New York Mets vs. Pittsburgh, 14 August 2007

by Charlie on Aug 14, 2007 4:26 AM EDT in News Comment 31 comments

7:05 PM, FSNP, WPGB

Orlando Hernandez (7-4, 3.05) vs. Ian Snell (7-10, 3.87).

The Post-Gazette reports that Josh Phelps could play a key role on next year's bench.

"He looks more and more like a real nice piece on the bench," manager Jim Tracy said...

Phelps has done a lot of catching in the bullpen since joining the Pirates.

"He looks terrific receiving the ball," Tracy said.

What about the other stuff, though? Blocking balls in the dirt? Throwing out would-be base stealers?

"That might not be pretty," Tracy conceded. "But I'm not expecting miracles. I'm really not. But this guy completely understands the environment and his role. He gets it. That's what you love about the guy. He's a pro."

And professionals generally make pretty good bench guys.

Quick, which sentence tipped you off to the fact that it was written by Paul Meyer? Yeah, professionals definitely make good bench players. Like Abraham Nunez, pinch-hitter extraordinaire.

Anyway, call me crazy, but if Phelps is going to be on the 2008, wouldn't it behoove the Pirates to give him more than 30 at bats in two months to actually see what he can do? If the Pirates might use him as a backup catcher, wouldn't it be a good idea, in the midst of a last-place season and with a starting catcher who has absolutely killed them, to let Phelps actually catch a few games?

Not that I'm surprised, but the way the Pirates are behaving is really irresponsible - they're acting like a contender rather than the last-place team that they are. In the last two weeks, they've traded for Matt Morris' contract, refused to deal free-agent-to-be Shawn Chacon, and entertained the possibility that Phelps and Ryan Doumit will have expanded roles on the 2008 team without, you know, actually expanding their roles on a long-lost 2007 team.

If Doumit is really the right fielder of the future - and the Post-Gazette has written many times recently that the Pirates are thinking about this - then why was Doumit not playing every day as recently as a week ago, by which point Xavier Nady had already missed a week due to injury? And why am I positive that Doumit will be back on the bench when Nady returns?

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Phelps

Caught the second game of yesterday's doubleheader. He was acceptable but nothing more, unable to throw out runners or do anything spectacular, but guarded the play well, including a nice play at the plate to get a runner one out before Klesko's explosion. Don't know if he could play everyday, but I already like him more than Paulino.

by SeanCollier on Aug 14, 2007 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree

With Sean on the Phelps assessment. He doesn't look like he can throw anybody out. But then, when's the last time our starter did?

There must be some psychological term for what the Pirates are doing. The long definition is "overwhelmed by mediocre choices but insistent on adding more."

by bucdaddy on Aug 14, 2007 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Phelps' non-play at C set up the grand slam

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=270813223

I wasn't impressed with Phelps as a catcher. I think that the only reason Phelps caught game 2 was because Doumit got injured in the first game of the doubleheader. If you give the other team four outs in an inning, that'll come back to bite you more often than not.

by humbucker on Aug 14, 2007 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hate to agree with Tracy, but it's Youman's fault

From the article you link to:

"We gave them four outs," Pirates manager Jim Tracy said. "I don't know what happened. The changeup he (Youman) threw fooled Josh. Josh did the right thing by holding onto the ball."

Youman hesitated before throwing home too, then threw this "changeup" that was somewhat high and away. I can't blame Phelps for being sure of one rather than try to quickly make the tough catch AND step out awkwardly and make the throw to first. Should have been two, no doubt, but it was Youman's fault.

by azibuck on Aug 14, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I noticed that too

And sitting in the stands, I imagined this conversation:
Phelps: Why didn't you throw me your fastball?
Youman: That WAS my fastball.

by bucdaddy on Aug 14, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

I saw the play on TV and it clearly was Youman's fault. He hesitated and then made a weird, looping throw to Phelps. I doubt if Phelps had time to get the guy at first. The catcher on that play has to take a couple steps out in front of the plate to avoid throwing the ball into the runner. If he hurries the throw, the ball probably ends up in the RF corner.

In the article on the official site, Youman seemed to accept the blame for the play.

by WTM on Aug 14, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a clarification...

certainly, Youmans put the runners on base and later served up the grand slam, not Phelps. and certainly, Youmans did throw kind of a weird "changeup", but Phelps' reaction to it certainly contributed to the ensuing grand slam.

my point is, any MLB player who is fooled by a changeup as the catcher (as opposed to 'as a hitter') probably shouldn't be catching a major league game. (I'd make exceptions for someone catching a knuckleball pitcher, and emergency catchers due to injury... which may exonerate Phelps, depending on Doumit's injury.) of course, we could also argue that there are many players on the Pirates' roster who shouldn't be playing at the major league level...

by humbucker on Aug 14, 2007 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If this were the case

Then what's the point in the catcher and pitcher agreeing on what pitch to throw before he throws it? Here's a hint: it's not all about game strategy.

by matskralc on Aug 14, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No no no

It wasn't a pitch. The batter hit a one-hopper back to the mound, and Youman sort of double clutched and then tossed a rainbow to Phelps at the plate for the out. Phelps therefore had no chance to turn two, and the rest, as they say, is history.

by bucdaddy on Aug 14, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, yeah

humbucker, though, made a somewhat off-topic remark that it should be impossible for a major-league catcher to be fooled by his own pitcher. That's utter nonsense.

by matskralc on Aug 14, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad.

Based on Tracy's comment, I had assumed that the "change-up" in question referred to an actual pitch, as opposed to a poor defensive throw. I apologize for making a poorly informed comment.

That said, is there any doubt that Phelps' non-play at least helped to set up the ensuing slam? There's no way that a real Major League catcher (say, Tony Pena in his prime) would have been fooled by that "change-up".

by humbucker on Aug 15, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Phelps as a catcher.

One thing that makes me worry about him as more than an emergency guy there: He's awfully tall. He's listed at 6'3", but I think he might be taller, and he's got the broad frame too. How would he handle all that bending and squatting for 30/40 games a year, at this point in his career?

by Vlad on Aug 14, 2007 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Subject

The reason he moved out from behind the plate was defense (and probably for some of the reasons you listed).

Really, he catches the ball well. Great, but that's not all a catcher does. It wouldn't hurt to carry a guy like Phelps on the roster - it might actually help. If he can catch, great. Otherwise, the Pirates need to find a catcher in the off-season if Doumit is now ensconced permanently in the OF.

If the Pirates regard Paulino as the de facto starter, then they will carry three catchers next season - otherwise Tracy will never use Phelps and be left catcher-less on the bench.

by Greg Schuler on Aug 15, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Professionals

And professionals generally make pretty good bench guys.

It may have something to do with the fact that amateurs don't get paid.

by WTM on Aug 14, 2007 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Playoff race

They are playing the rest of this year as if they can't afford to lose one more game than necessary. Why not call up Eldred and play Doumit everyday. Heck try Phelps at 3B. DL must be trying like crazy to avoid 100 losses. As if there is any difference between 95 and 100 losses.

by Travis on Aug 14, 2007 7:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Eldred is useless...

...but I agree with the rest.

by Vlad on Aug 14, 2007 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeff Cox

Sure has turned into a real ninny tonight.

by matskralc on Aug 14, 2007 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

BP Chacon

Doing his best Shawn Chacon impersonation.

by matskralc on Aug 14, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Pirate Scouting

So...The Pirates have uncovered a gem that the Yankees deemed worthless...What's his age again?? Bats well??? Apparently not even back up DH material. Lets get real. Not on the Yankees bench at his age, why in the heck does he fit at all on ours?? And Eldred???? Shouldn't even be on the 40 man. What is he 28? and hasn't learned to see an off speed pitch? Let's enter a new paradiam. Keep only players good enough for your competition. While we are at it lets use the Minors for player "development", not a storehouse of .230 hitting Major League 30 year olds. Or rehapping 27 yearold pitchers. I'm just saying...

by Doug Froebel on Aug 14, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Yankees...

...are rich, not omniscient.

by Vlad on Aug 14, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Help

Nice word selection. Please enlighten as to the meaning. Would multiple years of success, both grooming, evaluating and paying for the best talent have anything to do with that? Money really helps agreed. But I only remember Craig Wilson being the only Pirate cast away picked up or coveted by the Bombers. If money is the be all end all of sucess...lets be the Yankees of AAA ball. If not, compete or get out! Oh thats right, it's just entertainment, a soap opera looking for ratings. So lets just realize the Pirates are not in it to win. Just like politics are sold to us, lets blame finance. Oh whoo is the 'Burgh. Its all fixed like the NBA. Big Markets win, big ratings. More cashola for the frat of owners. The sport is dead. Just a little honesty is all I ask. Until Pittsburgh grows into a top 10 t.v. market the bucs are doomed. The best way to improve the Pirates is to grow the metro region. MLB hates bad ratings in a significant market. Prediction: Mexico City will be awarded a franchise and win a world series before the Pirates do.

by Doug Froebel on Aug 15, 2007 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about looking up coherence?

by azibuck on Aug 15, 2007 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please enlighten as to the meaning.

Just because the Yankees didn't think Phelps was worth having on the roster, doesn't mean that he isn't worth having on the roster. Being rich doesn't automatically make you smart.

You can win with a small metro market (Cleveland and Milwaukee aren't giants, for example). You just have less margin for error. If you put your house in order, the wins will come.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mexico City

Mexico City is never going to have a team until they solve the Coors problem. The altitude issues in Colorado are nothing by comparison...

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

here's a couple from the last few years

But I only remember Craig Wilson being the only Pirate cast away picked up or coveted by the Bombers

enrique wilson
john van der wal
ron villone

i'm sure there's more than i can't think of off the top of my head

by johnnycuff on Aug 15, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few more...

B-R's multi-franchise player sorter is awesome.

Kenny Lofton
Matt Lawton
Dan Miceli
Esteban Loaiza
Jon Lieber
Darrell May
Denny Neagle
Joe Oliver
Al Reyes
Tony Womack

That's everybody since 2000.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Going Foward

Who can tell me which of our starters could likely actually start for one of the top 8 teams in the Majors. Further do the Pirates have 3 pitchers who could possibly be better than the top 24 in the majors? Untill I am convinced otherwise, I see the Bucs as YEARS away from being even close. It's kinda sad, I was thinking we were only a number 5 starter and a real centerfielder away.

by Doug Froebel on Aug 14, 2007 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Snell and Gorz could.

Most teams could use another starter with an ERA under 4.

You're right about the "years away from contention" thing, though.

by Vlad on Aug 14, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Given

Ok.. so the Bucs have two, although at this point 1 year wonders... that would crack the staff of one of the top 8 maybe teams?... realism is all I ask, lets try the top 4 teams... still think that they would be better than a number 4 starter on those teams? We need to be realistic, the Pirates are the best AAA team in the Majors. I think Dwight Gooden said the same thing long ago.

by Doug Froebel on Aug 14, 2007 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's see:

By wins, the top four teams in baseball right now are Boston, Anaheim, the Yankees, and Arizona.

Boston's top four starters are Beckett, Matsuzaka, Schilling, and Wakefield. I think Boston would probably take either guy over Wakefield, and if not for the whole bloody sock thing (i.e. if you look at it on a pure merit basis) they'd probably take Gorz over Schilling.

The Yankees' top four starters are Wang, Pettitte, Clemens, and Hughes. All four are probably locked in right now. If you'd asked two weeks ago, though, the #4 would've been Mussina, and both our guys are clearly better than him. As with the Schilling thing, Gorz is probably better than Clemens right now, but Clemens is making umpty-gazillion dollars, so there's zero chance he'd get booted.

Anaheim's top four are Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, and Saunders. Both our guys are probably better than Saunders, and I think Weaver is pretty much a push there.

Arizona's rotation is an absolute shambles right now; they're starting two guys who they claimed on waivers last week, and Livan Hernandez hasn't been able to get anybody out since the ASB. Both Snell and Gorz would easily make that staff.

by Vlad on Aug 15, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So Close

Ok..agreed..our best 2 starters MIGHT belong as a number 4 on a real team. That only leaves the Battlin' Buccos 8 other starters short. Now if we can omly fill in the gaps.

by Doug Froebel on Aug 16, 2007 12:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs