be up there.

Also, Giants GM Brian Sabean quotes in an ESPN article:

"Almost at the 11th hour we were talking to two other teams I would consider competitors in the playoff situation. Pittsburgh stepped up, not only to take on the player as is -- meaning the contract -- but the potential return," in Davis, Sabean said."

Boy looks like he was surprised that the Pirates were willing to pay the full contract now wasn't he.

And to round out the superfecta, just take a look at all the prospects thrown around today for relievers like Marte, Torres, and Chacon. And then see who we got... no one.

Forget Yanks-Red Sox, as far as I'm concerned the biggest rivalry in baseball is Pirates Front Office vs. Pirates fans.

by NAS on Jul 31, 2007 9:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And we should swallow Sabean's line whole?
If there are Giants bloggers and commentors whooping it up because they got Rajai Davis, the Giants must be more sad-sacked than the Pirates.  Let me translate Sabean's comment:

"We think Morris has lost it and we're glad to be off the hook for his deal.  I don't know Davis's first name or anything about him, but we got a warm body, and that's more than I thought we'd get."

by azibuck on Jul 31, 2007 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's really weird...
...that so many of the people who were happy to see us downgrade from Jack to Izturis at short in order to create financial flexibility are also happy to see us blow that hypothetical financial flexibility on a low-ceiling, high-risk guy like Morris.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2007 11:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe one of you guys
who pay close attention to the minors can tell me who the Giants plug into their rotation now. They have three pretty good young starters (Lincecum, Lowry and the unlucky Cain) and would have a very good rotation if a) Zito gets straightened out and b) they have some stud at AAA that moving Morris clears a spot for. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather roll the dice on their rotation than ours.

Their ancient everyday lineup is another matter entirely.

by bucdaddy on Jul 31, 2007 11:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

espn/stark's take on the swindle
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2956465

The Giants' brass was sitting around its suite Tuesday morning, bemoaning the fact that it had no decent deals cooking whatsoever. And then, out of the blue, it happened. The Pirates called. And wanted Matt Morris. His 7.94 ERA since mid-June? Not a problem. That $9.5 million he's owed next year (not counting his $1 million 2009 buyout)? Not a problem. And so they swooped in and finished off a deal for Morris minutes before the deadline -- for a legit prospect (Rajai Davis), a second prospect to be chosen from an agreed-upon list and absolutely zero money changing hands...Don't get us wrong here. We love Matt Morris. Terrific guy. Has had a wonderful career. Should be a fine mentor to those young Pirates starters. But the Giants were just about begging teams to take Morris and offering to chomp big chunks of his money if they had to. Then this team going nowhere dropped out of the sky and took the man and the money. What a country. "That move," said one incredulous front-office man, "is so far out of left field, it's in the Monongahela."

by vherub on Aug 1, 2007 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He had me at "Hello"
But lost me at "legit prospect (Rajai Davis)".

by azibuck on Aug 1, 2007 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Legit
If you had just heard that a pathetic team took on a vet and all the cash they did, wouldn't you assume it's for a legit prospect too?
I know I would... why else would you take on a vet (when your team is going nowhere fast) and all $15 million or whatever?
"Wait till next year... again" Win Or Go Home

by UtesFan89 on Aug 1, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess it's relative.
If the Giants had drafted Davis and were promoting him from within, he might be their best position prospect since Pedro Feliz.

I mean, I think Frandsen's better, but the larger point remains: Their hitter drafts have been so poor under Sabean that anybody with even ONE plus tool looks pretty good in comparison to the other stiffs.

by Vlad on Aug 2, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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